MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us - Page 5

Verndroid · 11/15/12, 5:18 AM

Originally Posted by xerty

RE Glyph of Combustion

Does Glyph of Combustion not also double the duration of the DoT ?

Yes it does!

It is basically just 100% added to all damage AND CD. Net result is the same DPS wise but it is easier to align with other CD's

Aastarius · 11/15/12, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Verndroid

Yes it does!

It is basically just 100% added to all damage AND CD. Net result is the same DPS wise but it is easier to align with other CD's

However, without the glyph you're not quite so reliant on waiting for THE ignite before casting Combustion. Similarly you get to use it on adds/trash simply because it's available again much sooner.

Calicia · 11/16/12, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by Zeemag

I came across a spread sheet with the haste break points for mages. Since it's not published here yet I figured I'd share it. It says that for a non goblin, not using frost armor, with the 5% raid buff wants 3036 haste for living bomb, 3056 for nether temptest, 3056 for glyphed combustion, and 4052 for unglyhphed combustion. The link includes every other variation too.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39

Thanks. I'll add it into what I'm using to make up a table, and will be adding it to the OP once done.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback re phrasing in the rotation section. I hadn't caught that it needed clarification, since I knew what I mean, of course :-) If you (or anyone else) see where else I need to rephrase anything, please do point it out to me so I can edit it.

Have added in casting FB as well us Pyro during a HU/Pyro! proc, as well as prioritising LB above both of them. Hope if's clearer/makes more sense now.

Has anyone looked into how crit rating would change using Scorch for crit-fishing? I've heard that at 25 - 30% crit it's no longer worth crit-fishing, but I'm not particularly good with SimulationCraft so I was wondering if anyone here has tested it.

Fex · 11/16/12, 11:45 AM

5. If both Pyro! and HU are procced:
LB if about to expire.
Fireball.
Pyro!

Is it just me misunderstanding what you're saying, or is there an extra Fireball in here? If you mean "finish casting your current Fireball after Pyro! + HU both proc then hit LB (< 2s) or Pyro" then that's fine, otherwise one could misinterpret this to cast an extra Fireball.

I think it's just a clarity issue.

Aul · 11/16/12, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Aastarius

However, without the glyph you're not quite so reliant on waiting for THE ignite before casting Combustion. (...)

Not entirely. The main benefit of having it glyphed is that it's easier to align with CD's, and as such it's easier to get a high ignite to use with Combustion. However, you don't necessarily need to wait for a higher Ignite. While it's obviously beneficial to do so, you don't lose any damage compared to the unglyphed Combustion if you use it on a 'standard' ignite.

Contrary to what you just said, I'd say you're less reliant on a high Ignite with a glyphed Combustion, and more reliant with an unglyphed Combustion. With the glyph, you need a high ignite once every 90 seconds, while without it, you need a high ignite every 45 seconds. The former is obviously easier to achieve than the latter.

Brazos · 11/18/12, 4:23 PM

So it seems plausible that refreshing LB in that 0-2s time remaining on DoT window could be a dps increase. I wanted to test this with SimulationCraft, but I don't think it calculates for an explosion occurring in this window. I replaced the following action:

actions+=/living_bomb,if=!ticking

with

actions+=/living_bomb,if=!ticking|dot.living_bomb.remains<=2

My uptime was at 92% with this change compared to 83% from before but, I averaged only 14.8 LB explosions compared to 34.8 without the change.

So it would appear that it can't be simmed at the moment, unless there is something I am missing with the action criteria I applied. As it stands now, it was a dps loss according to the sim to make this change.

macfergusson · 11/20/12, 3:42 PM

I can't find any point addressing the Pyroblast DoT:

If you were to cast two Pyro's in a row, what prevents the Pyro DoT from the first being overwritten (and hence lost) by the second Pyro's DoT?

I can't find anywhere that the Pyro DoT is rolled together like ignite, if that's the case. If not, does this mean that it would be beneficial to hold off on using a Pyro! proc until the pre-existing Pyro DoT on target has had a chance to tick a bit?

Pyryte · 11/20/12, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by macfergusson

I can't find any point addressing the Pyroblast DoT:

If you were to cast two Pyro's in a row, what prevents the Pyro DoT from the first being overwritten (and hence lost) by the second Pyro's DoT?

I can't find anywhere that the Pyro DoT is rolled together like ignite, if that's the case. If not, does this mean that it would be beneficial to hold off on using a Pyro! proc until the pre-existing Pyro DoT on target has had a chance to tick a bit?

You answered your own question in here. Pyro dots do not roll like ignite, but ignite does. Because of this, you still want to fire off those pyros to build on your ignites, it far outweighs the benefits of holding off while pyro dot ticks for a couple seconds.

Rakshas · 11/25/12, 8:33 PM

Originally Posted by Aul

Not entirely. The main benefit of having it glyphed is that it's easier to align with CD's, and as such it's easier to get a high ignite to use with Combustion. However, you don't necessarily need to wait for a higher Ignite. While it's obviously beneficial to do so, you don't lose any damage compared to the unglyphed Combustion if you use it on a 'standard' ignite.

Contrary to what you just said, I'd say you're less reliant on a high Ignite with a glyphed Combustion, and more reliant with an unglyphed Combustion. With the glyph, you need a high ignite once every 90 seconds, while without it, you need a high ignite every 45 seconds. The former is obviously easier to achieve than the latter.

Obviously if you need some burst every ~45 seconds it's better to use unglyphed Combustion. But on a "patchwerk" boss Combustion with glyph more likely will be more profitable.

E.g. imagine the fight where you could use 2N+1 unglyphed combustions. So you can use N+1 glyphed combustions that will give you a bit more combustion uptime (i.e. same as 2N+2 glyphed combustions).

← Click Here

Also usually you do not use combustion as soon as it goes off CD. You need to wait a good crit for a while. And so you need more time to cast 2 unglyped combustion and get it off CD than to cast 1 glyphed combustion and get if off CD.

← Click Here

Maerlim · 11/28/12, 5:40 AM

Originally Posted by Calicia

[4]If both Pyro! and HU are procced:
LB if about to expire.
Fireball.
Pyro!

As others mentioned, it would be nice rephrasing that.
"LB if about to expire and you're not in the middle of a Fireball cast
Cast Fireball if you're not already casting it
Pyro! at the end of the cast" would do it.

Originally Posted by midgettoes

When do you get into this position? Assuming you follow the rotation in the OP this shouldn't happen? You cast fireball to fill, and IB when you get HU (refreshing LB in between). The only scenario you could get HU and Pyro! at the same time is when
Fireball 1 cast
Fireball 2 cast
Fireball 1 lands (crit) - HU
Fireball 2 cast ends
Inferno blast cast (crit) - Pyro!
Fireball 2 lands (crit) - Pyro! + HU!

Obviously the next step here, as in the OP rotation, is to use Pyro! You can't use IB as it is on CD.

Originally Posted by Dyspho

The best next step is to cast FB + pyro ! : they will land approx at the same time so if only one of them crit your HU proc will become HS.

Why are you using Fireball + Pyro! ? You're using Pyro! so you don't waste the HU in case the fireball crits, but you're also using it after a fireball (instead of right away) so you double the chance of making that HU a new Pyro!.
This factor ("they will land approx at the same time so if only one of them crit your HU proc will become HS") actually changes our rotation a little, and in other scenarios aswell.
Imagine the same sequence described above, but Fireball 2 doesn't crit.

Inferno Blast cast at the end of Fireball 2 - Pyro!
Fireball 2 lands, noncrit -still only a Pyro!

In this scenario you can choose between casting Pyro!, casting Fireball3 + Pyro!, or just casting Fireball 3. IB is on cd (with 8 seconds left on cd). I ask you: why use this Pyro! on Fireball3 and not on Fireball4 or Fireball 5? Is there any particular reason, since you won't be wasting a HU in case it procs (IB is on cd)?
Here are the possible results of a FireballX + Pyro!:

Fireball doesn't crit Pyro doesn't crit- you don't get anything
Fireball crits Pyro doesn't - you get HU
Fireball doesn't crit Pyro crits- you get HU
Fireball crits and Pyro Crits - you get a new Pyro!

Let's say instead of following the priority you decide to not cast Pyro! after Fireball 3 and it crits.

Cast Fireball 3
Finish Fireball 3 cast
Cast Fireball 4
Fireball 3 lands and crits- Now you have both Pyro! and HU
Finish Fireball 4 casting Pyro!

Here are the possible results of such a FireballX +Pyro! +HU:

Fireball doesn't crit Pyro doesn't crit- you don't get anything
Fireball crits Pyro doesn't - you get a new Pyro!
Fireball doesn't crit Pyro crits- you get a new Pyro!
Fireball crits and Pyro Crits - you get a new Pyro!

So while there isn't a particular reason to cast Pyro right away when IB is on cd, there is a reason to hold it at least 2-3 casts, because if any of these casts crit, you'll have an increased chance of turning that HU into a Pyro!.
If IB is off cd and you have a Pyro!: use it right away to make room for a possible HU.
If IB is on cd and you have a Pyro! + HU: use Fireball + Pyro! for an increased chance of making HU become a new Pyro!
If IB is on cd and you only have a Pyro!: save the Pyro! a few seconds for a chance of getting into the above situation
Just make sure you avoid getting into a "IB is off cd and you have a Pyro! +HU". If IB is about to get off cd: don't save that Pyro.
Our rotation becomes a little more dynamic, according to IB cd.

Originally Posted by Calicia

2 – 4 targets:
(...)[5]Inferno Blast when HU procs (if HU procs with IB on CD, keep casting your filler instead).
(...)[7]IB to spread DoTs

This isn't clear to me. You're either using Inferno Blast when HU procs or you're using it to spread DoTs.

Inferno Blast is both a spell that always crits and spread certain DoTs. If you choose to prioritize generating Pyro!s you're using IB when HU procs and "accidentaly" spreading DoTs in the proccess. If you choose to prioritize spreading DoTs you're using IB whenever's the best time to spread DoTs, and by doing so you might "accidentatly" get a Pyro! if you're lucky.
Combustion is such a powerful spell that whenever you use it you'll want to spread it. In the case of applied combustion your priority becomes spreading DoTs > IB to proc Pyro!. That's a consensus.

Now in other 2-4 targets situations, when combustion is on cd and you're not deliberatedly trying to build ignite, what's the right priority?
Let's say you're using LB in a 3 close targets situation. In this scenario LB's explosion is reaching its maximum effect. The majority of your LB damage will come from the explosion at its end. You might spread LB as soon as you apply it, if you do you're taking advantadge of all damage LB has to offer. But if you spread LB at some point before the explosion, but not right at the start, you'll lose a few ticks, won't take advantadge of all damage LB has to offer, but will still get quite a large portion of it since most of LB's damage is coming from the explosion.
If you're using the "IB when HU procs > IB to spread DoTs" priority, when you get a HU before LB expires, you'll hit IB because of HU, by doing so you'll also spread LB and will take advantadge of most of LB's damage, due to the explosion.
But let's say you weren't lucky. You didn't crit and LB is about to expire, your side targets don't have LB on them. Is it a dps gain to change the priority to "IB to spread DoTs>IB when HU procs" in this specific case? That's something i've been trying to figure without a decisive answear so far. If you do hit IB to benefit of the explosion there's a good chance of wasting a HU in the following seconds, with IB on cd, so that's a wasted Pyro!.
In a 2 targets scenario i find it to be a dps loss, LB is not at its maximum. But in a 3-4targets scenario, the consequent damage (from two explosions hitting 3 targets) is bigger than a Pyro.

In any case, this priority should be rephrased and reordered for the sake of clarity. Something like:
5-IB to spread DoTs if combustion is applied to your main target and not to nearby targets or if situation Y. Otherwise step 7
7-Inferno Blast when HU procs

dascott · 11/28/12, 7:39 PM

simcraft puts ignite+combustion at only ~20% of our damage, when reality is easily ~30%, even on single target. Is this a big enough concern to question the stat weights it gives? It makes mastery out to be a total dump stat as it is.

Ayö · 11/29/12, 4:34 AM

Originally Posted by Maerlim

So while there isn't a particular reason to cast Pyro right away when IB is on cd, there is a reason to hold it at least 2-3 casts, because if any of these casts crit, you'll have an increased chance of turning that HU into a Pyro!.
If IB is off cd and you have a Pyro!: use it right away to make room for a possible HU.
If IB is on cd and you have a Pyro! + HU: use Fireball + Pyro! for an increased chance of making HU become a new Pyro!
If IB is on cd and you only have a Pyro!: save the Pyro! a few seconds for a chance of getting into the above situation
Just make sure you avoid getting into a "IB is off cd and you have a Pyro! +HU".

You don' t have to avoid getting into a "IB is off cd and you have a Pyro! +HU"
Casting your pyro! and your IB just after. Thx to the delay of pyro, you'll get a new Pyro! from previous HU +IB

ltabdiel · 12/01/12, 11:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ayö

You don' t have to avoid getting into a "IB is off cd and you have a Pyro! +HU"
Casting your pyro! and your IB just after. Thx to the delay of pyro, you'll get a new Pyro! from previous HU +IB

Correct if I am wrong, but this would actually be a preferable situation for combusting because of the high probability of a nice fat ignite.

ikesizzle · 12/21/12, 1:54 PM

Originally Posted by Zeemag

I came across a spread sheet with the haste break points for mages. Since it's not published here yet I figured I'd share it. It says that for a non goblin, not using frost armor, with the 5% raid buff wants 3036 haste for living bomb, 3056 for nether temptest, 3056 for glyphed combustion, and 4052 for unglyhphed combustion. The link includes every other variation too.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...ZmFYa0E#gid=39

Has anyone tried stacking haste to 8085 (non-goblins) for the extra pyroblast tick?

Is there any scenario where doing so would result in higher damage output than stacking crit?

Currently I'm at 8190 crit, and 3254 haste, (ilvl 491) and I hate having to /pray to the RNG gods to stay competitive on fights, especially single target fights. Pre mage nerf, I was usually able to get a monster lead on the pull, and maintain it enough to stay top 3. Post-nerf, unless I'm critting like a monster, I'm busting ass just to stay in the top 6, and that's only if I get a good combustion on the pull. Otherwise, it feels much more like a RNG crapshoot.

If I was to stack haste, I'd also probably consider letting alter-time run its course naturally for extra CD and buff time instead of trying to string 6-8 pyros in a row hoping and praying for a monster ignite. I would also consider un-glyphing combustion in this case.

Has anyone experimented with stacking haste? I'm trying to think outside the box because I'd prefer not to play arcane, and was wondering if an adjustment in playstyle could keep the fire mage gunning for the top spot more consistently.

ikesizzle · 01/08/13, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by ikesizzle

Has anyone experimented with stacking haste? I'm trying to think outside the box because I'd prefer not to play arcane, and was wondering if an adjustment in playstyle could keep the fire mage gunning for the top spot more consistently.

So, I did an experiment and tried stacking haste (gems, reforges, etc) (iLvL 492). This allowed me to be more aggressive with combustion (glyphed and non-glyphed), utilize better itemized gear for haste, and experiment with using all of alter time's 6s vs trying to force 5-8 pyros in a row and ending it early. The results are nothing substantial. As Simcraft predicted, my DPS was around the same as when I was stacking crit, and last night while working on some 25-man Heroics in MSV (and a few normals) my DPS was actually quite similar to a fire mage in my raid who was forged for crit, but certainly not going to compete with affliction warlocks or hunters.

Predictably my damage was more consistent, less spikey, but still nothing spectacular. I'm now under the opinion that unless you're in BiS heroic gear, playing fire is not going to be a competitive spec for the top spot on the meters unless you get extremely lucky and have tricks of the trade, and get to stand still and ignore mechanics, etc. (and even then I'm not sure you will always be competitive).

I went arcane at the end of the night, and even in my rusty Arcane state, I would doing as good if not better DPS than I was as fire. I dislike playing arcane, but at this point if I want to have a chance at number 1, especially with the vicious DPS in my group, I'll need to learn to love arcane.