Mists of Pandaria: All Specs - Page 8

Muphrid · 08/31/12, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Exoduz

Simulationcraft Results

theres the scales even close, but its not actual

when i try ist to scale myself with simcraft (v504-10) its crashed bei scalring the factors and i don't know why

Okay, I updated my spreadsheet with level 90 combat rating numbers, and based on that simcraft's parameters, I get these weights:

Hit: 0.902
SP: 1
Haste: 0.575
Crit: 0.484
Mastery: 0.459

Whereas simcraft itself seems to get these:
Hit: 1.846 (what?)
SP: 1
Haste: 0.616
Crit: .565
Mastery: .507

While I'm not entirely confident in my spreadsheet, I'm rather baffled with simcraft's high value on hit. The best I can figure is that it may be due to misses influencing procs, which is something I don't yet model. Still, the value seems like something that's way off in space.

JohnnyQuest · 08/31/12, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Pyryte

If you have the heating up proc, it takes into account YOUR NEXT SPELL CAST to get hotstreak. What this means is, if you have the heating up proc and are then mid cast fireball, even if you inferno blast after the fireball finishes casting, and even if your inferno blast hits the mob before fireball, the fireball is still the spell being looked at to see if you get a hot streak proc.

I don't have anything useful to add regarding finding out what the problem is (and I am very skeptical that there is any bug) but I can guarantee that the above is not what is happening. It's very simple to test as well, and what you are saying seems to be impossible to replicate.

Stand far enough away from the dummy that your 1st Fireball is still travelling when you start casting your second.

Chain cast Fireballs. When Heating Up procs, as soon as your next Fireball is done follow up with an IB - Pyroblast! will proc the instant you hit IB. Literally as soon as you hit the button. It is that fast, there is no lag whatsoever. Regardless of what your next Fireball is doing, or will do, you will force that Pyro! proc.

There are situations where sometimes your next Fireball will land before you can cast IB, such as if you are 5 or less yards from your target. Spamming the hell of IB will get you ahead most of the time, unless you are right on top of the target.

DTR will also mess with your procs, a lot, but that is not unexpected.
The direct damage portion of Combustion can also kill Heating Up if it doesn't crit.
Weaving in some Scorches can mess it up, although the game does seem to get confused and be happy to let IB trigger a Pyro! proc even after a non-crit Scorch landing "first" if you're quick with the clicks.

nonmortuus · 09/03/12, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Pyryte

EDIT: It's never a dps gain to stop casting that fireball by the way. If you were just doing that to see if it procs HS thats cool, but you should never stop casting that fireball to IB instead to get a HS proc.

Purely for testing purposes.

Kyrilon · 09/03/12, 1:24 PM

On 8/30, Ghostcrawler posted some changes to Frost spells:

-- We reduced the damage dealt by Glyphed Ice Lance to a second target to 40% of normal damage.

-- We increased the damage of Ice Lance by 12.5%.

-- We fixed a significant bug that was affecting Frost Mage damage. Frostfire Bolt was not benefitting from Frostburn (Mastery). After fixing that, we brought their DPS back down by reducing the damage boost that the Frostbolt debuff provides from 8% per stack to 5% per stack.

This would seem to have the effect of minorly boosting single-target DPS, but decreasing our multi-target DPS. However, after comparing level 85 target dummy tests between patch day and 9/1, I'm seeing significantly lower DPS both in single-target and multi-target scenarios. As in, I was seeing 45-48k DPS using FB-spread LB and glyphed IL on patch day, and now am seeing closer to 41k DPS. For the single target scenario (unglyphed IL and single-target LB) I was fighting to stay much over 31k DPS, where on patch day it was just a shade over 35k.

Questions:

Does SimC already reflect these changes? It is modeling my paperdoll at almost 36k for a Patchwerk-type fight.

Does SimC take glyphed IL into account on multi-target fights? Is there a specific profile I should be using to model this type of fight?

Kavan · 09/05/12, 2:01 AM

Just posting the arcane cycle analysis results if anyone needs.

0: AB0,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
1: AB0,ABar1.705652,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  
2: AB0,ABar1.705652,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  2=Arcane Missiles  
3: AB1,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
4: AB2,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
5: AB3,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
6: AB4,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
7: AB5,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
8: AB6,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
9: AB6,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
10: AB5,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
11: AB4,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
12: AB2,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
13: AB3,ABar0,AM++: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
14: AB1,ABar0,AM--: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage

00000 00002 00000: 34621.4740173171 dps, 3979.79540372265 mps = AB6AM
00020 00012 20220: 28092.6358316822 dps, 1033.84009213784 mps, 2.21620408156248 dpm tradeoff = AB6ABar1235AM
00200 00000 00001: 23152.7106656458 dps, -692.599165686916 mps, 2.86133737034022 dpm tradeoff = ABABar0AM

Danin · 09/06/12, 11:48 AM

I imagine the DPS difference is minor, but is it optimal to sit on AM charges (possibly wasting procs) until AB6 or to use them while ramping up?

Nathyiel · 09/06/12, 2:04 PM

sitting on 1 missiles for waiting another one can be good (I don't have check) but the 2nd can always be cast when it proc for 2 reasons:

losing another AM proc
AM is far better than AB and cost no mana.

I think that cast AM on react can be good because it delay a little the next AB and regen is running while channelling.

Timitz · 09/08/12, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Just posting the arcane cycle analysis results if anyone needs.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to differentiate between one and two AM! charges, or is that just too computationally expensive?

fateswarm · 09/09/12, 4:07 AM

Arcane Missiles is practically a free Arcane Blast that provides higher DPS.

1. It generates charges similarly to Arcane Blast

2. It also does not reset them

3. It has zero mana requirements unlike AB (in a spec that needs mana and an AB that devours it at 6 charges)

4. It provides higher DPS at all charges points.

There are only mechanical differences. For example Arcane Missiles can be used partially, perhaps proc more Spellweave-type spells; AB could be cast in conjunction with PoM on movement, etc.

Kavan · 09/17/12, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Timitz

Wouldn't it be more accurate to differentiate between one and two AM! charges, or is that just too computationally expensive?

Sorry for not coming back to this earlier. You are absolutely correct. It took a long time to run, but I now have the results for the full model.

0: AB0,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
1: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  
2: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  2=Arcane Missiles  
3: AB1,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
4: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  2=Arcane Missiles  
5: AB1,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
6: AB2,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
7: AB3,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
8: AB4,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
9: AB5,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
10: AB6,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
11: AB6,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
12: AB6,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
13: AB4,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
14: AB5,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
15: AB5,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
16: AB3,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
17: AB4,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
18: AB2,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
19: AB3,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
20: AB2,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
21: AB1,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  


00000 00000 02000 00000 00: 30237.4046843652 dps, 3490.92802305856 mps = AB6AM
00000 22000 12200 22200 00: 25614.4122383887 dps, 923.514941305582 mps, 1.80064224899652 dpm tradeoff = AB6ABar6AM
00000 02000 12002 22200 00: 25004.1684739813 dps, 631.676215716406 mps, 2.09103080194517 dpm tradeoff = AB6ABar56AM
00002 02000 12002 22200 00: 25003.4941337184 dps, 631.377838688789 mps, 2.26002741673966 dpm tradeoff
00000 22000 12002 22200 00: 25003.0418528764 dps, 631.197714558405 mps, 2.51093976718587 dpm tradeoff
00000 22000 12002 22200 01: 24161.1934220233 dps, 298.289745676967 mps, 2.52877224201541 dpm tradeoff = AB16ABar56AM
00000 22001 10022 02200 01: 23257.9027523271 dps, 6.26418258061972 mps, 3.09319040469827 dpm tradeoff = AB156ABar45AM
00000 02001 10022 02200 01: 23215.6156029371 dps, -6.57784743703633 mps, 3.29287109061851 dpm tradeoff
00000 02001 10022 00001 21: 22745.3768494524 dps, -143.870206093265 mps, 3.42509050093644 dpm tradeoff = AB1356ABar245AM
00000 22001 10022 00001 21: 22462.0060312781 dps, -214.499470768337 mps, 4.01208789979635 dpm tradeoff
00000 22210 00000 00001 21: 21539.9901988005 dps, -435.923394657226 mps, 4.16402986761368 dpm tradeoff = AB134ABar23AM
00020 20000 00000 00011 21: 20774.8458932208 dps, -605.273593983453 mps, 4.51811871863092 dpm tradeoff = AB123ABar12AM
00022 00000 00000 00011 21: 20687.0320023489 dps, -616.592266910672 mps, 7.75832038231122 dpm tradeoff
00212 00000 00000 00000 01: 20062.5472652032 dps, -674.733857599014 mps, 10.7407576874385 dpm tradeoff = ABABar0AMABar

The cycle names are a bit ambiguous, but I didn't want to complicate them even more. Except the very bottom cycle ABar is only used when there are no AM procs and the numbers before it indicate at what number of charges to reset. The number before AM indicates when to use AM with just 1 proc. There are several variants depending on when to use AM at 2 procs so refer to the full table if interested.

gunhound45 · 09/18/12, 4:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Sorry for not coming back to this earlier. You are absolutely correct. It took a long time to run, but I now have the results for the full model.

0: AB0,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
1: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  
2: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  2=Arcane Missiles  
3: AB1,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
4: AB0,ABar1.676834,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  2=Arcane Missiles  
5: AB1,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
6: AB2,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
7: AB3,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
8: AB4,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
9: AB5,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
10: AB6,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
11: AB6,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
12: AB6,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
13: AB4,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
14: AB5,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
15: AB5,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
16: AB3,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
17: AB4,ABar0,AM22: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
18: AB2,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
19: AB3,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  
20: AB2,ABar0,AM11: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  2=Arcane Missiles  
21: AB1,ABar0,AM00: 0=Arcane Blast  1=Arcane Barrage  


00000 00000 02000 00000 00: 30237.4046843652 dps, 3490.92802305856 mps = AB6AM
00000 22000 12200 22200 00: 25614.4122383887 dps, 923.514941305582 mps, 1.80064224899652 dpm tradeoff = AB6ABar6AM
00000 02000 12002 22200 00: 25004.1684739813 dps, 631.676215716406 mps, 2.09103080194517 dpm tradeoff = AB6ABar56AM
00002 02000 12002 22200 00: 25003.4941337184 dps, 631.377838688789 mps, 2.26002741673966 dpm tradeoff
00000 22000 12002 22200 00: 25003.0418528764 dps, 631.197714558405 mps, 2.51093976718587 dpm tradeoff
00000 22000 12002 22200 01: 24161.1934220233 dps, 298.289745676967 mps, 2.52877224201541 dpm tradeoff = AB16ABar56AM
00000 22001 10022 02200 01: 23257.9027523271 dps, 6.26418258061972 mps, 3.09319040469827 dpm tradeoff = AB156ABar45AM
00000 02001 10022 02200 01: 23215.6156029371 dps, -6.57784743703633 mps, 3.29287109061851 dpm tradeoff
00000 02001 10022 00001 21: 22745.3768494524 dps, -143.870206093265 mps, 3.42509050093644 dpm tradeoff = AB1356ABar245AM
00000 22001 10022 00001 21: 22462.0060312781 dps, -214.499470768337 mps, 4.01208789979635 dpm tradeoff
00000 22210 00000 00001 21: 21539.9901988005 dps, -435.923394657226 mps, 4.16402986761368 dpm tradeoff = AB134ABar23AM
00020 20000 00000 00011 21: 20774.8458932208 dps, -605.273593983453 mps, 4.51811871863092 dpm tradeoff = AB123ABar12AM
00022 00000 00000 00011 21: 20687.0320023489 dps, -616.592266910672 mps, 7.75832038231122 dpm tradeoff
00212 00000 00000 00000 01: 20062.5472652032 dps, -674.733857599014 mps, 10.7407576874385 dpm tradeoff = ABABar0AMABar

The cycle names are a bit ambiguous, but I didn't want to complicate them even more. Except the very bottom cycle ABar is only used when there are no AM procs and the numbers before it indicate at what number of charges to reset. The number before AM indicates when to use AM with just 1 proc. There are several variants depending on when to use AM at 2 procs so refer to the full table if interested.

Is there any chance of a beta Rawr client for 5.0.4 at either 85 or 90?

Kavan · 09/18/12, 9:54 PM

Originally Posted by gunhound45

Is there any chance of a beta Rawr client for 5.0.4 at either 85 or 90?

Still working on it, but hopefully it'll be ready for release.

A note on the above numbers, the regen is offset by about 1000 mps due to outdated data, so the second cycle is already mana regen.

Kavan · 09/22/12, 11:25 PM

Some more results regarding Arcane. It seems it's currently not worth using Evocation at all. That's the result from solver, but napkin math seems to agree.

AB6AM: 33706.72 dps, 2394.60 mps
neutral: 29181.92 dps, 0 mps
evocation: -15294 mps

Then in a fixed time interval A with mana adept 49.9% if we burn for x seconds we get total damage:

[1+(1-x*2394.60*0.5/105000)*0.499]* x * 33706.72 + 1.499 * [A-1.15657120439387995292271479011377*x] * 29181.92

Or simplified to

43743.7 * A - 191.792 * x^2 - 66.3283 * x

Unless you have Invocation it doesn't seem to be good to use Evocation. Of level 90 talents as far as my modeling shows it seems Rune of Power is best by a large margin. There could still be some errors in modeling so take this with a grain of salt.

Kavan · 09/24/12, 10:49 PM

It seems the root cause of the problem is not Evocation, but in the dpm conversion rate of cycles. Even if we have an instant restore of mana for infinite amount we'd still get:

[1+(1-x*2394.60*0.5/105000)*0.499]* x * 33706.72 + 1.499 * [A-x] * 29181.92 = 43743.7 * A - 191.792 * x^2 + 6782.68 * x

This is optimized at x=17.7, which is about 40% mana spent. So even if you have infinite mana restores it's never optimal to go under 60% mana under these numbers.

EDIT: It looks like this only applies at level 85, at level 90 the numbers seem a bit better.

tjyeee · 10/03/12, 6:25 PM

FROST SPEC RELATED

Hi guys,

I'm a starting mage in MoP, I used to play in wotlk a few years ago and recently I came back.
Anyway I have a few questions regarding the new talents and rotation, and I'd appreciate if anyone here could take a minute and answer me.

I've read the rotation guide in noxxic, and according to the guide, it says that I use Frostfire bolt as filter damage, "Finally, cast Frostfire Bolt as a filler spell." is that correct? cause I don't see how I benefit from using Frostfire bolt unless it is used with Brain Freeze, even though it does 1,748 damage the cast is longer than Frostbolt, so it just doesn't make sense to me.

Another question, which 90 level talent is better? Evocation for the +25% spell damage boost or Rune of Power for 15% spell damage, cause Evocation has a 1.50 minute cooldown and Rune of Power has none, it lasts for 1 minute and there's 6 seconds cooldown, hence no CD, as far as I'm concern.

And do I use Deep Freeze in boss encounters? because all bosses are immune to the freeze\stun effect, and I don't know if it does more damage than Ice Lance.

I'd appreciate your help guys, thanks in advance.

- P.S I'd like if anyone could take a moment and write down his rotation, just to help me