MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us - Page 2

Ilyawen · 10/24/12, 5:25 AM

Hey there. First off, thanks for getting the Fire Mage Compendium on track, its high time we get a place to discuss the specc again! I feel the overall level of knowledge we have about our class right now is lacking in a lot of ways, where most information is basically the same speculative information repeated over 3-4 guides. We really need to change that

Some initial points from me, on issues where I am looking for some answers still:

For the first tier of talents, I've often seen it repeated that PoM will be the best choice in a Patchwork-Style fight. Although technically true, it seems extremely unrealistic in the current game. Just for the sake of clarity, I think the assessment that PoM is best for stand-and-nuke fights should be broadened with information on how much time spent moving will be the breakpoint, making Scorch or IF preferable.

Additionally, I feel that Scorch has additional benefits over the pure movement-aspect. It is the best spell in the game to fish for HU-poccs right now. This can be highly relevant in high-pressure burst situations (e.g. Elegon), allowing you to prepare a Pyroblast with a high rate of success. This information could be added to the talent-choice section.
In the same vein, the talent-choice at Tier 6 right now seems confusing. Again, I think some theorycrafting is needed on the level of movement/incoming damage favoring the different talents right now. On a related note, the relative value of Invocation with rising levels of haste (shortening the time spent evocating) could be of interest.
Glyphs/Hastebreakpoints. You announced this to be something in the pipeline, yet I would again stress the need for reliable haste values. This holds true especially for Combustion. I would still like to see some updated theorycrafting on the value/drawbacks of the Glyph, also including the ease at which haste-points for glyphed/unglyphed Combustion can be reached.
Combustion in general: This is more of a playstyle-question, and thus maybe out of place here. But I still lack reliable information on what constitutes good conditions for a Combustion. The spell priority given in the Compendium now is a very good starting point, but right now, I haven't found a good explanation on the behavior of Ignite, and when precisely it is wise to cast Combustion, especially given the changes to it in 5.1.

These are just some points that I think might be valuable to look into. Keep up the great work everyone!

Calicia · 10/24/12, 7:44 AM

Originally Posted by Ilyawen

Additionally, I feel that Scorch has additional benefits over the pure movement-aspect. It is the best spell in the game to fish for HU-poccs right now. This can be highly relevant in high-pressure burst situations (e.g. Elegon), allowing you to prepare a Pyroblast with a high rate of success. This information could be added to the talent-choice section.

In the same vein, the talent-choice at Tier 6 right now seems confusing. Again, I think some theorycrafting is needed on the level of movement/incoming damage favoring the different talents right now. On a related note, the relative value of Invocation with rising levels of haste (shortening the time spent evocating) could be of interest.
Glyphs/Hastebreakpoints. You announced this to be something in the pipeline, yet I would again stress the need for reliable haste values. This holds true especially for Combustion. I would still like to see some updated theorycrafting on the value/drawbacks of the Glyph, also including the ease at which haste-points for glyphed/unglyphed Combustion can be reached.
Combustion in general: This is more of a playstyle-question, and thus maybe out of place here. But I still lack reliable information on what constitutes good conditions for a Combustion. The spell priority given in the Compendium now is a very good starting point, but right now, I haven't found a good explanation on the behavior of Ignite, and when precisely it is wise to cast Combustion, especially given the changes to it in 5.1.

I just did a few quick comparison runs on practice dummies. For reference, current gear is a mix of mostly low-level purples and a couple of blues (total ilvl 475), the only buffs in place were Molten Armor and Arcane Brilliance, and I know there were a few points where I missed a cast. I was using Incanter's Ward as the tier 6 talent, but not using the benefit from having the shield absorb damage. Running with 24.24% crit, I was averaging approx. 55k dps over 2.5min using single target rotation with FB as the filler, and averaging approx. 63k dps over 2.5min using the same rotation with Scorch as the filler.

There were significantly more HU and Pyro! procs in the Scorch rotation, and I would guess that the difference between the FB and Scorch rotations will continue to increase as crit goes up, and that it would decrease with crit going down. I need to spend some more time on the dummies switching gear and reforging in and out to look at crit levels, and also using other buffs. At the moment, though, it looks like Scorch isn't just good for burst damage, but may possibly be better than FB at higher crit levels. Need to do more testing on this, though.

Theorycrafting isn't my strongest point; I'm generally better with experimentation. I'm hoping someone who's better at theorycrafting will be able to look at these.

I'll be putting together a table with what information I can get on current haste breakpoints, ticks per haste level, etc. I'll add glyphed Combustion into that, too, along with anything else people would like to see in there.

Thanks for the points to consider!

Karolus · 10/24/12, 4:24 PM

For the stats priority, I would add spell power before hit. Spell Power is the main stats for dealing damage ( it derives from intellect ). Therefore, Gemming for pure intellect might be better than Crit.

Spacedonkey · 10/24/12, 5:13 PM

Originally Posted by Karolus

For the stats priority, I would add spell power before hit. Spell Power is the main stats for dealing damage ( it derives from intellect ). Therefore, Gemming for pure intellect might be better than Crit.

Int would have to be worth twice as much as the secondary stat for gemming pure Int to be better.

Bhorin · 10/24/12, 7:02 PM

For my current gear Simcraft suggest that crit is .51 and haste is .50, so int gem vs crit or haste gems is more or less a wash. (Int 1.00, SP, 0.77, hit 0.64, crit 0.51, haste 0.50, mastery 0.37)

Here is a document for haste plateaus though I cannot vouch for it's accuracy.

I just did a few quick comparison runs on practice dummies. For reference, current gear is a mix of mostly low-level purples and a couple of blues (total ilvl 475), the only buffs in place were Molten Armor and Arcane Brilliance, and I know there were a few points where I missed a cast. I was using Incanter's Ward as the tier 6 talent, but not using the benefit from having the shield absorb damage. Running with 24.24% crit, I was averaging approx. 55k dps over 2.5min using single target rotation with FB as the filler, and averaging approx. 63k dps over 2.5min using the same rotation with Scorch as the filler.

I believe a better test would be Fireball if Pyro dot is up and scorch to fish when it isn't--though I doubt scorch will beat fireball under any real circumstances.

Edit: I ran Simcraft under all 3 circumstances with results: PoM=79k, Scorch=69k, Scorch if no Pyro=77k. Scorch if no pyro and Fireball with PoM sim pretty close.

For Tier 6 talents you can calculate the values of each by the following for a patchwerk fight:
Incanters: 1.06 (obv more depending on the value you give to the absorb proc)
Rune of Power: OR 1.15 * (60/X)/(60/X+1.4) where X is casts of RoP per minute.
1.15 * 60/61.4 = 1.12 [X=1 in this case]
Invocation: 1.25 * (40+1.3)/(45.3+1.3) = 1.10 (+1.3 from Alter Time assuming)

Another thing of note of Tier 6 talent is that we do a lot of spike dmg (e.g. PoM/Combustion/Procs etc) so it might be better to have the extra 10% damage during a spike.

dirby · 10/25/12, 4:10 PM

I am unsure if it matters or not. But when using Invocation, is it better to cast Evo right when the buff expires or when there are 5 seconds (roughly the evo channel time) left on it? Is it a DPS loss to cast Evo when you have 15 seconds left on the buff but there is 4-6 seconds of downtime? Would it matter using a global to recast a bomb, cast IB (with HU) or cast a Pyro! make a considerable difference before casting Evo?

These may sound like convoluted questions but any insight would be great.

Korvinas · 10/25/12, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Spacedonkey

Int would have to be worth twice as much as the secondary stat for gemming pure Int to be better.

I have been curious about this and I did a few quick calculations based on my own stat weights

brilliant - (160*1.1)*3.83 = 674.08
potent - ((80*1.1)*3.83) + ((160)*1.97) = 652.24
smooth - (320)*1.97 = 630.4

Which means that gemming potent gems to get a socket bonus will be nearly always worth it and other than that gem pure int.

The only thing that may invalidate this is if simcraft accounts for the 1.1 multiplier in its stat weights.

semata · 10/26/12, 5:08 AM

The rotation section advices using Incanter's Ward and Evocation "whenever off CD", which seems incorrect to me.

Depending on the encounter, casting Incanter's Ward on CD would be a significant DPS loss. IW's passive damage bonus is inactive while it is on cooldown. Therefore, unless you can reliably expect non-trivial damage at some point in the next 8 seconds, casting IW will pointlessly reduce your damage by 6% for the next 25 seconds. So perhaps instead of advising casting on CD, the rotation should say to cast IW either when expecting incoming raid damage, or when there is fire nearby that can be ran into, within the next 8 seconds.

Similarly, Evocation should not be used on CD, but instead whenever the damage buff has expired. Evocation with the Invocation talent has only a 10 second CD while the damage buff lasts for 40 seconds, so casting on CD is significantly suboptimal.

There may be an exception to this if preparing for a critical burn phase that will last longer than what you have left on the Invocation buff. For instance, when killing the sparks on Elegon, it might be worthwhile to evocate before during the phase change (or, in the lull between the first and second waves). Having the 25% damage bonus is a significant boost for killing all waves.

To dirby above, hopefully this also answered your question.

Ushikawa · 10/26/12, 11:33 AM

Glyph of Mirror Image is now a DPS increase for Fire Mages. It still does not allow the mirror images to cast Fire Blast, but the extra damage from Fireball makes up for it.

Simcraft results of 50,000 iterations over a 600 second fight using nothing but Mirror Image

stýx · 10/26/12, 2:23 PM

your statement about using !pyro if HS+HU is active, should be more clear.

Assuming HS+HU. You should continue with one more Fb, and not use !pyro immediately, because of the way 0.5s cancel delay on HU works. As well as the 0.75s max travel time on some of our spells.

Fb->!pyro, even if Fb fails to crit but the !pyro does crit you get another HS, because the !pyro lands within the 0.5s cancel delay of Fb. If you would just use !pyro without the Fb first, you would only roll the dice once instead of twice so to say.
If both of them crit you get !pyro+Hu. Repeat Fb->!pyro.

On another note; Activating AT prematurely results in less than the +6s to basically all trinkets pots and hero at pull, and should be taken into consideration, when choosing PoM for AT->!pyro->PoM-pyro->AT->!pyro->PoM-pyro, thus resulting in only a ~3s gain to pot/trinkets/hero.

Originally Posted by Pyryte

Here is the Alter Time + Combustion method I was talking about earlier if you want to add it:

*You have Pyro! proc*
>Pop PoM
>Pop AT
>Pyro! + Instant cast Pyroblast from PoM
>Deactivate AT
>Pyro! + Instant cast Pryoblast from PoM
>Combustion

It should also be worth noting that if you gain a HU proc over the course of this spell chain, you should turn it into a Pyro! with IB and fire it off.

IB decrease your ignite significantly if you already have 2+ pyro's in the pool, so i would not advise this when building ignite for combustion.

Edited for clarification as it seems people were mixing up my points about Fb->!pyro and my point about IB.

Doroteasenjk · 10/26/12, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by dirby

when using Invocation, is it better to cast Evo right when the buff expires or when there are 5 seconds (roughly the evo channel time) left on it?

When you are evocating, you are doing no DPS (except for DoTs). Evocating sooner increases your downtime. If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.

So, wait.

Omnia · 10/26/12, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Doroteasenjk

If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.

You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.

ironcurtain · 10/27/12, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Korvinas

I have been curious about this and I did a few quick calculations based on my own stat weights

brilliant - (160*1.1)*3.83 = 674.08
potent - ((80*1.1)*3.83) + ((160)*1.97) = 652.24
smooth - (320)*1.97 = 630.4

Which means that gemming potent gems to get a socket bonus will be nearly always worth it and other than that gem pure int.

The only thing that may invalidate this is if simcraft accounts for the 1.1 multiplier in its stat weights.

Which it does afaik.

Korvinas · 10/27/12, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by Omnia

You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.

They are calculated at cast as most spells are.

Calicia · 10/28/12, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ushikawa

Glyph of Mirror Image is now a DPS increase for Fire Mages. It still does not allow the mirror images to cast Fire Blast, but the extra damage from Fireball makes up for it.

Thanks. Added to glyphs section.

Originally Posted by Bhorin

I believe a better test would be Fireball if Pyro dot is up and scorch to fish when it isn't--though I doubt scorch will beat fireball under any real circumstances.

Edit: I ran Simcraft under all 3 circumstances with results: PoM=79k, Scorch=69k, Scorch if no Pyro=77k. Scorch if no pyro and Fireball with PoM sim pretty close.

Thanks. Amended rotation to list Scorch to HU fish only when there's no Pyro DoT.

Originally Posted by semata

The rotation section advices using Incanter's Ward and Evocation "whenever off CD", which seems incorrect to me.

Depending on the encounter, casting Incanter's Ward on CD would be a significant DPS loss. IW's passive damage bonus is inactive while it is on cooldown. Therefore, unless you can reliably expect non-trivial damage at some point in the next 8 seconds, casting IW will pointlessly reduce your damage by 6% for the next 25 seconds. So perhaps instead of advising casting on CD, the rotation should say to cast IW either when expecting incoming raid damage, or when there is fire nearby that can be ran into, within the next 8 seconds.

Similarly, Evocation should not be used on CD, but instead whenever the damage buff has expired. Evocation with the Invocation talent has only a 10 second CD while the damage buff lasts for 40 seconds, so casting on CD is significantly suboptimal.

Good points. Amended rotation advice to take them into account.

I think most boss encounters at the moment allow for IW to get the damage required to be useful, either through raid-wide damage or through doing something like running into an amethyst pool or the like, so using it on CD right now is viable for bosses, though not necessarily for trash. I haven't seen any of the Heart of Fear or Terrace stuff yet, though, so don't know if it would be viable in there.

Originally Posted by stýx

To add some clarification on the ignite for combustion build up, and your statement about only using !pyro if HU is procced.

assuming !pyro+Hu. you should proc your !pyro with IB and continue to fireball till you have these conditions.

Always start with a fireball. because of the 0.5s cancel delay on HU. If you Fb->!pyro Even if only the !pyro crit you get another !pyro, since the first !pyro lands within the 0.5s cancel delay. if Both crits you get !pyro+Hu and can get lucky and get another !pyro.
This is another reason i find PoM to be overvalued, as i normally have little problems getting 2-4+ pyros into my AT combination. and even without AT its not uncommon to get 2-3+ pyro's
Also activating AT prematurely results in less than the +6s to basicly all trinkets pots and hero at pull, and should be taken into consideration.
I have also seen people suggest using IB if you get a Hu during this chain, and normally it would be 2-3 pyro in to the chain that it is suggested, i find this somewhat stupid as IB lowers your ignite by a large amount, assuming you have 2-3 pyro's in your ignite pool, you might as well combust at this point or take your chances of a higher ignite after AT reset.

I'm assuming you're referring to this part?:

[*] (Pyro only if Pyro! and HU have both procced)

I'm not suggesting Pyro only ever is cast if you have a Pyro! + HU combo, only that casting Pyro becomes higher on the priority list if both are procced in order to take advantage of both, rather than risk losing the Pyro!

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

I've noted about using AT with approx. 6 sec left on buffs, thanks