We got our first brut kill tonight, and sadly I was the only mage in the raid, which isn't a normal thing. My guild has a lot of respect for our members and it's not super uncommon to get 3 mages in a raid. I guess I'm trying to gauge myself. I was in an almost perfect group, minus a spriest which is something of a rarity. My group was an elemental shaman, moonkin druid, and 2 warlocks.
I feel like I be doing better, but maybe i'm just at the limit of what my gear can do atm.
Is haste always better to take than damage? I have 1100 damage / 130 haste and have been buying the +haste/dmg pyrestones, but a guild mate told me I should just be getting damage gems until I have ~1250 dmg in which case haste would "become better" for me.
No, haste is not always better to take than spell damage. The more haste you get, the better spell damage becomes. And while I don't have any math to back this up, just rawr's results, at around 1200 spell damage, 220 spell haste is the breaking point, where they're both equal in value on gems. More or less.
My own opinion is haste/damage is better for yellow sockets and pure damage is better for red sockets. For the sake of simplicity I equate 1 spell haste as = 1 spell damage.
I use something like 5 spell haste = 6 spell damage and just go crazy with gemming. :-)
As for the pieces I use blue gems on, I'd use the pieces with the biggest socket bonus. In my case, legs and chest.
Originally Posted by Sleepingspud
My group was an elemental shaman, moonkin druid, and 2 warlocks.
Shadow priesets are quite a big DPS improvement.
I feel like I be doing better, but maybe i'm just at the limit of what my gear can do atm.
Off the top of my head, socket to get hit capped and scorch less. Also, I see that at least your first HSH wasn't stacked with combustion, you should use combustion with that, rather than skull or separately.
I'm surprised your Ele shaman and Moonkin can survive without an SP to start with.
An SP at this current state of raiding is a sine-qua-non. Without one, no matter how much regen you stack, you'll have to do some form of mana regen. Less or more, depending on scenario. With one, you pretty much need zero other regen at all.
Having said that, +8% crit is a non-trivial increase in mana regain via ele. pre. It may only be a ~2.4% gain but that's still almost as much economy as Elemental Precision.
Assuming his ele shammy was present for the entire duration (with Totem of Wrath) then reitemizing to reach the hit cap wouldn't have increased his dps on this parse. (though it might still be justified) If anything it would have decreased his damage in this particular situation.
Switching from [Blade of Twisted Visions] to [Wub's Cursed Hexblade] (assuming you have it) would be one way to reach the hit cap easily (without spending a lot of resources (your guilds or your own) on epic gems to replace existing epic gems) - but the true min/max is probably to regem & keep your current weapon.
Originally Posted by gcbirzan
and scorch less.
17 scorches for a 6min + fight seems pretty close to optimal.
5 to ramp, then one every 30 sec (11, assuming he started doing his first scorching (& scorched right on the line) within 3 seconds of engaging the boss) => 16 or 17 scorches.
Well, cooldown stacking always depends on a number of factors. First, your gear choice (ie: SCB trinket or not, lots of haste gear etc.), then group comp (for mana regen planning), then a bunch of other factors, such as crit rate affecting your mana returns which might affect your rotations as you go. An absolute perfect execution should look close to this:
1- stack 5 scorch
[...]
2- drums of battle
3- wait for the annoying drums of battle GCD
3- flame cap, skull of gul'dan, icy veins, destruction potion
[~17-18 seconds]
4- combustion (ie: pre-cast combustion)
5- fireball (number of fireball debatable and depending upon crit rate, usually 1 or 2 fireballs)
6- fireball
7- mojo madness
[2 min]
8- drums of battle
9- wait for stupid gcd
10- skull of gul'dan, destruction potion
11- mojo madness
<get an innervate somewhere here>
[5min in the fight]
12- flame cap
[19% minus 1.5 second]
12- drums of battle
13- GCD
[at 19%]
14- bloodlust
15- skull of gul'dan, icy veins, destruction potion
[~17-18 seconds]
16- combustion (ie: pre-cast combustion)
17- fireball (number of fireball debatable and depending upon crit rate, usually 1 or 2 fireballs)
18- fireball
19- mojo madness
[at sub 1% (this is very situational and a judgement call, depends on your current ignite)]
20- scorch
21- fireblast
22- scorch spam
------
Theres a few numbers that can be played around depending on a number of factors. The innervate is just to avoid you using that mana gem, but you can live without it. What I would recommend is probably flamecap directly on the pull, managem, then flamecap at 5min, and use a mana potion instead of destro pot at 2min (basically, don't stack any dps consumables on the 2nd set of cooldowns). Normally the timing of bloodlust is much more involved/precise than that, but given the length of the fight its not worth bothering. Also, cooldown stacking varies if you use SCB, since you dont flame cap and use mana gems everytime. It also means you stack combustion with the rest, not 'outside' of everything else.
--
Note that I did not mention berserking anywhere. This is because its a judgment call. If you can do it after a meteor, then its more haste. The numbers listed above are not absolute, there some variance on how you time your cooldowns -- you could 'wait for your procs' up to some leniance, because your last set of cooldowns are stacked on the last minute. That means you have ~1min of wiggle room. 'Berserking' is roughly a 'proc' in the sense it can be better in some cases if you can wait for it. I haven't given it much thought given I'm not a troll, but thats what my gut feeling would play with it.
--
Manly, you posted this Brutallus Spell timing list for cooldown usage purposes a while back. Would you mind revising your list assuming the following armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Notes:
- 1st trinket is usually Darkmoon Card: Crusade and 2nd is HSH
- Troll for Berserking
- 196 Haste
- No Skull of Gul'dan
- Does not have LW as a profession
- 2/48/11 or 0/40/21 whichever
- Assuming a 1400-1500dps Shadow priest and either boomkin/ele s.
- possibly a 2nd BL
--
Manly, you posted this Brutallus Spell timing list for cooldown usage purposes a while back. Would you mind revising your list assuming the following armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Notes:
- 1st trinket is usually Darkmoon Card: Crusade and 2nd is HSH
- Troll for Berserking
- 196 Haste
- No Skull of Gul'dan
- Does not have LW as a profession
- 2/48/11 or 0/40/21 whichever
- Assuming a 1400-1500dps Shadow priest and either boomkin/ele s.
- possibly a 2nd BL
I'm not sure I get your question, the tricky part about cooldown stacking is managing haste buffs with non haste buffs. Also, the drums GCD. In other words, you always want to get > 20s out of spellhaste buffs, which means you might want to scorch at no penalty cost (depending on haste, lag). For damage cooldowns, the exact reverse happens. You want to get the most out of 20s of hex shrunken head (ie: <= ]20s). This, again, means that you might want to consider scorching depending on haste/lag, and even maybe fireblast to get > 20s out of 20s.
But again, in your case, since you dont have drums or skull of guldan, theres like nothing special to manage. Try to hold off stuff to stack with the 3rd meteor/berserking, unless the 2nd meteor gives the same berserking# than the 3rd, in which case you should do at the 2nd so that you get 100% pushback prevention on the 3rd meteor. The only other thing to watch more carefully is flame cap. Other than that, I don't see your point in asking. The tricky part only applies when you have leatherworking and skull of guldan (or shifting naaru sliver).
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Assuming his ele shammy was present for the entire duration (with Totem of Wrath) then reitemizing to reach the hit cap wouldn't have increased his dps on this parse. (though it might still be justified) If anything it would have decreased his damage in this particular situation.
Fair point, but I would still aim for the hit cap.
17 scorches for a 6min + fight seems pretty close to optimal.
5 to ramp, then one every 30 sec (11, assuming he started doing his first scorching (& scorched right on the line) within 3 seconds of engaging the boss) => 16 or 17 scorches.
It's not 17 scorches, it's 17 hits + 14 crits.
Looking at that more, I notice a few more things. First, always use your Hex Shrunken Head during bloodlust/drums, with combustion and icy veins. Combustion is wasted on Skull of Gul'dan and if you don't use any +spell trinkets/consumables, you don't get any benefit from stacking icy veins, Skull and berserking. So, I'd say go with using the Head, combustion, icy veins and berserking (does it stack with icy veins?) and then the Skull. Also, you should use your racial after the 3rd meteor slash, so you get the most out of it.
Secondly, you need to mash your fireball button faster, you have a lot of pauses between your fireballs. Comparing your parse with my guild's latest kill, I didn't have a shaman (no bloodlust), I don't have the skull and I'm an undead (no berserking) and I cast 128 fireballs and 15 scorches, compared to your 104 fireballs and 31 scorches.
Berserking stacks with everything to my knowledge. And GCB is right, combining haste effects has zero net effect on it's own. One BL and one Skull used in series is exactly the same as them used overlapping. The only reason we combine as many of them as possible is because they amplify any +spell effect that's combined with them. This has been proven to be Destropot+Flamecap with Skull and IV, with a later Hex and Combustion while flamecap is still up.
Combustion only technically "stacks" with +spell. Synergizes is more the correct term, but either way, you Combust with the highest +spell combo. Which is the latter. This has the added benefit of not delaying subsequent CD stacks of anything except Hex, when Comb delays at cooling due to it's retarded CD.
Delaying Hex a few seconds will (1) not affect Flamecap, as you'll have enough time on it left anyway (2) not particularly impact the effect of Hex. At least, impact it much less than any other combo.
That's not entirely true. Stacking haste cooldowns vs unstacking them can be either a net gain or a net loss (or rather, sometimes unstacking is good). The fact remains that haste cooldowns act in a step-like fashion, as such, results can vary a lot either way. I'll edit this later to give an example.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Hellfire-Encased Pendant
Binds when picked up
Unique
NeckMiscellaneous
+17 Intellect
+12 Spirit
+16 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases damage done by Fire spells and effects by up to 51.
Equip: Improves spell critical strike rating by 24.
and
Loop of Cursed Bones
Binds when picked up
NeckMiscellaneous
+19 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 32.
Equip: Improves spell haste rating by 27.
And cannot choose the best. Theorically for a 2/48/11. Which one should be the best?
If I read what is said previously, if 1haste = 1sp the Hellfire-Encased Pendant should be better
Another thing, is the maxdps.com website is a trusting web?
Thank you in advnce for you input
Last edited by ogotaï : 06/18/08 at 5:46 AM.
Reason: add stuff
Maxdps.com, just like all other simulators, is only as good as the assumptions they make. A little something a professor of engineering once told me:
"Mathematical Modelling (that is, simulations to you and me) is like masturbation. At first, you try it, and it's quite good. But when you confuse it for the real thing, the troubles start."
Having said that, if you are going to use a simulator, it'll be much more accurate if you go for the complex, cross-checking, adaptable, tweakable, and constantly updated Rawr.mage rather than maxdps.com, which is from "OK" to "Shit" depending on what you're modelling and how much accuracy you want.
For some time now I have been raiding as a 40/0/21 build with the 4pcT5 in the shoulders, legs, hands, and helm slots. I now have access to all of T6 and was looking at upgrading at least 2 pieces but finding it very difficult to move from the set bonus. Using Rawr I have been unable to find a set of conditions in which the upgrade, ie new legs and gloves, is better then the set bonus.
I know that the set bonus is very good for arcane but is it really best in slot? Or, am I not using Rawr correctly?
For some time now I have been raiding as a 40/0/21 build with the 4pcT5 in the shoulders, legs, hands, and helm slots. I now have access to all of T6 and was looking at upgrading at least 2 pieces but finding it very difficult to move from the set bonus. Using Rawr I have been unable to find a set of conditions in which the upgrade, ie new legs and gloves, is better then the set bonus.
I know that the set bonus is very good for arcane but is it really best in slot? Or, am I not using Rawr correctly?
Did you enchant the new T6 pieces? I would think the gloves, robe, and helm are direct upgrades, and if you can get the bracers to complete your 4pT6 would be the ideal set up.
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. - Plato
Did you enchant the new T6 pieces? I would think the gloves, robe, and helm are direct upgrades, and if you can get the bracers to complete your 4pT6 would be the ideal set up.
I recently picked up LoCE and thought this coupled with the T6 gloves would be enough to break the set but every combination of variables that I can think of Rawr still shows the 4pcT5 set as better. While modifying the variables will change the relative distance between the set item and another item the set still comes out better.
As a side note to this, is there a way to look directly at how much up time Rawr is giving the 4pcT5?
A quick question, is (imp) blizzard a good idea on hyjal trash? Frankly I'm uncertain, everyone seems to trash it before it even gets a chance to be considered, but the dmg seems better than you might expect (as a frost spec at least).
For reference, in my gear blizard does about 3k dmg in 7.28 seconds which is 412 dps and 2.2 dpm.
In the same gear, AE does on average 700 dmg in 1.37 seconds which is 510 dps and 1.3 dpm.
So, especially with regards to having a bit of haste, blizzard seems to do much better than you might think at first glance. Still, blizzard does 20% less dmg than AE, so I guess the simple answer is, AE if you have the mana; otherwise blizzard. So for hyjal I'd suggest imp blizzard is a good idea? Interestingly, AE spam uses twice the mana/second that blizzard does.
So, why do people dismiss blizzard as a method of aoe in raids?
(ps. If this has been brought up before I apologize, searching for "blizzard" didn't work very well!)
A quick question, is (imp) blizzard a good idea on hyjal trash? Frankly I'm uncertain, everyone seems to trash it before it even gets a chance to be considered, but the dmg seems better than you might expect (as a frost spec at least).
For reference, in my gear blizard does about 3k dmg in 7.28 seconds which is 412 dps and 2.2 dpm.
In the same gear, AE does on average 700 dmg in 1.37 seconds which is 510 dps and 1.3 dpm.
So, especially with regards to having a bit of haste, blizzard seems to do much better than you might think at first glance. Still, blizzard does 20% less dmg than AE, so I guess the simple answer is, AE if you have the mana; otherwise blizzard. So for hyjal I'd suggest imp blizzard is a good idea? Interestingly, AE spam uses twice the mana/second that blizzard does.
So, why do people dismiss blizzard as a method of aoe in raids?
(ps. If this has been brought up before I apologize, searching for "blizzard" didn't work very well!)
Imp. Blizzard can be good if you have people pulling aggro off of the tanks a lot. It gives the tanks extra time to snag the sneaky bastard. If you don't have aggro problems, though, then there's no reason for it unless you're spec'd frost. In which case Blizzard (being that it cannot crit) is just there to get up a frostbite and then watch it get eaten by someone else critting the mob.
In short, if you're quick and can ice lance before the frostbite breaks, it can be useful for frost mages. If you see aggro pulls a lot (More than once per wave, once every wave, etc.), one or two points can make tanks love you.
Anything else just makes it a waste of points better spent elsewhere.
Anyone could provide me a macro for activating Skull and Icy Veins with one modifier button while activating Hex Shrunken Head and Combustion on another modifier? I'm currently using this :
#showtooltip Fireball
/cast [mod:ctrl] Combustion
/cast [mod:ctrl] Icy Veins
/use [mod:ctrl] Hex Shrunken Head
/use [mod:ctrl] Icon of the Silver Crescent
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/cast Fireball
That what you're after? If you can compose a macro with /script UIErrorsFrame:Clear() I don't see why you can't make one with two possible modifiers yourself, so either I didn't get what you wanted clearly or you got that macro off a site, don't know how to make a macro and probably actually want what I just typed.
I recently picked up LoCE and thought this coupled with the T6 gloves would be enough to break the set but every combination of variables that I can think of Rawr still shows the 4pcT5 set as better. While modifying the variables will change the relative distance between the set item and another item the set still comes out better.
As a side note to this, is there a way to look directly at how much up time Rawr is giving the 4pcT5?
I have found this too... I was messing with rawr one night trying to get a perfect illidan on farm status gear set for arcane, the 4pct5 lasts for a very long time. I found the best sets were t6 gloves and 4pct5, and then replacing the helm with t6, and leggings with channeled elements yielded 2 dps higher than sticking with the 4pc... it really surprises me how long t5 lasts...
The only real reason it seems to replace it would be to get your 2pc t6 for fights when you need the extra tic of evok, that seems to be what tips it over, its not individual peice its really that set bonus plus the sheer stats overpowering the t5 bonus.
Also, I know its all only theory and what not, and that sims really don't stand up to the real thing, but I honestly can not find a single gear-set for PRE-SWP for fire, that puts out more than the arcane gear set I found at 2367 dps... =\
Current standard party is: Elemental Shaman / SP / Mage / Mage / Mage, I normally gobble 1 innervate(sometimes more, but I set it to 1) I have been fluctuating the time between 300 and 800 seconds just to see different numbers, but cant really find fire to really be good enough until SWP... Is that what most people have been finding?
Last edited by SomeoneRandom : 06/23/08 at 6:51 AM.
800 is totally unrealistic. That's 13 minutes. That's verging on "insane". Even so, there is no fight that lasts that long where actual stand-still-and-spam is required. Fights that last over 5m are generally technical and/or phase-governed so simming them based on stand-and-spam is misleading.
T6 non-swp fire should cap out around 2270ish on rawr. With CoE, naturally, and an E-shaman as you stated. Having said that, I absolutely can't make anything more than 2210dps from arcane-AM and 2330 with 40/0/21. Either way, it's perfectly logical, to be honest.
I am wondering if going to a fire spec would be better for me at this point. I know i have 2pc T5 but i think the rate at which I OOM is hurting me in damage done. My DPS is pretty good, I sit at about 12-13k and on some fights 16-17k. The guild I am in is currently 3/9 BT and 4/5 Hyjal. We were doing Teron last night and i found myself OOMing extremely fast even with spriest in my group. My spell rotation was AB till about 60% mana then spam frost bolt till i could afford to spam AB. Here is a like to our WWS
I am wondering if going to a fire spec would be better for me at this point. I know i have 2pc T5 but i think the rate at which I OOM is hurting me in damage done. My DPS is pretty good, I sit at about 12-13k and on some fights 16-17k. The guild I am in is currently 3/9 BT and 4/5 Hyjal. We were doing Teron last night and i found myself OOMing extremely fast even with spriest in my group. My spell rotation was AB till about 60% mana then spam frost bolt till i could afford to spam AB. Here is a like to our WWS
Please pick me apart and help me try to figure out whats going on.
Taking only a quick look at your armory and WWS a few things stand out. The following are in no particular order.
I will make the presumption that your guild is doing the T4 to T6 jump without a full T5 clear. There is nothing wrong with this, just that things will work a little differently for you in terms of gear.
There are several neck pieces that are easy to get and are much better then what you have being scryer. Along that same vein the badge wand should serve much better then your current one. These are not the only easy upgrades for your gear but those stand out in a quick look. (Small rant, enchant your boots for boar’s speed)
You have gemmed for full damage with T5 gems. This may be great for other classes and builds but is not as useful for an arcane mage. You also have some stamina or damage/stamina gems that are horrible for this spec.
In general, you are close but not completely there to have the mana pool to really support a high AB up time. With a full re-gem you would see a large increase in AB uptime but that may be out of your badge budget range to get fully T6 gemmed.
Looking at the full WWS you used less gems and mana pots then the other two mages. This spec is very consumption heavy, as in the moment you can hit that CD and it won’t push you to the top then hit it. I would have to go back and look but on a full MH run I can go through 4 stacks of mana pots without much trouble.
There are several things to consider when going fire or arc that are dependent on your guild style and makeup. How the other DPS is doing, is CoE up consistently (irrelevant in next patch), can you regem for full effect, are there other fire mages for scorch duty, do you have kings, divine spirit, do you have a spriest, a shammy, etc.
A side note, could you explain how you were hitting a 17k mana pool?
we did a full T5 clear minus kael who we will be coming back to this week. Im thinking that the SP/Stam gems should be switched out to full int ones. As for badges, I am saving up for the scryer's blade of focus. Why do i want boars speed? There are a couple of us mages looking into going fire spec and we do have a dedicated warlock on CoE duty, a spriest, divine spirit, we sometimes have a ele shaman in our party but sometimes we dont. What kind of regem do i need to go fire spec? Also, I will be going for the shoulders of Kaz'rogal and the pants off kaz'rogal.
06/16/08, 3:18 AM
