I've seen a lot of talk about arcane/frost being marginally better than 2/47/11 come 2.4, and I just don't see how it could be worth it. With arcane/frost you lose all of your pushback resistance, and would still need another mage to go deep frost or fire/frost (w/WC) to beat fire. It also requires the use of dps cycles which can't be maintained in many fights. It does have the distinction of being extremely low threat, but what else does it have?
I tried arcane back in it's prime, and it was still just barely better than fire. I love frost also, but it just doesn't work for many encounters for the same reasons arcane doesn't. Also a majority of my guild's raids dps comes from mages/melee. Our warlocks lag far behind in everything but aoe.
Thanks Dryssa and Pintofbrew. I didn't even think about grinding all the way to exalted. Since I already have 4 of the cards I think I am going to go ahead and finish the deck for now. I might end up eventually making the Stone as well, but I think this will benefit me sooner than the stone will. Appreciate the input!
I appreciate these are the TC forums, so the answer is "LOL STFU AND L2TC" a little bit, but has anyone done much comparison of how TC numbers stack up to real world encounters?
Three things for the the record:
1) You will never see LOL, STFU, L2*whatever* on these forums. If you do, you will not see them for long.
2) Please refrain from signing your posts. This, and the fact that you will not see acronyms as per 1), are rules that are outlined in the stickies at the top of of the class mechanics forum. It appears you have not read them yet, so I suggest you do just so that you don't find yourself inexplicably in trouble.
3) Theorycraft IS what happens in real world encounters. That being said, like any other econometric model, there is some measure of variance that is innate to the system. The bottom-line conclusions of theorycraft can swing wildly given moderate changes in variables such as latency, gearing, spec, psychology, and (the most intangible and unquantifiable of all) play skill.
The first three variables are self explanatory. When I say psychology, what I mean is that sometimes people, for no descernable reason at all, just fall in love with their ideas. Generally this most often relates to choice of spec. Even when they tell themselves that they will give both sides a fair shake when testing to see which setup is better, they will subconsciously sabotage the results in favor of one or the other. Maybe they didn't put forth real effort in stacking their cooldowns at the <20% mark as fire, chug destruction potions and/or flamecaps (mana otherwise allowing), or just flat out didn't try hard. Unfortunately there is no real way to correct for psycology.
When I say playskill, I am referring to attentiveness (recognizing and maximizing the use of resources available to you), positioning (physical, for both maximizing dps time and not dying to environmental effects), timing (especially in cooldown usage), and ability to see the big picture (see: Vashj/Kael'thas), among myriad other things. As you move these variables towards one pole or another, optimal strategies vary too. A player that is not adept at positioning themselves out of harms way will not likely find much success in deep frost (water elemental). Not paying attention to stacking your cooldowns properly hurts deep fire. With only one caveat, if your guildmates are finding that they are getting better results from arcane specs, then there is something in either latency, gearing, psychology, or playskill that they are going to need to try to improve.
The one caveat is that theorycraft is an imperfect art. Events in this game are in some cases exceptionally complex beasts, and therefore difficult to model accurately and precisely. Scrictly speaking, your guildmates could win their argument by pointing out a flaw or shortcoming in current methods, but this would require both a lot of thinking paired with a rigorous proof. That being said, I generally put full faith into the conclusions reached by a core group of people on this forum, notably Roywyn, Vontre, Manly, galzohar, and Pintofbrew. They are exceptionally bright people, and rarely, if ever completely wrong. I suggest pointing your guildies (not just mages) to these forums, have them read the threads, and see if they are still comfortable with their position.
I have a quick question that I'm sure one of you will be able to answer. I tried searching threads with the Search function but it doesn't play nice.
I don't play a mage, but I like learning a lot about end game raiding. One of my guild mages suggested that frost spells have a base +3% chance to hit over fire spells but they are binary spells (whatever that means)
This is the list he put up :
Frost - 126 with Elemental Precision
Fire - 164 with Elemental Precision
Arcane - 76 with Arcane Focus
Is this correct? Or should frost mages still get 164 spell hit with Elemental Precision?
I was hesitant to post a rather generalized question here, but I was not able to really find it answered clearly elsewhere.
I am attempting to do some analysis on my mage's DPS in relation to my gear in order to make sure I maximize my performance (i.e., do the most damage possible in my gear). Could you recommend the tools and methodology needed to start an analysis like this? I have already arranged my talents appropriately, acheived the maximum spell hit rating, and geared to the best of my current ability -- just want to measure how my skill and performance is holding up vis-a-vis my potential performance.
Thanks for all the info you all have put into these threads, I have used many of them, and I appreciate the time and effort involved.
Well, one detail needs particular mention. Almost every TC assumes 100% usage of your best dps stat; namely, time. If your results don't match TC, more likely than not, it is because the player has not been using time as much as TC predicted. I don't know why some people don't view time the same way they see mana -- both are a resource you need to use/play around with. Improper timing of cooldowns will impact your dps, but nowhere near the level it will if one uses only 90% (example) of the dps time. Every movement done while not on GCD is dps lost. Every non-offensive action done while offensive action could have been made is sub-optimal, and TC will always assume no threat issues and 100% usage of time.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Frost - 126 with Elemental Precision
Fire - 164 with Elemental Precision
Arcane - 76 with Arcane Focus
Is this correct? Or should frost mages still get 164 spell hit with Elemental Precision?
Elemental precision is currently giving 6% hit to frost instead of 3% as intended. (Often refered to as ghost hit) So yes, a frost mage only needs 10% hit after talents to reach the hit cap. (12.6 * 10)
Since it is technically a bug, it could be changed at any time. However it has survived several patches now.
On a new subject:
I was playing around with time to die mod and got it to show time until execute/MF range. I also changed the estimation code a bit so as to not be so linear. (Gives equally weighted values to estimations for the previous 15% of life) It is a bit better at estimations (doesn't jump around as much) however it still isn't where it needs to be.
Any math guru's out there lend some help? To me this sounds like a simple filter problem, yet being unfamiliar with this sort of thing, I haven't found one that values old events more than recent. All the DSP's I find tend to favor more recent events or are linear. I could probably find one eventually, but was hoping someone here could point me in the right direction.
There's also Vontre's magegraf model on the internet which works similar to Lihvera's model (look around for them :P)
But basically mess around with variables and see how your dps changes.
Obviously these models will most likely never give you your actual dps, seeing as they assume a tank and spank fight in which you are constantly dpsing, not account for threat etc...
But they should give you an idea on how to improve your dps and hopefuly give you an idea of what you should or shouldn't use in an encounter based on your gear choices.
<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse
Which spec would give the highest possible damage on a critted pom pyro? Is it 33/28/0, 40/21/0, or something else?
We assume around 1200 spell power (without mind mastery).
Which spec would give the highest possible damage on a critted pom pyro? Is it 33/28/0, 40/21/0, or something else?
We assume around 1200 spell power (without mind mastery).
I have never seen this discussed anywhere.
This will depend on how much int you have for mind mastery to overcome 8% bonus damage(assuming 1pt in PwF for 40/21/0).
The good news is that spellfire/spellstrike will take you far thru T5. Much of what you see drop there will be a sidegrade with more stats on it, and you will watch your + dam come slowly down while this happens.
If you can get your spellhit up I would say 2/48/11 is the way to go. I was an arcane mage before 2.3 and I loved it for playstyle, but a) it is resource piggy and in our raids we get a bigger bang for our buck giving the SP/Boomkin to the destro locks than to an arcane mage and b) it simply does not scale as well as fire does.
In order to raise your +hit, you can of course use gems (+5 dam/+4 hit being my favorite). The CE ring and scryer trinket are both nice pieces, as are the wand off shade and the cloak off prince. I find that I would be swapping those 4 pieces around in different combos based upon whether I had an elemental shammy in my group, and whether I could stay close enough to their totems for it to matter.
In fact, we are just starting out in MH/BT (3/5, 0/9) and I don't anticipate breaking my spellfire set until 2.4 comes out and I can buy the chest and gloves with badges. I have the belt of blasting waiting for that day. Unless you are lucky enough to get the Vestiments of the Sea Witch to drop off Vashj, or to get 4pT5 you may be in spellfire for a long while. Spellstrike I broke for my 2pT5 bonus when I was thinking of staying arcane, but it probably was a mistake in retrospect (dkp wise).
1) You will never see LOL, STFU, L2*whatever* on these forums. If you do, you will not see them for long.
2) Please refrain from signing your posts. This, and the fact that you will not see acronyms as per 1), are rules that are outlined in the stickies at the top of of the class mechanics forum. It appears you have not read them yet, so I suggest you do just so that you don't find yourself inexplicably in trouble.
Keyne, my apologies - I have indeed read the sticky/rules, and I (edit) clearly can't read properly. Sorry.
The comment regarding LOLSTFU etc was meant fairly tongue in cheek - sorry if it didn't come across this way.
On the main bulk of your post, thanks for an insightful answer, it's much appreciated.
Averly - I regemmed last night so I'm up to 122 hit, tried a fire/icy veins spec for the first time - and made sure to keep my combustion/icy available for the final 20% of Lady Vashj. I don't have a detailed stats breakdown (one step at a time in the world of TC) but my damage output was significantly improved from previous Vashj fights.
My guild just downed Council and will be starting our first series of attempts on Illidan. I've heard deep frost is the best spec for learning Illidan, but is it hyper-critical? We currently have three regular mages, two of which are arcane and I run fire. The arcane mages aren't planning on switching, and I was pondering deep frost for add control since my gear is better optimized for elemental specs. Could I stay fire and just redistribute some of the 11 frost points (I was thinking 3/3 perma, 1/3 imp blizz)?
Don't look at my spec right now 'cause it's some random Council mage tanking spec. I'll be respecing once the servers are up.
Reason you don't want fire when learning Illidan is simple, phase 2 which you want to get down as fast as possible and they are immune to fire. Having frostnova+shatter and lollance is also nice against parasites...
Is it a necessity to be frost or arcane? Absolutely not, does it make phase 2 easier and also even parasite handling easier? Yes.
Our problem in P2 was never DPS but people/tanks dying in the fire. But more dps surely helps.
Shatter is not really helpful for parasites either. I have found they die almost instantly anyway with 3 people casting/shooting at them. What does help is a permafrosted CoC, but you get that without deep frost.
What really helps is 3/3 Imp. Blizzard. I am 0/47/14 ever since we downed Illidan the second time (of course I was frost too the first two kills for min/max ) and it helps tremendously on Illidan Demons (Hyjal Trash an ZA Timed Runs too, btw ). You lose some minor fragments of dps for the next Teron DPS Record though ^^
A question about the 2/48/11 spec: is it really useful to have points if Dragon's Breath, Pyroblast and Blast Wave? I'm thinking some of those points could be better spent on Arcane focus for when I'm mage tanking Krosh.
A question about the 2/48/11 spec: is it really useful to have points if Dragon's Breath, Pyroblast and Blast Wave? I'm thinking some of those points could be better spent on Arcane focus for when I'm mage tanking Krosh.
If you don't use any of those, sure, you can move the points to Arcane Focus. I don't suggest moving more than two points because anything more than that should be overkill. (Rationale: Two points in Arcane Focus gives +4% hit with Arcane. Elemental Precision only gives +3% hit for Fire. If you're using Scorch to help generate/keep aggro, you should already be geared with enough +hit to be at the hit cap with Elemental Precision.)
Personally, since I use Blast Wave and Dragon's Breath a fair bit, I traded out the two points in Incinerate for two in Arcane Focus. This does result in a DPS hit but, since I'm still the primary Krosh tank for our raiding alliance (and having Spellsteal resisted is bad), I figure I can live with it.
A question about the 2/48/11 spec: is it really useful to have points if Dragon's Breath, Pyroblast and Blast Wave? I'm thinking some of those points could be better spent on Arcane focus for when I'm mage tanking Krosh.
Dragon's Breath and Blastwave are where fire gets it's aoe power. If you are getting into T5 content, you will use plenty of aoe for boss encounters in SSC/TK.
Krosh is not a hard fight to "tank" as a mage. Stacking spell hit is nice, but having a good healer is better. I've been hit capped in my tank gear and still got 2 resists in a row on krosh. Combine that with the very real chance you will lose the shield while he's casting a fireball, and you can get 2 shot by him. Just warn your healer your shield has 5 seconds on it, and to precast max rank heals. A prot pally with good healing gear can solo heal a krosh tank, with nothing more than raid buffs and a mana pot or 2.
A question about the 2/48/11 spec: is it really useful to have points if Dragon's Breath, Pyroblast and Blast Wave? I'm thinking some of those points could be better spent on Arcane focus for when I'm mage tanking Krosh.
Another option is finding something you can socket w/ hit easily or something that has +stam and +hit. Bracers of Havoc with stam enchant + hit gem, the CE exalted ring come to mind immediately, and are relatively easy to obtain. There's also plenty of items out there that take a little more time to obtain but that can be used to hit high HP and high hit%.
TBH the 2/48/11 spec works a little better in Hyjal / BT IMO anyway . . . if you're not *guaranteed* a shadow priest, I really felt the fights in SSC / TK are generally tougher on mana pools (a little longer on average, and several fights with a lot of AE which just drains a mage) and these zones are doable w/o Icy Veins. Best option is IV if you can keep mana up on most fights, and IV should be kinda clutch on Vashj / Kael'Thas, but it's reasonable to look at clearcasting here IMO.
Dragon's Breath and Blastwave are where fire gets it's aoe power. If you are getting into T5 content, you will use plenty of aoe for boss encounters in SSC/TK.
Because of their long cool downs, I usually end up spamming Arcane Explosion for my AoE needs. But that's been for trash, and I imagine that on some longer fights those two spells might be more mana efficient.
Originally Posted by Sinborn
Krosh is not a hard fight to "tank" as a mage. Stacking spell hit is nice, but having a good healer is better. I've been hit capped in my tank gear and still got 2 resists in a row on krosh. Combine that with the very real chance you will lose the shield while he's casting a fireball, and you can get 2 shot by him. Just warn your healer your shield has 5 seconds on it, and to precast max rank heals. A prot pally with good healing gear can solo heal a krosh tank, with nothing more than raid buffs and a mana pot or 2.
Yeah, I've actually never had a problem so far with being resisted; mana use is more of a problem. I just figured that if the talent points were basically being wasted on those 3 spells, putting the extra points in arcane would allow give me a bit more insurance. But if you're telling me that those spells will be more useful during the SSC/TK boss fights, I'll keep them.
To be more specific on the use of DB/BW: they're not just instacast aoe, but also stuns and slows, which makes healers' jobs easier on some fights, and possibly saves lives:
Morogrim's murlocs
Solarian's agent waves
Trouble is, that's about it. You wouldn't use them on Hydross' adds, as the frost side would put the melee at risk; you face similar risk at Kael'Thas' weapons in phase 2. None of the other bosses have AoE opportunities.
Hyjal is another story - it's virtually all AoE. Again, though, some of it is risky - abominations will deal poison to you; felstalkers will mana burn you unless you outrange them.
The main reason not to pump arcane hit is, again, the fact that you're probably hitcapped anyway. If anything, I'm inclined toward throwing those points in frost if you want, for better performance on Alar and later, Supremus. Meanwhile, I actually moved points from incinerate to improved flamestrike. (And I kept DB and BW; go figure.)
I've been reading EJ and this thread for awhile now, and it has been very helpful in maximizing my raid performance. I've used Vontre's DPS spreadsheet and done everything that I have found important in maximizing my DPS, but it's always nice to have someone more knowledgeable and more experienced take a look and give you their two cents, which is exactly what I am asking for. Before you say anything, I know my spec is wonky. I was playing with it earlier and haven't had time to spec back to 2/48/11.
If someone here would take a look at my armory and give any tips on what I can improve on I would really appreciate it.
My first thought looking at your gear is how your gems are set. You're losing a lot of potential +dmg by gemming straight hit gems in those slots. Ideally if you NEED to gem for hit you should put in Veiled Noble Topazes which are more bang for your buck. You have [Band of Dominion]; it's a nice ring but are you Exalted Cenarion? You could pick up [Ashyen's Gift] which will give you some nice passive +hit and let you gem out some of those wretched +8 hit gems with some Veiled Topazes instead. It looks like you're raiding Kara at least so I'd also tell you to gun for the [Ruby Drape of the Mysticant]. Your goal right now should be to clear out those +8 hit gems and replace them with more worthwhile gems, not to mention being able to replace the +hit enchant on your gloves with spell damage enchant.
03/11/08, 3:21 PM
) and it helps tremendously on Illidan Demons (Hyjal Trash an ZA Timed Runs too, btw ). You lose some minor fragments of dps for the next Teron DPS Record though ^^
