Kavan

You never really have to go to cycles on Archimonde. Besides decursing and running around you should always have enough mana to just AB spam when you get a chance to dps.

 

Olecya

I made some calcultation using the mage dps calculator and below are what I got.
Note: The calculation is made for 10/48/3 spec, 300crit rating, 1100dmg and topped hit = 164. Which +dmg = 1500(flasks, buffs and maybe trinkets) results will be almost the same, except haste will be increased a bit.

1% crit(21 rating) increases your dps by 10.
+20 spell damage increases your dps by 14.
1% haste(17,6 rating) increase your dps by 15. Up to 16-17 with good gear and buffs.

I think fire mages already got enough crit from their talents, so the best choice will be haste > dmg gear.

So, +12 dmg gem will give you 8,4dps increase. +10 hasteR gem will give you 8,52dps increase. While +10 critR gem only 4,76.


Also, a got 2 question. Maybe anyone is able to answer on it?

1. Since we are raiding with elem shaman in the group almost all time, I'm thinking about reducing hit. Without buffs we need 164 hit rating but shaman draenei aura gives 1% hit and its totem +3% hit, thus I can reduce my hit to 120 rating. So, is it worth to reduce my hit to 120? The only I need is to be in range with totem and shaman to get this buff. I hope this will not be so hard at Hyjal, BT and Sunwell. If you had some problem with being in range at some bosses, please mention it here.

2. Anyone can recommend a good addon with focus window? I would like it for some mobs and bosses to see their casts and interupt them in time. I used Perl before but it reduces my preformance too much.

 

Afabar

You should (have to) wait for all your cooldown and ask the 2nd heroism for the execute range.

It should look like that :
MF minus 1 GCD: drums
MF range : Heroism/flamecap/destro/icon/comb/IV

 

Intoxify

Noobish question, but what's the general "margin" for replacement in terms of crit versus damage/hit? One of the replacements I'm considering will cost me a little over 1% crit, and I'm already crit-lite at the moment. (28.94% crit due to recent gear replacements.) However, it will keep me hit capped and gain me ~15 +damage; I'm sitting at 1129 right now.

I know the general rank in terms of how valuable a stat is to a mage is hit > haste > damage > crit, but what is the margin where a replacement would make the stat loss too costly? Is losing 1% crit worth the 15-20 +damage increase?

I should note that with this replacement, depending on group setup, I would also be able to swap out some +hit gear for +haste.



So... help?

 

Tyfon

The best way to address these (and more complex) problems is to plug the different gear combinations into a simulator like Rawr or http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t10907-v...s_spreadsheet/ and see what the end DPS is. Or you could get the DrDamage mod and just swap the gear in game.

 

Maple

Our guild has been given the elemental shaman and shadow priest to mages and restore shaman to warlocks. Recently, our warlocks made an argument that mages should get restore shaman instead. I dont have the expertise in TC to make an objective argument, would love to get some help in here. thanks

Here is his post:

I'd like to first show what the impact on the mages would be. I've made a few reasonable (I hope) assumptions. The test case here is for a fire mage with 5/5 ignite and 3/3 master of elements. I see two effects on mage dps from switching to a resto shaman from an elemental shaman - first, a dps loss due to decreased crit chance and second, a dps gain due to increased mana regeneration. Calculations below show that the fire mage actually gains dps because of the extra mana regen from mana tide totem allowing more fireballs to be cast during a 10 minute encounter despite a loss of dps from fewer fireball crits and consequently less damage from ignite. So it looks like this is a good thing for the mages.

Calculations:

Mage w/ resto shaman

master of elements mana regen
30% base mana cost per crit
fireball base mana cost - 465, refund 140 mana per crit
100 casts -> totem of wrath ~ 3 extra crits -> 420 mana per 100 casts
100 casts -> 300 sec -> 7 mp5
assume avg fireball @ 3k damage - crit damage 4.5k + ignite (0.4*4.5) 1.8k -> 3.3k damage due to crit
3 less crits per 100 casts -> 9900 / 300 -> 33 dps loss

mana tide totem mana regen
24% total mana returned per 5 min CD
assume 12k mana pool -> 2880 mana /300 sec -> 48 mp5

mana spring totem talented additional regen
20 mp5 + 25% 5/5 restorative totems -> 5 mp5

total mana regen difference b/t elemental & resto shaman
-7 + 48 + 5 = 46 mp5
for a 10 minute encounter -> 600 sec / 5 sec * 46 mp5 = 5520 mana
5520 mana / 465 mana per fireball = 11.9 extra fireballs over 10 minutes
assuming avg fireball @ 3k damage -> 59 dps increase

Net change in dps -> -33 + 59 = 26 dps gain with resto over ele shaman

Warlocks w/o Resto Shaman

mana tide totem mana regen
24% total mana returned per 5 min CD
assume 10k mana pool -> 2400 mana /300 sec -> 40 mp5 lost

mana spring totem untalented lost regen
20 mp5 + 25% 5/5 restorative totems -> 5 mp5 lost

for a 10 minute encounter -> 600 sec / 5 sec * 45 mp5 = 5400 mana lost
5400 mana = 3 lifetaps @ 1800 mana / tap -> 4.5 sec lost SB casting time from GCD on lifetap
4.5 sec / 2.5 sec/cast = 1.8 lost SB casts
@ 3k / SB -> 5400 damage lost -> 9 dps decrease

3% to crit for 3k avg SB -> 1.5k (non-ruin) xtra per crit
100 casts @ 3% additional crit -> 4.5k damage in 250 sec (2.5 sec cast per SB)
4.5 / 250 = 18 dps increase from crit for pure SB spam -> ~9 dps increase for locks w/o ruin casting SB 50% of the time, ~33 dps increase for locks w/ ruin casting SB 90% of the time

 

◊ manly

Out of every possible arguments, you named possibly the ones that have the least impact.

Heres a more proper version of it:

-> A mage gains 0 DPS from a resto shaman (assuming fire spec here). The reason is simple. We cannot use extraneous mana. At all. More mana does not equal more DPS under any kind of normal case. However, warlocks gain dps from more mana by virtue of doing less lifetap.

-> A destruction warlock crit multiplier is 200%. A fire mage crit multiplier is 210%. This means, in other words, that ISB aside, fire mages gain in fact more from the crit than warlocks do. Additionally, concerning ISB. ISB does not 'scale' all that well past 2 warlocks. Once you get 3+ warlocks you pretty much have almost the exact same ISB uptime as if you had 2 warlocks. This math has been done over and over. As such, Given the case where you would want to argue that more crit -> more ISB uptime, I will call BS on that, given that it will increase ISB uptime, but by infinitely small amounts.

The only reason I could see giving an elemental shaman to warlocks over mages is the hit rating, which is slightly harder to cap for destruction warlocks. That is about it.

If you have arcane mages, then yes, you want a resto shaman because you have a piss poor crit multiplier (175% for arcane spells) as well as no use for hit rating.

EDIT: seriously, when the TC begins with 'lets use a 10min fight for example' something is wrong. Its easy to bend numbers out of shape. Taking one case as an example is good for the sake of argumentation, but then using that one example case and make a wide sweeping generalisation out of it is a very questionable approach. This kind of distorted logic does not work in like any context that I am aware of. You want to prove that resto shaman should go to mage and elemental shaman to destro locks on a 10min of chain-casting fight ? Sure, blow your brains out on the math. But please don't conclude that this is how it goes for the majority of fights. To the best of my memory, I have not once ran out of mana in any TBC fight besides ROS with a spriest and an elemental shaman.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Intoxify

I wouldn't have asked unless I had already attempting to gauge the DPS and DPMana via the spreadsheets. Problem is that they are still incomplete regarding the new 2.4 gear, which is making it virtually impossible for me to figure out since I don't know how to add gear to either one. DrDamage also won't work because the gloves I'm speculating about have yet to drop for me, and would then need to be gemmed and enchanted.

I'm just curious if there's a safe margin of when yes, you should do an upgrade, versus "No, you lose too much crit to make it worth it."

 

arch

Short trinket question

I'm using Hex Shrunken, but Skull of gul'dan refuses to drop thus I'm forced to use either Quag or Icon in my second slot. Which is better? About every spreadsheet/calculator have a different answer. I'm guessing it depends on haste and fight duration?

 

Finkum

It's moderately easy to edit Vontre's sheet - there is a tab for each slot which then lists each item name and its stats. The only semi-complicated part is the socket bonus which is rather cryptic, but what I did was just search for older items with the same bonus and then yoink the value from that field (for example, T4 mage chest has the same socket bonus as the new Sunfire robe). I tried appending entries at the end of each list but the Gear selector doesn't pick them up, so in the end I just overwrote existing entries (there is undoubtedly a way to tell it that the item list has gotten longer, but I'm an Excel noob).

 

Dustwhisper

Isn't that a bit presumptous or are you assuming everyone has full T6 with 11k manapools? Personally I run OOM in quite a lot of fights with SP, popping gems and manapotions and evoc. Maybe our raid dps is just to low so the fights drag on :P But if I didnt have to pop mana gems and pots I could be using flamecaps and destro pots instead...

 

Pintofbrew

No it is not, by a long shot. You do not need T6 and you deffinitely don't need 11k Mana to not run OOM on full fire with an SP and Eshaman. T6 is laregely irrelevant to mana regen unless you insinuate a T6 has vastly higher crit rate, or the 2/8 bonus and higher int pool somehow enough to make that much difference, which it isn't. If you're running out you're either using Fireblast too much (By this I don't suggest you're necessarily using it as a rotation, you may be using it as an opener to a relocation move, eg. blast while jumping our of Rain of Fire or Death and Decay) or you're not getting a BoW. BoW, Manaspring from an Eshaman and a competent SP (>900dps) should be plenty to sustain any kind of fire spec. Under normal circumstances you should never Evocate.

The only thing I can think of that can otherwise negatively impact your mana is a dramatically low crit rate and/or a very high haste rate.

Edit: Either way it's irrelevant. If you do have a choice in shamans you should always give the ele to the firemages. Locks gain less from a Resto shaman than an Ele one (I seem to recall from trolling the lock thread) but the difference is better than the equivalent firemage loss. Arguably, the only mage who would prefer a resto to an ele shaman is an arcane one, due to the smallest crit size, complete inability to capitalize on the +hit, and obviously, massive mana drain.

Don't forget certain ele shamans pre T6 will be brandishing +121 spell damage totems rather than +101 ones.

 

cryek

[edit] err beaten to the punch[/edit]

I can't help but add that if you're really using every mana CD as soon as possible and still running out of mana, there's probably something seriously gimping your shadow priest.

 

Castia

My guild just spent our first night on Brut last night.

I've studied the top ranked WWS kills and I don't see anyone having to use Invisibility. I also see people popping cooldowns directly after 5 scorches have been applied, but when I tried this I pull aggro right before the first tank taunt.

Another attempt, one of our mages pulled aggro at 10% and was equal damage with me so I'm sure I was close too... which tells me that the other half of the execute range I would have definitely pulled if we made it that far.

So my question is, is it the tanks fault? Not enough TPS?
Are you guys able to actually go fully "ALL OUT"?
Do you ever have to stop?
Do you use any tricks to maximize your tanks TPS?
Are certain tanks better for it than others considering all the rage they get?
How much do you trust the new Omen?

Midyit drop ur gild

 

ascpek

Hi.

Got some questions about the Brutallus fight.

Right now i am specced 2 48 11 for best dps.

After a few attempts on Brutallus yesterday it felt kinda impossible to go through that fight with enough mana.

in my group we have :
3x fire mages
1x elemental shaman
1x warlock

we used to have a SP in our group to keep our mana up, but as it is now we dont have a SP.

In our raid setup we have a ret paladin which gives us abit more mana.

In our guild the mages are a bit undergeared, myself got only 3 piece t6 so dont have the bonus yet.

Even when using mana pots and gems, it seemed like i was going oom around 30-40% of the fight when using all my cd etc. I am a troll so i got berserk + icyvein + the haste from skull of guldan on this fight. But i mean the more haste i get the more oom i will get.

So is it possible for a mage to do good dmg on this fight for the 6min it should take without a SP? from my experience yesterday with the cd i have and and the specc this isnt possible?

would appriciate some feedbacks how to go along this fight for a mage gruop with no SP.

thx / ascpek

 

Footspeedy

If your having mana problems with Brutallis there's a couple options if you don't have a shadow priest, one thing to note though is that JoW will have a huge impact on your dps, I know that for our first kill and for a lot of lowball attempts we had JoW kept getting pushed off, so make sure it stays on.

Anyway the main options for you are (in no particular order):

1) Steal a Resto Shaman for Tide
2) Get a Innervate
3) Use Serpent Coil
4) Respec 10/48/3
5) Move the shadow priest around in groups(if you have one)
6) Mage Armor
7) Spellsurge with caster weapon swap(kinda shitty option but hey it's something)

-Castia-

One thing we noticed when pulling Brut is that his model is Ginormous and the way we had soakers set up (directly behind/beside the tank) caster dps was in melee range giving them a 110% threat threshold instead of the 130% ranged one, after we noticed this we just shoved all the healers up front and all the casters as far back as possible (prior to slash being changed), just make sure your out of Brut's melee range and it shouldn't be a issue if you have compotent tanks. If this wasn't the issue I would recommend picking up the 2% Sub to cloak enchant if you don't already have it as it is a nontrivial threat decrease.

Answers to your Questions specifically -
So my question is, is it the tanks fault? Not enough TPS?
If you are out of Melee Range Yes, If not No.
Are you guys able to actually go fully "ALL OUT"?
I can't possibly go more "all out" on this fight.
Do you ever have to stop?
No
Do you use any tricks to maximize your tanks TPS?
No tanks should be doing fine on TPS with how hard Brut hits.
Are certain tanks better for it than others considering all the rage they get?
Not specifically (don't quote me on this)
How much do you trust the new Omen?
I Don't even look at Omen on this fight, If I'm out of melee range I have absolutely 100% trust in our tanks that they are able to keep above me on threat with the amount of Rage Brut gives them.

 

◊ manly

You could also go 18/40/3 if you feel particularly sadomasochistic. Not that I would recommend the move. Or just get a shadow priest.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Castia

Yeah I'm definitely +30% threat capped, I'm in the very back of my soak group. Thanks for the feedback though.

EDIT:
I'm not a tanking expert, but if I'm correct, a Warrior has to balance TPS with Survivability. "Do I shield block or shield/bash/devastate/heroic strike"

And the harder/faster they get hit, the more threat they have to do do those things, obviously..

So.. is a druid better? They just spam a couple things over and over for threat gen and let their armor do most of the "tanking" instead of blocking with shields?

Or if you had both, would a druid be a better first tank or doesn't it matter due to the rate of rage generation a warrior gets anyways?

Midyit drop ur gild

 

◊ manly

Your tanks are doing something very wrong. This is the only logical conclusion.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Footspeedy

Honestly I think that manly is right and your tanks are just "missing" something. I really think its irrelevant as to which class tanks. We've personally done it with 2 Different Warriors opening on threat and both of them were able to comfortably get ahead of the mages.

 

Zwink

I've done Brutallus every week without a Shadow Priest and will likely to continue to do so. In my experience Warlocks get more benefit from a Shadow Priest than Mages do with our raid setup. You should definitely be able to last without JoW, a Resto Shaman, or a Shadow Priest if you use Mage Armor, chain Mana Potion/Gem, and use Evocation (you may not even have to use the whole thing).

In my case I have a Resto Shaman and JoW on the boss. This allows me to use 2 Flame Caps and 1 Destruction Potion, but requires me to use 1 Mana Gem (there is no down side to this because 3 Flame Caps can not be used on this fight - Flame Cap is used on the pull, Gem is used at 3 minutes, and second Flame Cap is used at 5 minutes) and 2 Mana Potions (both used asap to allow for Destruction Potion sub 20%). I also used 3 ticks of Evocation, but could have likely gotten away with 1. Here's a WWS from our kill 2 days ago Wow Web Stats.

http://vodka-guild.com

 

Castia

Here is our tank, Momokan, on one of our best attempts where a mage pulled aggro at 10%:
Momokan - WWS

Compared to Yeknoh of Exodus
Yeknoh - WWS

And Pachwa of Elitist Jerks
Pachwa - WWS

The only glaring differences I see are:
No thorns on Momokan (-3.3% theat?)
75 white swings compared to 106 and 117 respectively.. does this lead one to believe Momo was without windfury for a significant portion of the fight?

EDIT:
Just noticed another difference, I've been told Lifebloom increases threat of the person it is healing.

Momokan Lifebloom Healing: 6500
Yeknoh: 8900
Pachwa: 29000!

That seems pretty significant to me as well.

Midyit drop ur gild

 

hypetech

Moko only got one WF proc that attempt:

Momokan - WWS

Pachwa had 36 in the attempt you linked:

Pachwa - WWS

 

Inoko

[Edit: Beaten to it!]

 

Castia

Ah hell.. he had a shaman! Time to get rowdy! Thanks!

Does lifebloom really add threat to the target though? Every bit will help.

Midyit drop ur gild