a) You gain 37 spell damage to arcane and frost spells. You lose 12 fire spell damage. As AE spam is better than Flamestrike spam, this is helpful.
b) You gain 17 haste rating (1.08% @ L70) at the expense of 17 spell crit rating (0.77% @ L70). This is close to 0.3% increase in damage.
c) You gain 24 stamina and 17 intellect. This is the sealer of the deal for me. As you move into Tier 5 and Tier 6 content, you will find more and more situations where you still have to deal the damage while keeping high enough health to be able to deal the damage.
Without going into the math i understand the "penalty" if you don't get an "extra" fireball, but i'm pretty sure that logic isn't correct: You should be just as likely to get a fireball in on the nth cast because of spell haste that you wouldn't have got in if you hadn't had it.
For example, say you had enough spell haste to get you to cast at 2.9 seconds vs. 3 (requires 3.48% haste), and every fireball does 100 dps
If the boss fight is x seconds, the caster with 2.9 speed has done y damage, and the 3.0 caster has done z damage...
Conclusion: Averages out to 1% haste = 1% extra dps
Agreeing with the conclusions and taking the 2.9s vs 3.0s example to try and spell it out in words...
If a mob dies in 8.7s the caster with the 2.9s fireball will have hit it three times, the caster with the 3.0s fireball will have hit it twice, but if the mob dies in 9.0s they both will have hit the mob three times.
i.e. The 2.9s caster needs to cast 29 times to get a guaranteed extra fireball, but even on shorter encounters he has the chance of landing an extra fireball, and will on average do more damage. Haste improves the cast time of every fireball, not its damage, but you have a chance to reap the benefits on every encounter by landing more spells, not to mention being slightly more mobile and less susceptible to push backs.
Aye, spell haste really becomes obvious tbh when you record your 'whole' damage done for a complete raid - Trash included. When you break it down boss by boss separately it's affects become less obvious. I know many probably don't record a whole raids worth of dps, but it's actually a very good way of seeing the difference between spec's and gear combinations.
I know many will argue that trash is irrelevant, but I'd argue otherwise.. I just want to clear and go to bed hehe. I have 146 Spell Haste, I doubt I'll go any higher with the current items available but overall I'm over the moon with my damage output.
I'm in a similar situation, now that I'm running a lot of heroics with the dailies I have plenty of badges. I have used [Veteran's Silk Cuffs] with a hit/dam gem and [Flametongue Seal] for nearly all my raiding thus far.
That would be true if you casted 1 spell and just sat there the rest of the fight.
However, since a mage casts spells that can benefit from haste back to back....it doesn't matter if you casted 3 spells at 5 seconds each or 5 spells at 3 seconds each...you still have the same benefit from haste on dps.
This has been explained multiple times before in previous threads.
Per point of haste rating you are getting x amount of seconds worth of spell damage additional per spell. Getting 20% off a 2 sec cast nets less damage earned on the portion of the next spell cast that's still within the range of the saved time from haste. They have spell damage co-effcients for a reason. Also, the benefit varies a lot near the end of combat. Compare a hasted fireball to frostbolt for example, given X time before the end of battle, the frost mage could be getting more damage out than the fire mage because he got 2 extra frostbolts off while the fire mage only got 1. But in another case a fire mage could score 1 more fireball and the frost mage 1.9 more frostbolts, which rounds to only one since that last frostbolt went no where.
Looking at the last 5 seconds of combat is a rather pointless exercise in determining your total dps output of say a 4 or 5 minute fight when considering the value of haste. You need to look at it as one continuos spell...and see how many you added throughout the entire fight.
A non hasted fireball w/ 0 latency would have 100 casts in a 5 minute fight w/o having to move
At 91 haste (which is what I run at) you would have 106 casts in a 5 minute fight w/ 0 latency and not having to move
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove here to be honest.
Right now Vontre's spreadsheet shows me as supposedly getting better DPS with 33/28 rather than 10/48/3 or even 2/47/11. I am not fully geared out as I know is part of the problem. I put everything to where I want to be and 2/47/11 shows as being better. If someone could throw some advice as to if 33/28 is truly better or if the elemental precision with 10/48/3 would be more beneficial as my +spell hit is not capped either.
Per point of haste rating you are getting x amount of seconds worth of spell damage additional per spell.
No, thats not what haste is. Haste decreases your casting time.
So to rephrase your statement, "Per point of hast rating, you are getting x amount of seconds shaved off your casting time, hence having the ability to cast more spells within a given time period."
Getting 20% off a 2 sec cast nets less damage earned on the portion of the next spell cast that's still within the range of the saved time from haste. They have spell damage co-effcients for a reason.
No. Haste and reduced casting time (from talents) do not effect the coefficient, so there is no reduced dmg because of haste.
And haste rating has nothing to do with the choice of spells, whether its frostbolt or fireball. If you are very keen on increasing your damage in the last few seconds of a fight, spam scorch.
<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse
I need your advice on my way of playing.
In my 25-men raid, I rarely reach the top 5 spots in WWS (apart from some AE-type Bosses).
Moreover, we have some really good BM hunters and Warlock(s) who manage to go over 1000 dps which I never seem to obtain (barely 750-800 most of the time).
I respecced 2/48/11 yesterday.
My spell rotation : scorch x5 (when alone) + fb and refresh scorch
Under 20% : Scorch refresh + fireblast + fb x 2
COE is up and I had a shadowpriest in my group.
As only mage yesterday I was sheeping most of the time on trash mobs.
I play with Molten Armor and Flask of supreme power or pure death.
Here is the WWS report from our last night SSC : Wow Web Stats
The report is in French so here are some quick translations (any other terms, don't hesitate to ask):
Boule de feu -> Fireball
Trait de feu -> Fireblast
Brûlure -> Scorch
Enflammer -> Incinerate
Vague Explosive -> Blast wave
Tir -> Shoot (wand)
Infection rampante -> (ramping infection ?) from the big elementals
Armure de la fournaise -> Molten armor
Javelot de glace -> Ice lance
Nova de givre -> Ice nova
Right now Vontre's spreadsheet shows me as supposedly getting better DPS with 33/28 rather than 10/48/3 or even 2/47/11. I am not fully geared out as I know is part of the problem. I put everything to where I want to be and 2/47/11 shows as being better. If someone could throw some advice as to if 33/28 is truly better or if the elemental precision with 10/48/3 would be more beneficial as my +spell hit is not capped either.
Looks like a matter of gear, the real power of deep fire lies in empowered fireball's superior scaling with +dmg, and only starts to leave 33/28 behind at higher amounts of +dmg. I can't give you an exact cutoff point, but 33/28 is pretty effective for quite some time, and actually still excels at certain things even at the tier 6 level, but for raw single target damage it will let you down some day.
The whole compare mage X with 2.9s fireball and mage Y with 3.0s fireball is a very bad way to make the point.
I could make the same argument for any relavent mage stat.
Mage X has 430 int and Mage Y has 460 int
...math...
See mage Y does more damage on average! (int does = crit afterall)
We usually do not have the option of picking up a piece of gear with the same stats + Y more. We instead assign tradeoff values. 1 dmg = x crit = y haste etc.
Run a simulator (with plausible fight lengths and frequency of interupts) with Mage X having more damage than Mage Y and Mage Y having more haste than Mage X. (with a conversion ratio given by a current TC calculator) That would be interesting and meaningfull.
Assuming two mages equal with exception of a stat you are trying to prove meaningfull is a fallacious argument in that it doesn't cover the "cost" of getting more of that stat.
Finding this current issue interesting, I decided to try out the value of haste vs the value of dmg.
I unfortunately neither have the gear, nor the active account to test this out myself.
However, if I mess around with Vontre's Spreadsheet, these are the values I get.
(I am using 2/48/11 spec, and discussing fireball dps increases/decreases, in a 5 minute fight, with 500 int, 164 hit rating, and 350 crit rating...no buffs nor debuffs such as flasks and scorch)
+ 100 dmg seems to be valued higher than 100 haste rating until +840 dmg.
From + 840 dmg onwards, haste is valued higher than +dmg. (this is with 0 haste rating).
As your haste rating increases, the value of haste decreases as compared to the value of +dmg.
Assuming +1200 dmg, 100 haste rating is valued equally to +100 dmg if you already have 350 haste rating (DPS at 1300dmg with 350 rating is the same as DPS at 1200dmg with 450 haste rating).
However, 1200dmg with 400 haste rating is worth more than 1300 dmg with 300 haste rating, meaning haste is more valuable until the stage of 350 haste rating at that level of +dmg.
Other stats such as crit int spirit etc..., have a very minimal impact of the valuation of haste vs dmg (0.01 dps difference with 100 crit rating).
Obviously this will vary for everyone since I used specific stats in my calculations, but it seems that haste is valued higher than +dmg at high end PvE (until you reach 350 haste rating).
<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse
I need your advice on my way of playing.
In my 25-men raid, I rarely reach the top 5 spots in WWS (apart from some AE-type Bosses).
Moreover, we have some really good BM hunters and Warlock(s) who manage to go over 1000 dps which I never seem to obtain (barely 750-800 most of the time).
I respecced 2/48/11 yesterday.
My spell rotation : scorch x5 (when alone) + fb and refresh scorch
Under 20% : Scorch refresh + fireblast + fb x 2
COE is up and I had a shadowpriest in my group.
As only mage yesterday I was sheeping most of the time on trash mobs.
I play with Molten Armor and Flask of supreme power or pure death.
Here is the WWS report from our last night SSC : Wow Web Stats
How is your cooldown management? Do you have a plan for 3min fights, 4min fights, 5min fights...etc? For example, on 5min fights, you should be able to Trinket up 3 times and use 3min cooldowns (IV, Combustion, AP) twice. Do you make use of Flame Caps and Destro Pots? All these make a big difference in your DPS, especially if you're able to stack trinkets, cooldowns, and destro pots/flame caps (can you stack Flame caps and Destro pots? I've never tried, as I always had either my Potion cooldown or Gem cooldown up) at execute range.
I need your advice on my way of playing.
In my 25-men raid, I rarely reach the top 5 spots in WWS (apart from some AE-type Bosses).
Moreover, we have some really good BM hunters and Warlock(s) who manage to go over 1000 dps which I never seem to obtain (barely 750-800 most of the time).
I looked at your karathress combatlog, which is a really basic fight for mages. In the course of 8'10" of fight, you cast 60 fireballs, 24 Scorch, 15 Fireblast. This is 3'58" worth of offensive casting, a bit less than half the duration of the fight. You should focus on chaincasting a lot more.
To be able to do this, you have to carefully manage your position, to avoid moving and interrupting your casting as much as possible. You also have to think as little as possible about what you have to do at a given time. Activating trinkets should be macroed, and you should never hesitate about the moment where you consume something (pots, gems, evo...).
By the way, marevess was not CoE'ed, so remind your warlock curse-bot to apply it !
Indeed for Karathress it was our second down, so my positionning wasn't that great. I'll work on that anyway as it seems it's one of my major defaults.
Regarding trinkets and CD managements, I maccroed as much as I could so buffs and trinkets are always in use or in CD.
About flame caps and destru pot, I have to be honest and declare that I never use them. Cooldowns are pretty much used all the time by gems or health / mana potion.
If you see anything else, feel free to share, I'll welcome any good advice!
Thanks to the ones who casted an eye on my profil.
Is it wise to keep trinkets macro'ed to your primary attack? I'd imagine there are many situations where activating a trinket at any given time would waste most of its potential, or where you'd want to hold off the extra burst for a few seconds. last few fireballs before lurker submerges, last spell before hydross transitions, right before leo switches forms and dumps aggro, curator evocation, illhoof right after the imp dies, kael'thas phase 2 or shield/egg on phase 4, etc.
does anyone switch between having a trinket/IV/primary spell macro and a separate trinket/IV macro depending on the situation, or do people generally keep it all macro'ed together?
Well what I had was one macro that launched fireball along with all my other cooldowns, and another macro with just a fireball. I would use the CD + fireball macro for trash.
For bosses I would use the normal fireball macro, until my cooldown timer told me something had finished its CD, and then I would use the macro at the right time.
It's also about managing the time between cooldowns as well, since you don't wanna have to wait so long on one cooldown so that all your other cooldown could have been used a second time within that time frame.
Icon's got a 2 minute CD.
Combustion's got a 3 minute CD.
Icy veins got a 3 minute CD.
Depending on the length of the fight, you manage when to use your CDs.
For bosses like lurker and hydros, I would save the cooldowns till the next stage (after spout, after transition) in order to maximise dps and not overagro from 2k ignites :P
<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse
It's also about managing the time between cooldowns as well, since you don't wanna have to wait so long on one cooldown so that all your other cooldown could have been used a second time within that time frame.
Icon's got a 2 minute CD.
Combustion's got a 3 minute CD.
Icy veins got a 3 minute CD.
Depending on the length of the fight, you manage when to use your CDs.
Actually, the cooldown of Combustion is closer to 3:30, since the 3 minutes only start ticking once the combustion stack/charges are used up. Same with Presence of Mind, but that usually gets used up in the same instant it's cast.
A button with everything macroed and your primary spell in it is very handy - on trash, or when you're running around and have things to watch other than your cooldowns (Doomfires/TV), but I'd strongly advise have a normal, plain /cast button as well for control.
Checking our raid logs, I see that I use my WE summon and cold snap not even close to every cooldown.
I need to find out how I can improve that, any help is appreciated, but it probably boils down to "suck less" or something.
Especially since a spell such as Icy Veins starts the 3 minute cooldown straight away, and Combustion won't start counting down until you've burned all 3 critical charges, this causes the spells to de-synch slightly, depending on how fast you get your Combustion used, that would make it unwise to have it macro'ed together on your primary nuking hotkey, as you would lose control over when to be able to synch stuff properly.
Personally I have R, as my Fireball primay attack and a keybinding: Shift + Spacebar as my macro'ed IV/Combustion + trinkets, and also a different version very similar, but only with a series of mana gems included for the Serpent-coil Braid. I switch these around in the keybinding slot, depending on what group make ups I'll have.
I think it's in your best interest to get to use trinkets together with IV as much as possible for a maximum use of the added on-use spelldamage, with IV you're likely to be able to get as much as 7-8 spells of with the added on-use spelldamage whereas you'd only get a maximum of 6 FBs casted without it. Of course though, you aren't going to be waiting a whole minute to be able to put these together, it's circumstantial.
I also find that it's very important to be able to control when you get this burst of damage & not at any given time in an encounter, for example on Kael'thas tonight I preferred saving CD's for the Phoenix eggs, rather than spending it on Kael'thas while waiting for them to spawn & die.
I got Hex & Icon so there's a lot of cooldowns to monitor, but typically I will use Hex/Combustion/IV straight away in a fight, then Icon 20 seconds later. Hex will be alone on it's next cd, but Icon will be close to be able to be paired with Combustion & IV so that works out quite nicely.
Is it wise to keep trinkets macro'ed to your primary attack? I'd imagine there are many situations where activating a trinket at any given time would waste most of its potential, or where you'd want to hold off the extra burst for a few seconds. last few fireballs before lurker submerges, last spell before hydross transitions, right before leo switches forms and dumps aggro, curator evocation, illhoof right after the imp dies, kael'thas phase 2 or shield/egg on phase 4, etc.
does anyone switch between having a trinket/IV/primary spell macro and a separate trinket/IV macro depending on the situation, or do people generally keep it all macro'ed together?
Haven't tried it but it might be useful to have your primary attack without any trinkets and your attack button with a modifier (ctrl or alt) to do your trinketed combo.
Originally Posted by Roywyn
Checking our raid logs, I see that I use my WE summon and cold snap not even close to every cooldown.
I need to find out how I can improve that, any help is appreciated, but it probably boils down to "suck less" or something.
Try to have an addon that alerts your cooldown is over, this way you will be more likely to use it.
Checking our raid logs, I see that I use my WE summon and cold snap not even close to every cooldown.
I need to find out how I can improve that, any help is appreciated, but it probably boils down to "suck less" or something.
In my experience, cooldown monitoring comes from experience with the fight.
When I can autopilot my Blood Boil dodging and fireblasting on Gurtogg, then I can start trying to maximize my cooldown effectiveness. It's the same for almost every fight - the first two to three times I'm learning it there are other things I want to concentrate on. After that becomes background, my cooldowns get synchronized to the right times on the fight.
01/08/08, 8:43 AM
