pipermoonrunner

I am not sure about that. it's lower than my expectation, but mana isn't an issue for fire anyway. and I recalculated all stats based on the haste loots that I could get from ZA and badges, I got the follow result from the script:

int: 432
spi 258
fire 1110
hit 159
crit 234
haste 123

1 hit = 1.48 dmg, 1 crit = 0.68, 1 haste = 1.02.

so haste scales up as you get more of it?

 

Gilthanor

I'm still looking for a more generic spell sequence to pass along. Should they be popping Dragon's Breath, Blast Wave, Flamestrike, then spamming AE? Should they be using AE at all? Should they be spamming Flamestrike? What's the scoop on AoE as a deep fire mage?

 

galzohar

There is no way haste scales up as you get more of it. Going from 101% to 102% is slightly worse relative increase than going from 100% to 101%.

Or you can look at it that spell damage is worth more DPS when you're at 101% cast speed compared to 100% while 1% haste will give the same DPS increase.

Any other way to look at haste you could come up with is probably misleading unless haste mechanic has a componenet I'm unaware of, but AFAIK a certain amount of haste rating gives a certain %haste increase, which makes you cast at 100%+haste% speed. The casting time in this case isn't relevant to the calculation as you would just turn it back in to speed increase, as you're looking at DPS increases and not time reductions as a final result.

 

Pintofbrew

Haste is not impressing me at this junction in time: While for arcane missile spam it was better than spellpower, it remains to be seen if indeed there is merit in stacking a lot (over 170) haste on passive ZA gear. The whole thing reeks too much of Diablo 2 "cast speed" spec: Designed to cause massive rate-of-cast, but with the existence of GCD such an exploit isn't possible in WoW. Given almost all simulators give haste as near as doesn't matter to damage, the question becomes are mages (of the appropriate gear range for ZA) willing to trade mixed gear with hit dmg and crit for jungle-gear with only dmg and haste? I sure wouldn't take off Blasting boots for Madness footpads, or put on those wonky troll-pads in place of Elven Kings. And I doubt spell strike pants can be substituted by those funky arcane annihilations from badges.

 

Copernicus

Haste is fine. Hit rating is better until the cap, but that's because it's cheaper to get.

Stacking +dmg is good where you can get it, because +dmg has always been the superior stat. But if there's a balanced item for haste/hit/dmg etc, it'll be good due to the way itemization works.

 

Aranan

So Illhoof finally dropped The Lightning Capacitator last night and I won it. Yay...

I also took the time to do some messing around in Karazhan to test the frost spell hit issue. I had 10.07% hit for the following fights (plus the assumed +6% from EP):

Curator - 57 frostbolt hits, 1.2% missed
Aran - 39 frostbolt hits, 0% missed
Illhoof - 51 frostbolt hits, 0% missed (the problem here is that I can't figure out how to look at frostbolt hits on just Illhoof and not the chains...)

It's another relatively small sample size, but it is agreeing with the 6% frostbolt hit theory.

 

spiderella

Dug these numbers up from discussion of our first night of attempts, our mages were debating which spells to use in p2, none of these values are from mages with more than 10 points in arcane. It's the sum of all p2 damage w/ the percent caused by Arcane Explosion, and then the total damage done.

18% AE - 56k dmg
42% AE - 78k dmg
48% AE - 62k dmg
54% AE - 65k dmg
66% AE - 95k dmg
67% AE - 99k dmg

I don't have any parses but our mages generally do 80%+ of p2 damage via AE, hitting 100-120k or even higher sometimes. Honestly the difference between spell power crits and not is smaller than one would think I believe, especially when factoring molten fury against it. AP similarly, we use full mana bars and AP doesn't improve that efficiency really. After much practice w/ 5 ae'rs p2 is pretty much a breeze, we stacked 7 maybe on our first kill though.

 

Pintofbrew

If you're that concerned with aoe and it is indeed so critical to your raid, perhaps there is merrit in ditching Incineration and getting 6% AE crit for a 13/45/3. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . It's doubtable the 4% scorch crit will make any noticeable difference: Under normal circumstances you'll cast no more than 30 scorches over a 10m single-target boss fight, and 4% of 30 hits is perhaps one more crit. 6% AE crit on the other hand...

 

pipermoonrunner

The only gears i am going to give up for haste are the ones with just +crit. i am keeping T5 pants and spellfire robe.

WhenI get home today I will have the bracers and offhand. I respec fire on Sunday so I could get a WWS on pre 2.3 fire. Hopefully I will get a couple more drops before we do vashj again (2% wipe on sunday ) and see just how much better it is.

 

vishal

I am sure some of you guys have tested this out, just curious:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Going to try it out tonight.

I loss fire damage:
1% Playing with fire,
10% Fire Power
15% Empower Fireball
Combustion

Gain:
30% mana regen
15% more int
50% more damage on crit
3% more crit
Arcane Power
PoM

I haven't really tested it out yet but what do you guys think?
I could remove 2pts from Fire Power to Master of Element; without raid buff i will be sitting at 36% crit so 38% crit raid buffed

 

◊ manly

One day, people will stop talking about 33/28 and all its variations, and realize it fails on many levels. The spec is made to scale towards crit (ie: 70%+ crit rate), but crit is infinitely more expansive ilvl-wise. But nevermind, the spec was originally designed for scorch spamming and as such, using it for any other use would be trying to retrofit a lada into a racecar - it wont work.

I already don't like AB rotations. I am not a proponent of frost spec, although I do recognise that at low gear levels the bugged EP can help a good bit ease up things. But you never hear me mention 40/0/21 or 33/28 because I am gueninely hoping that one day people would let those spec go.

I don't care if I see one parse of someone getting good dps with a shitty spec. You could have gotten better. Of course, shitty specs can dps too. I mean, even a blind squirrel is bound to find a nut eventually. On the other hand, if you can somehow show me any proof using Vontre's spreadsheet that 33/28 or 40/0/21 can beat 10/48/3 on a fight between 3 to 6 min (or make it 10 if you feel like it, but that will just favor 10/48/3 anyway). Show me the gear combination used to reach the numbers, then I'll show you the results for the same fight conditions using the best firespec gear and 10/48/3. If you can get within 50 dps of 10/48/3, I'll be impressed. I doubt it will happen tho.

The problem is that 33/28 was originally created using simulationcraft. Someone found through bruteforcing that a specific talent spec could possibly have good dps when you err towards high crit rates. The problem with simulationcraft is that it doesn't actually check gear itemisation. It just goes and 'oh hey look there - 60% base crit rate yields good results' without even realizing it just cannot be done with any gear available in game. Sure, if I could custom-tailor my gear it could see skipping haste alltogether and go for more crit. But in practice I see haste gear that is better than crit gear. That's just the way things are. Items are badly itemized. Spec have to adapt this harsh reality and realize that you should aim for a spec that relies mostly on +dmg, because its the most abundant/easiest stat that is accessible through gear.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

galzohar

That's more or less what I've been saying - even if you could gear yourself to make 33/28 better than 10/48/3 with your gear, you could probably still gear yourself properly (or properly for 10/48/3 at least) and do more damage.
33/28 doesn't work not because the talents are flawed, but because the itemization. Even if the breakpoint is at around 50% crit you still need to gimp your DPS in order to reach that which totally beats the purpose of considering 33/28 in the firstplace, which is doing more damage.

 

Kaimani

Honestly, even at 'normal' levels of crit/hit/dmg (that is, without going too far in any direction) 33/28 trails behind deep fire by such a tiny amount that I'd call it insignificant. You can plug the numbers into Vontre's spreadsheet if you'd like, or spend some gold and try it yourself for a week, but I think you'll find that the difference is very small when you're talking about fireball spam, especially if you have an elemental shaman with you. Personally, I am willing to trade a fraction of my single target nuking ability in exchange for superior AoE and the on-demand burst provided by AP, but I certainly don't believe that 33/28 can ever reliably beat 10/48/3 in single target nuking - only if it gets a lucky string of clearcasts/crits.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I think a lot of the skepticism about this spec is in direct relation to the number of morons who have supported it, specifically 'scorch mages'. The very idea of a 'scorch spamming' build has always been absurd, and I think 33/28 gets a bad rap from experienced mages because they associate it with clowns who don't know what end is up. I'd like to think I'm a fairly pragmatic mage and make my decisions based on facts and data I've collected, not hunches or theoretical (but impossible) levels of crit.

 

Beska

One of the only items that have caught my eye from the heroic badge reward vendor is the offhand, [Fetish of the Primal Gods]. I have a bunch of badges and I'm thinking about taking it over the Flametongue. Although Vontre's sheet doesn't work for me, Lhivera's script shows it as a 2-3dps~ downgrade.

I've never, never thought about haste, although now it's much more accessible and I'm wondering what the ideal Fire mage set would be now, and any advice you could give me about the above offhands. It seems that there really is a lot of debate about haste right now, though.

 

ReignConfused

Well I wouldn't recommend haste for you if you're using Fireblast on every available cooldown .

But haste is impossible (In my opinion) to theorycraft accurately, it's something that I'm sort of offhandedly building and waiting on WWS parsings and what not from people who seriously give it a go to actually make up my mind. That way if it sucks oh well I wasted time in ZA and hopefully got hood of hexing. If it's good then I'm halfway there!

Even with other people testing it out in game and Blizzard making tweaks I think it's going to boil down a lot to personal playstyle and gear choices as to whether it's worth it or not.

 

Roywyn

Hm, I'm looking for a good pet macro. My current macro is:

The bolded italic part does not work, it's probably not a working macro script.

When I press the button, it summons the WE. Press it again, and it starts attacking my target, and gives me a targeting circle for Freeze.

Also, when I switch targets, I press the button and the elemental switches targets as well.

Here is the catch though:
If the WE is attacking my target, adn I press the button, it gets a "/petattack" command, which will cause it to stop its current frostbolt and start a new cast.

So - any ideas how to make it that the "/petattack" is only sent if he's attacking no target or another target than mine?
I know, it's a bit minor, but I want a button that does what I want with mindless mashing :o

Also appreciating any other input on pet macros and little tricks.

 

Beska

I'm starting to think of haste like, an extension of hit/crit. For example, in the past we have only had to mangle getting a good ratio of hit/crit on our gear (damage comes naturally with those two stats). Now however we have an extra stat - haste. I just think there needs to be some definitive calculations to show how to compares to both.

Thinking about it logically, getting a spell off faster is literally more DPS since you're doing more damage per second. But if each Fireball hits for less or doesn't crit as often, you might just lose the DPS you've gained there.

I'm really interested in some calculations to show which is the best offhand.

 

Casimir

Hi

First: I am from Germany and my english is a little bit rusty ... Please have patience with me.

I just wondered about the impact of Hit-, Crit- and Haste-Rating on Fire-raw-DPS.
But all the discussion i was able to finde was not very informative. So i decided to do the maths by myself.

Basics: Deep-Fire-Specc. Skilled Ignite. Fireball casting. It's only a RELATIVE compare. No more basics needed.

The blue line represents Hit-Rating.
The pink line represents Haste-Rating.
The yellow line represents Crit-Rating.

On the X-order is shown the 'Rating-Value'
On the Y-order is shown a RELATIVE Damage-Value. To make it simple: Modif



As you can see:
- The cheapest and easiest way to get DPS is to cap Hit. (Any News ? oO )
- Haste does not differ significantly from Crit in the lower Ratings. But if you get to stack more haste-rating it gets better and better.
- Crit is very expensive related to item-level.
- Haste is better when viewing the impact on raw dps. But haste does not improve your Mana-efficency. Not a bit. Nothing. Let me strain it. Nada. :-)
- Crit greatly improves your Many-Efficiency

Hope it helps you a little bit in your decision.
Greetz
Casi

 

Ignus

Wait, so according to that graph, stacking 0 crit rating and going entirely for haste rating will yield the best results? What if we take into account human error/latentcy? It would seem obvious that to capitalize on haste rating, one would need to chain cast with optimum efficiency and no lag effect, while a crit can be capitalized on even when not casting as fast as one should. Or maybe that the dps increase from haste is best used as a way to spread itemization points around on gear to avoid the heavy single stat itemization tax?

that graph sure does look good for haste rating. I'm just not sure how definitively accurate one should consider it when making a gear decision :O

 

Beska

Haste rating is confusing. Some people's calculations show it to be sub par and say that it shouldn't be used because it's cost is too high, whereas other calculations show it's excellent.

 

Casimir

Hm. Don't think, that Haste rating is much better than crit.
Look at the Ratings you need to REALLY get a big benefit from it (>300). To get such values, you have to forfeit many other stats like Crit and Hit. It's simply not possible to stack Haste to huge values without decreasing crit and hit.

My conclusions are:
- NEVER NEVER NEVER drop your Hit-Chance below 16%
- Haste is nice 2 have, but don't get Haste rating at the cost of other stats. It would decrease your Efficiency!
- Remember: Haste HAS NO EFFECT on Spells with Cast-Time <= GCD. Only Spells with CTime > 1,5s get better. So no Haste bombing ... :-)

 

Pintofbrew

Gentlemen you are interpreting a graph wrongly:

1) Ignus: Arguing "what if... human error" is out of context, when the man just posted a graph of how haste mathematically influences the game.

2) Ignus and Beska: You both didn't read the X-axis: The Axis scales from 0 to 700+. Yes haste goes bananas and scales much more intensely with more of it but this happens at unreachable levels. When you gain the potential to stack 600 haste, then it will clearly blow everything out of the water, but even then it won't matter because it'll be tweaked by blizzard (just like excessive melee haste was scaling too well earlier) or be capped somehow.

3) What we should do, is cut the sides off this graph, as niether hit past 202, nor crit past 400, nor haste past (circa) 300 exists realistically outside of gimmick specs.

IF you draw a line in the graph and cut off at X axis = 300 you'll notice that things scale much closer to each other and there is nothing in fact "excellent" about haste. It is merely a competitive stat, as are the others, with it's own advantages and disadvantages.

Casimir: Please don't use "2" in lieu of "to". As for16% hit isn't as high and mighty as you think: It's less 3% for frost currently, less 1% for dranei and less another 3% for people who are regularly grouped with an Ele shaman. Stacking all the haste possible it is fathomable that with the non-haste slots remaining the theoretical hitcap of 9% for a frost spec dranei mage grouped with a shaman there's plenty of haste going. Marginal and theoretical it may be, fact it still remains.

 

Roywyn

In your diagramme, the curve for haste is convex. It should be linear though.
Hit is linear until cap, then constant. Crit is linear. Those are fine.

But nothing with spellhaste makes it scale superlinear.
10% haste doesn't mean that you multiply cast time by 0.9, it means that you divide it by 1.1. Hence it increases your DPS by exactly 10%.

If you fix whatever is wrong, haste should be ~50% better than crit at most gear levels.

 

ReignConfused

I'd like an accurate equation on haste or an accurate graph or some confirmation from SOMEONE in the form of an equation. I've heard three different exactly opposite things now, which is incredibly frustrating when one is trying to figure out how to rate something. Two people are blowing smoke and one person is right.

The three things that people are saying about haste.

Most recently we see that Haste is a linear spell. Which makes a simple sort of sense to me, but still was not supported by ANY sort of concrete evidence

Before that we say Haste as a sort of exponential thing, where it only gets capped at the GCD. (where the graph stopped) if there was an equation you used to form this graph I would love to see it, as it stands you could have just been drawing lines though?

And even before that, when haste was still new there was a post about how haste scales down as you increase it, this one even cited simple math. 100% to 101% is a greater increase than 101% to 102%. So the more hit you have the less stacking it will help.



Can someone please clear out cobwebs and form some sort of equation or make an enlightened post that doesn't feel like so many people talking at once.

 

Roywyn

DPS = (base_damage + spell_damage*spell_coefficient) * (83% + hit%) * (1 + crit%*crit_bonus) * ((1 + haste%)/talented_cast_time) * (95% if not frost)

(83% + hit%) is capped at 99%.
crit% is capped at 100%, duh.
((1 + haste%)/talented_cast_time) is the inverse of the actual cast time, and is capped at 1/1.5s, the global cooldown.
(95% if not frost) are the partial resists vs. level 73 mobs.

Hit, crit, haste, damage all are linear.
That means going from 50 to 100 rating nets you the same absolute damage increase as going from 100 to 150 (unless you hit a cap) if all other stats stay the same.
That also means that the percentage increase from 50 to 100 is a bit larger than the one from 100 to 150, because the absulute increase is the same but the base damage is now higher to begin with.