JasonX

I don't really agree with that statement. Based on my own Hyjal experiences as a deep fire mage(with 3/3 imp flamestrike) and my past experience as a deep arcane mage, AE spam from an arcane mage wins hands down even if threat is not considered. Even my current flamestrike spam(with 3/3 imp flamestrike) is just slightly above untalented AE spam in terms of dps(considering the cast time, crit percentage, flamestrike dot). If anything, I feel flamestrike needs to be much more competitive as main AOE of a deep fire mage.

 

Nariivla

I can't seem to find the exact, tiny piece of information I'm looking for through searchs so I thought this would be a good place to ask.

I've switched to my shaman as my raid toon but I was having a discussion with a mage in my guild and we had different beliefs on spell haste in regards to damage coefficients. Namely, does spell haste cause the spell to benefit from less of your spell dmg as if it was really a shorter cast spell, or does it reduce the cast time similar to talents, ie, the original cast time is still used to determine how much of the spell damage it gets?

It's a tiny piece of information I can't seem to find here, so I'm assuming it was already determined a while ago and passed into common knowledge.

 

Grecasi

Deep arcane mage who's going to AoE will be smart and pop AP at the same time, AP+AoE is hell of a lot stronger then any other AoE out there. Though it also rapes mana. How ever just plain comparison without AP; Imp Flamestrike+Ignite is stronger then AE with Arcane Impact.

 

Copernicus

Spell haste does not change the raw damage of the spell. It's also the second best rating (behind hit rating up until cap). It does not go below the global cooldown, so haste doesn't benefit instant-cast spells or 1.5 second cast spells.

 

Plankel

ehm... you are aware of the damage cap to AoE spells right? For AE it is 6730, which would be around 10 targets for me. So when you are AoEing 10+ targets +dmg trinkets or AP will not have any effect at all (and a reduced effect for 7+).

The only place where AP really adds something to your AoE is Kael weapons phase

 

Nariivla

Thank you. That's what I thought.

 

xiaoxin21

On the topic of damage caps, anyone know the damage cap of blizzard if there is any?

 

Rustyshrapnel

So how much passive haste would you need to lower a 2.5 cast time spell to 1.5? I'd think quite a bit, right?

 

◊ manly

resolve this for answer:
1.5 = 2.5 / (1 - x)
x will be in percentage, which you multiply by 15.7 to get the number in terms of haste ratings.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Pintofbrew

What manly means is

1.5 = 2.5 / (1-x)

1-x = 2.5 / 1.5

1 - (5/3) = x

x = - 2/3

x = -0.67

The minus is not in fact signifficant of a negative haste rating, rather it signifies a casting time decrease if you prefer to think of it that way.

-0.67 = 67% haste. So 67*15.7

making haste = 1057 to make your Frostbolt GCD.

 

Grecasi

Yes, I am aware of the cap. And you're right with the numbers mentioned for targets but lets take a look at real raid AoE situations. Used correctly AP+AE is very strong in any AoE situation that doesn't go above 6 targets pre-crit. That is if you want to have max efficiency from it. Only real place I can think of where this has a negative impact is on Morogrim (depending on strategy 2 or 1 FN spots, with 2 there is no impact) and Solarian. Hyjal you seldom have more then 6 mobs to AoE on at any given time when AoE fires off, where AoE is a matter of concern.

 

Grecasi

Stating that Spell Haste is the second best rating is a bad way of phrasing it. It's the second cheapest/most expensive (right in the middle) of the 3 rating stats a mage needs. How ever depending on spec it's usefulness varies. Stating "it's the second best rating" you really need to put it in the right circumstance and spec.
Personally I rate Hit then crit and last haste as a Firemage, this said I don't mean fuck haste all together. I am just saying reach hit (13% + elemental precision) and crit points (40%) first then worry about haste. And it's usefulness when we acquire Icy veins will leave haste with even less importance amongst your stat pool.

 

Doroteasenjk

Except that haste is easier to come by than crit with the badge gear and ZA gear, at the Tier 5 level. A point of haste rating does more damage than a point of crit rating. At tier 5 and below, it isn't possible to get to 40% crit without seriously gimping your damage.

 

Pintofbrew

I'm curious where you value spellpower in your assumed evaluation Grecasi. Crit is generally considered to be worst value-per-point by a margin and I'd agree wholeheartedly with that.

40% seems excessively high, if you'd like to hazard a look at Manly, you'll see he's on 37% crit with molten armor and theres pretty much fuck all he can get to improve his gear further from what it is now. Certainly not another 3% crit.

With that in mind, even with BoK, Draneic Wisdom and Brilliant Manaoil his crit still won't pass 39, so unless you know something that I don't, I'll assume you're reaching this 40% you claim by nerfing your spellpower, which is a huge falacy.

lastly, would you care to elaborate on "usefulness when we acquire Icy veins will leave haste with even less importance"? The only way I see IV making haste less effective is if the combined effect of IV+passive Haste is such that you hit the cap, something which won't happen. Unless you're a troll with Berserk, Bloodlust, Skull of Gul'dan and IV going off all at the same time.

Edit: Doroteasenjk: ZA gear with haste is sub-par almost in it's entirety. The lack of anything barring heavy stats and spell/haste is precisely the reason it is so. The only items I can realistically bring myself to compare without shedding a small tear of dissapointment between T5 gear and ZA is the boots VS the ones from Lurker (where the latter loses out purely because some budget was spent on spirit) and that's about it. Pads are beaten to a bloody pulp by T5 and trash-drop Elvens, chest is left sobbing in the corner compared with even Hydro's chest and the sword off Zul'Jin is beaten even by the non-hasted dagger off his minion the Dragonhawk... And let's not even get into how bad the badge pants are.

 

◊ manly

Truth be told, I do expect more than 40% critrate on fights, but due to external factors.
Buffed I do get around 39% crit, but then I get 3% crit from my elemental shaman. Combustion will also slightly increase that number in WWS. If I were to venture a guesstimateI would say 43-44% crit being average in a WWS, accounting for everything (incl. combustion).

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Kir

The haste offhand badge gear is pretty good? Especially for frost, which has much less value for +hit considering how easy it is to hit cap (especially with the ghost hit).

If you disregard hit, I'd say it's the 2nd best offhand in game for frost, and even arguably better due to the extra stamina. It's about equal dps for frost.

 

Grecasi

Pintofbrew:
40%, it might seem high (and it probably is high when I think about it closer). Did you count adepts elixir (don't see it on your list)? Also with a ret paladin and elemental shaman in the raid, even if you're at 36% you'll be at 41% with totem + improved seal of the crusader and on top of that you got combustion which is another 2-4% (though combustion gives better effect ratio at lower crit%).

Spell power is the core stat around which you place your the three others. Spell power importance is variable to a small degree depending on bossfights or usual mobs. Bossfights; 16% hit then max Spellpower, crit and finally haste after those two, same level to +2 levels mobs; Spellpower then Crit.

Regarding Icy Veins, you forgot drums of battle which is another 5%. My statement was in regards with how much haste is beneficial when you have all these effects on you. Going below 1.7 cast time gives nothing really as it is now. After I read about the Nagle removal an hour ago (right after I posted that), this might be a different story in 2.3.2 but right now it wouldn't do much.This just me speaking from in-game experience with haste and 150-200ms latency. Either way, maybe I am just damage from bad experience with haste over the past month in it's current form and 2.3 patch valiant attempts to fix things but screwing up on other small points. Though I can say I am really looking forward to the 2.3.2 bugfixes and changes.

 

Pintofbrew

Grecasi: Why on God's Green Earth would you drink Adepts instead of Fire Power? +24C is most assuredly less than the additional +31dmg Firepower nets you.

I am aware of both how shaman and paladin buffs affect your crit rate, and that Combustion is (to a degree) modeled as an overall circa 2% crit increase. In your original post, however, you seemed to be referring to "gearing up to" 40% crit rather than reaching it under optimal conditions. Perhaps that is my misunderstanding.

Why does >1.7s cast give nothing really? And what exactly is the Nagle removal?

 

◊ manly

Nagle's Algorithm has been defeated! - WOW Insider
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle's_algorithm

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Grecasi

I agree with you that firepower in pure raw power is stronger but it's cheaper and less time consuming to get adepts not to mention the logistics for it. Difference between them is perhaps a 10-15ish dps points at best.

As for the crit part, I am a bit fast sometimes when I try to communicate something which is my fault. I don't always spell things out in detail and I apologize for that.

1.6xy-1.7s cast seem to be the data gathered from 1.5 sec/gcd cast. Client delay, latency, reaction time and timing play in. So precasting a spell right after GCD is over should net the same result+latency which then translates into play that lowering cast time beyond 1.7 is less efficient then what it was prior.

Regarding Nagle:
http://elitistjerks.com/576146-post180.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagle's_algorithm
It's in the client at the moment but is being removed for 2.3.2

 

greyberger

I still don't understand how crit is better than haste for a fire mage. I've run the math and looked at the math of people far smarter than I am, and I can't find any reason why the math wouldn't translate to actual dps gains.

Haste is what it is; i don't see play style or matters of preference enter into it.

 

koetjeka

I think this is because you need so much haste rating that you can fit 1 fireball more in the fireball/scorch rotation. If you can't fit 1 more in the rotation, haste rating is pretty useless I think.

Furthermore, haste rating doesn't do anything for your instant spells like fireblast.

 

Sancus

This isn't true. It's been proven to be nonsense repeatedly. Haste is identical to crit and hit in that they are all stats that only increase your chance to benefit from already random factors. Fight duration in fireball increments is a value so unpredictable that it may as well be random, much like the number of crits you'll get is random or the number of resists.

With a 10% crit rate, you can theoretically get a 100% crit rate on a given fight... but you practically never will. Same with haste - sometimes the fight will favor you getting additional fireballs, sometimes it won't, but either way it doesn't matter because you gear based on the average benefit.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

Grecasi

In theory it's not, in practice you have to consider itemization. Most of the spell haste gear out there has less spell damage then their hit and/or crit counter part parts (which most of the time can be gemmed as well). Which will leave a firemage with very few desirable items (tops 2) until BT.

 

Doroteasenjk

I'm not sure where you are riding that horse, but it isn't going the same direction I am. I was mostly looking at the badge gear, the fetish off-hand and cuffs, with spell haste on them. The equivalent items that have crit on them are less valuable. I wasn't suggesting subbing haste in for more important stats. I picked up some of the ZA gear for shiggles, but haven't even enchanted them yet.

The ZA and badge gear is relatively easier to get than Tier 5. Tier 5 gear does not have the heavy crit needed to get to 40%+ crit without losing important stats, which was the intent of my post. I have not looked at Tier 6 gear in the same depth.

This brings up an important issue on these forums: I think I have an important voice, but my voice is really speaking from the start of Tier 5. It is pretty easy to sit at the top of Tier 6 and forget what it is like being at the bottom of Tier 5. I skipped Tier 4 because of the tailoring set, and I get a feeling from people in Tier 6 that they skipped Tier 4 and Tier 5, as it was beneath them before they even got it. I know which stats are important, and I know which stats are theoretically available to me at my raiding level, and which are practically available.