Sweet Informational Thread - Page 12

Copernicus · 12/20/07, 11:39 AM

I keep thinking that Flamestrike spam gets much more intersting with [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight].

Then I get bored because by the time I got the trinket, we've already gotten through anything that's annoying with AoE with just Arcane Explosions and Blast Waves. I don't want to try to convince our tanks to bunch up more for Flamestrike spam if the DPS gain is relatively minor. But still, the math would be interesting.

If the proc from AToI is up 100% of the time, how much better DPS/target is flamestrike spam than AE spam (assuming a deep fire build)?

LiquidHAL · 12/20/07, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

If the proc from AToI is up 100% of the time, how much better DPS/target is flamestrike spam than AE spam (assuming a deep fire build)?

no haste

Dmg/Sec	AOE Spell/Rotation	Threat/Sec/Target
459.32	Arcane Explosion	459.32
437.22	Flamestrike (spammed)	393.50

145 haste

Dmg/Sec	AOE Spell/Rotation	Threat/Sec/Target
477.60	Flamestrike (spammed)	429.84
459.32	Arcane Explosion	459.32

Perchik · 12/20/07, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

Thus, for your stats, we get...

1+ damage: ∆E/E = 1/(620/.914+1100) = 5.62E-4
1 +hit: ∆E/E = 1/1262*1/.99 = 8E-4
1 +haste: ∆E/E = 1/1576*1/1 = 6.35E-4
1 +crit: ∆E/E = 1/2208*1/(1/1.09+.35) = 3.57E-4

I apologize for referencing a quote so far back in the thread, but I have a question about this calculation you're doing.

∆E/E = ∆d/(A/B+d)
∆E/E = ∆h/h
∆E/E = ∆s/(1+s)
∆E/E = ∆c/(1/C+c)

I kind of understand this, its been a looooong while since I did any sort of math. The +1 damage calculation I understand. But in the other calculations I think I'm missing something. Where does the "1/1262" in ∆h, the "1/1576" in ∆s, and "1/2208" in ∆c come from?

EDIT: Quoted from page 5 of this thread. 2nd edit for clarity in the question.

galzohar · 12/20/07, 1:37 PM

The thing is for pvp if you're not getting a crit string, it just means the target isn't dying and the fight continues until you get a crit string and it dies. This can generally happen with very low as well as higher crit chances but will happen earlier in the fight with higher crit. Granted the benefit from that is not all that great but it's definitely better than "the dps increase you'd get from X crit rating on a target with Y ressilience". Just like if a raid boss would have +1% crit it would be much much worse than if he had +1% dps.

Muphrid · 12/20/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Perchik

I apologize for referencing a quote so far back in the thread, but I have a question about this calculation you're doing.

∆E/E = ∆d/(A/B+d)
∆E/E = ∆h/h
∆E/E = ∆s/(1+s)
∆E/E = ∆c/(1/C+c)

I kind of understand this, its been a looooong while since I did any sort of math. The +1 damage calculation I understand. But in the other calculations I think I'm missing something. Where does the "1/1262" in ∆h, the "1/1576" in ∆s, and "1/2208" in ∆c come from?

EDIT: Quoted from page 5 of this thread. 2nd edit for clarity in the question.

The deltas all represent changes in their respective variables: +damage, hit chance, crit chance, haste. The latter three are not in terms of ratings in the given formulas--for this reason, a change of 1 rating has to be converted to its corresponding decimal change on the variable. 1 hit rating = +1/1262 chance to hit. 1 crit rating = 1/2208 chance to crit. 1 haste rating = 1/1576 casting speed (these are all rounded to four significant digits).

Originally Posted by greyberger

I think the relatively low cost of 1% hit was a necessary choice given the difficulty of capping out before the T6 level. Classes and specs that rely on the player collecting a fair amount of hit would have a lot of difficulty competing with those that didn't if the itemization value of hit were halved or reduced to 75% of what it is now. As it stands now it's unrealistic to expect mages to have more than 10% hit or so upon entering kara, and that 10% will likely include sub-optimal gear like the Scryer's Bloodgem or socketed hit rating. Even at a T5/ZA level reaching the hit cap without settling on lower item-level gear can be difficult... i imagine it was a balancing issue as much as anything else.

That's the kicker, though: who cares about hitting the cap? We emphasize hitting the cap because it is, 9 times out of 10, the most efficient gear path for increasing DPS, but that is only a result of the low cost/benefit ratio of hit. You have the causality backwards: just because there is a cap does not mean the cost should be lower than other stats. If hit were extremely expensive instead, we would not advocate bothering with hitting the cap and would instead suggest gearing with other stats, picking up hit where viable and good for DPS.

Cost/benefit is everything, and I have never seen compelling reasons to make the minimum cost/benefit ratio on items or with stats to be so interdependent on each other.

Originally Posted by galzohar

The thing is for pvp if you're not getting a crit string, it just means the target isn't dying and the fight continues until you get a crit string and it dies. This can generally happen with very low as well as higher crit chances but will happen earlier in the fight with higher crit. Granted the benefit from that is not all that great but it's definitely better than "the dps increase you'd get from X crit rating on a target with Y ressilience". Just like if a raid boss would have +1% crit it would be much much worse than if he had +1% dps.

You also have a one-fight mentality. I implore you to consider the result of many fights. Players with higher crit chances will, on average, have more fights where an early crit string decided it in their favor. But in comparison to players with lower crit chances but equal long-run damage output, they will also lose fights (due to a lack of crits) that the player with the lower crit but same output would have won. The same could be said of a boss scenario.

I have criticized the implementation of resilience precisely due to this argument: variation in fight outcomes is just that--variation. It has nothing to do with the means. Resilience does more than that, though: for two players who have the same long-run output, adding an equal amount of resilience to both sides tilts the battle in favor of the one who has the smaller crit chance or crit bonus (more precisely, the smaller contribution on overall DPS due to crits). This does not make sense.

• Arawethion · 12/20/07, 5:25 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

The deltas all represent changes in their respective variables: +damage, hit chance, crit chance, haste. The latter three are not in terms of ratings in the given formulas--for this reason, a change of 1 rating has to be converted to its corresponding decimal change on the variable. 1 hit rating = +1/1262 chance to hit. 1 crit rating = 1/2208 chance to crit. 1 haste rating = 1/1576 casting speed (these are all rounded to four significant digits).

That's the kicker, though: who cares about hitting the cap? We emphasize hitting the cap because it is, 9 times out of 10, the most efficient gear path for increasing DPS, but that is only a result of the low cost/benefit ratio of hit. You have the causality backwards: just because there is a cap does not mean the cost should be lower than other stats. If hit were extremely expensive instead, we would not advocate bothering with hitting the cap and would instead suggest gearing with other stats, picking up hit where viable and good for DPS.

Cost/benefit is everything, and I have never seen compelling reasons to make the minimum cost/benefit ratio on items or with stats to be so interdependent on each other.

For what it's worth, I threw the calculations into a spreadsheet here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18882-m...i-spreadsheet/

Muphrid · 12/20/07, 5:34 PM

If you wish, you can take advantage of the linearity of the DPS formula with respect to most stats and simply calculate the new E after adding +1 spell damage, +1 spell hit, etc. Subtract the old E for the change, divide that by E for the relative benefit. This works for everything but intellect, and even that does not change very quickly (it's only second-order and very slightly so).

galzohar · 12/20/07, 9:00 PM

Maybe you have a point about crit and pvp when you look at what would actually win you more fights. I suppose it requires more looking into, but at the end who cares as you have no real gear choices except gems which should be stam/resil at least in the blue/yellow sockets.

Sancus · 12/27/07, 7:42 AM

you have no real gear choices except gems which should be stam/resil at least in the blue/yellow sockets.

Actually, most high-rating pvp mages gem damage in most of their slots.

You can see this on Radikal and Affix, who is lucky enough to have managed to purchase all +12s.

Benegesserit · 12/27/07, 2:37 PM

Does Spell Penetration affect the heartbeat resist on sheep?

• mutagen · 12/27/07, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Benegesserit

Does Spell Penetration affect the heartbeat resist on sheep?

I don't think it does. Way back when Kara was something special and keeping a couple of Moroes guests shackled was a challenge for many priests I went out and shackled lvl70s over and over again with various combinations of spell hit, spell penetration and nothing and found that spell hit was the only thing that made a difference on the initial resists and the heartbeat breaks. I'd assume that Polymorph is the same, though the only sure way would be to go sheep something and wait for breaks enough times to be statistically significant, collecting data on different sets of gear. As a bonus you can derive the frequency of heartbeat resist/breaks, for Shackle it appears to be about 5 seconds.

◊ Vontre · 12/28/07, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sancus

Actually, most high-rating pvp mages gem damage in most of their slots.

You can see this on Radikal and Affix, who is lucky enough to have managed to purchase all +12s.

You can very clearly see in Raddy's armory that he is half and half for damage gems and resil/stam/damage hybrid gems. He used to use more damage gems because he was playing on a 4dps next to shadow priests and affliction warlocks.

Also Ecilam seems to highly favor stam/resilience. It mostly depends on team comp. If you're not on a 4 dps, I wouldn't recommend dropping under 400 resilience at minimum.

Pstar · 01/05/08, 9:43 AM

So, I'm a rogue, but I'm an officer in a guild working on Kael, and our mages need some help -- they're reasonably smart players, they've got the right gems/enchants and solid gear, but their DPS just isn't very good (except of course on solarian/morogrim). I have a few questions that I haven't really seen addressed here that might enable me to help them.

1) What are the best group buffs for a mage? We're starting to raid with a moonkin and an elemental shaman, so that will be nice, but the moonkin kind of needs a shadow priest and we have a destruction warlock who will also want to be in that group, so we'll have at most 1 ideal slot for a mage. For the spillover mages, what should we try to group them with? I'm thinking ele>moonkin>BM Hunter>shadowpriest. As far as raid debuffs go, we have a ret pally and enough locks for CoE (malediction lock usually drops shadows). Am I missing anything here?

2) What are some macros that mages can use to minimize the effect of lag and/or slow reflexes? I.e. how do you cast 3 to 8 fireballs in a row as seamlessly as possible.

2b) What would a macro to simultaneously use cooldowns look like? For example, I want to use a mana gem, icon of the silver crescent, and combustion at the same time. Apologies for the tecnical nature of the question if it's out of place here.

3) What are some popular add-ons that will help enhance mage dps? I'm especially interested in a debuff filter that will only show whether improved scorch and curse of elements is up on the boss.

Akron · 01/05/08, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Pstar

So, I'm a rogue, but I'm an officer in a guild working on Kael, and our mages need some help -- they're reasonably smart players, they've got the right gems/enchants and solid gear, but their DPS just isn't very good (except of course on solarian/morogrim). I have a few questions that I haven't really seen addressed here that might enable me to help them.

1) What are the best group buffs for a mage? We're starting to raid with a moonkin and an elemental shaman, so that will be nice, but the moonkin kind of needs a shadow priest and we have a destruction warlock who will also want to be in that group, so we'll have at most 1 ideal slot for a mage. For the spillover mages, what should we try to group them with? I'm thinking ele>moonkin>BM Hunter>shadowpriest. As far as raid debuffs go, we have a ret pally and enough locks for CoE (malediction lock usually drops shadows). Am I missing anything here?

2) What are some macros that mages can use to minimize the effect of lag and/or slow reflexes? I.e. how do you cast 3 to 8 fireballs in a row as seamlessly as possible.

2b) What would a macro to simultaneously use cooldowns look like? For example, I want to use a mana gem, icon of the silver crescent, and combustion at the same time. Apologies for the tecnical nature of the question if it's out of place here.

3) What are some popular add-ons that will help enhance mage dps? I'm especially interested in a debuff filter that will only show whether improved scorch and curse of elements is up on the boss.

1. Shadow Priest for a fire mage is going to make the biggest difference. With a good shadow priest, the mage can use Molten Armor (3% crit) and even use Flame Caps or Destruction Potions (or both) instead of Mana Gems & Mana Potions. Without, the mage will probably use Mage Armor and can't keep up his best dps rotation for a long time. An Elemental Shaman is the second best group buff if your mages are not hit-capped. 101 Spelldamage totem/threat totem and totem of wrath. However, if you're at Kael then they should be. A Resto Shaman is very powerful - 101 Spelldamage/threat totem and Mana Tide. The Moonkin Aura (5% crit) is pretty good but lacks the totems provided by the Shaman. Ferocious Inspiration from a BM Hunter amounts to 3% more damage, which makes it the less useful buff of them all. We usually put Hunters in physical damage groups anyway.

So anyway it goes this way: shadow priest > Ele shaman > resto shaman > Moonkin > BM hunter.

Destruction Warlocks gain a lot from these buffs too and they do extremely good damage. It's a significant loss of dps for them to Life Tap, however they do have that option. So in a scenario where you have to choose whether to put a Destro Lock or a Mage in the SP group, the mage should be given preference given that he can really carry his weight. A good Fire Mage, especially after 2.3.2, is pretty much in line with Destro Warlock, although I think the latter still has a slight advantage especially if Improved Shadow Bolt is up constantly.

2a. 2.3 has eliminated the usefulness of stopcasting macros. You just have to spam. On fights where you have to move, the mage can throw an instant like Fire Blast while moving.

2b. Such a macro is no technical feat. Just:

/use Mana Emerald
/use Icon of the Silver Crescent
/cast Combustion

Nothing special. Although such a macro wouldn't make sense in real play. You use Mana Emerald depending on your mana situation not necessarily in conjunction with other cooldowns. Combustion and Icon also have a different cooldown (3min/2min). If your mage uses two 2 min trinkets with "Use" effects it would be beneficial to use such a macro though.

3. Personally, I use Class Timers. However, the default UI since 2.3 tracks the timer on debuffs such as Improved Scorch now. All warlocks should have some sort of DoT timer to track their curses and other DoTs.

Vonwen · 01/05/08, 10:19 AM

1) The usual mage group is SP + resto shaman (or ele if you got one, but really resto does fine too) + 3 mages. The moonkin isn't necessary, the BM hunters are nice but well, there are only 5 spots in one group. The most important buffs for a mage are the SP and the shaman (heroism + spell dmg + regen), anything else is purely bonus.

2) There's no need for casting macros anymore, you just spam spam and spam ;p However they might want to use Quartz as a casting bar to optimize lag.

2b) I don't think you can unless you name the mana gem in the macro, something like this :

/cast Combustion
/stopcasting
/use 13
/stopcasting
/use Mana Emerald

The obvious issue is that a mage is using multiple gems with different names, and it would require (I think) a different macro for each one. The problem could be partially solved in the next patch with the emerald gem having 3 charges, but still, it's only 3. What I do is juste use the first part of the macro, and just click on it quickly to stack the buffs. Be aware that clicking your gem (with the serpentcoil braid) before using the trinket will activate a 15 seconds cooldown.

3) Basically Quartz for the lag display, you can use Demon for debuffs display, or just filter them in Pitbull (in auras, buffs/debuffs you can cast), but I wouldn't recommend that. And Quartz also shows the debuff timers, even though only for the mage that first applies it.

If they still do low dps, you may want to check their templates (ie having 1 fire and 2 frost isn't really optimal for debuff stacking), or check that the scorch debuff is kept up. Remember that a scorch every 5-6 fireballs is a good cycle, even if you could push up to 8. And tell them that it's a matter of every mage to keep the debuffs up, not only the one who applies it first.

Pstar · 01/05/08, 10:27 AM

To both replies so far:

1) Thanks much, this is helpful.

2a) Is there no way to spell queue? Sometimes they get pretty laggy and I don't have enough experience playing a caster to know how that would impact things...

b) we have mages with the trinket off of morogrim that gives +225 dmg when they use a mana gem. As a rogue I always find that stacking trinkets and cooldowns for periodic 15 second bursts of awesomeness is superior to using them each seperately.. i see what you're saying with the 2 vs 3 minute cooldown but you'll still be able to make them overlap at the 0 and 6 minute marks... Also, to solve the mana gems with different names, could you....
/use Mana Emerald
/use Mana Ruby
/use Mana Citrine
and it will use the best one available, and the rest will be on CD? great to know to use the icon first...

c) Consumables -- flame cap is a great idea, as are destruction potions if we can get them a SP -- we do have a ret pally to judge wisdom but that probably isn't enough by itself.

3) Demon looks like a great suggestion, tyvm

Praest · 01/05/08, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by Pstar

2a) Is there no way to spell queue? Sometimes they get pretty laggy and I don't have enough experience playing a caster to know how that would impact things...

No, that is impossible. But with Quartz, they will get a red line when their estimated lag means the server will get the next request at the right time, so using that improves it a lot. Or they could just mash the key, but that gets rather tiresome after a few minutes.

Originally Posted by Pstar

b) we have mages with the trinket off of morogrim that gives +225 dmg when they use a mana gem. As a rogue I always find that stacking trinkets and cooldowns for periodic 15 second bursts of awesomeness is superior to using them each seperately.. i see what you're saying with the 2 vs 3 minute cooldown but you'll still be able to make them overlap at the 0 and 6 minute marks... Also, to solve the mana gems with different names, could you....
/use Mana Emerald
/use Mana Ruby
/use Mana Citrine
and it will use the best one available, and the rest will be on CD? great to know to use the icon first...

That is correct yes, macros use commands in order so it will try the first, fail and go to second and so on.

Originally Posted by Pstar

c) Consumables -- flame cap is a great idea, as are destruction potions if we can get them a SP -- we do have a ret pally to judge wisdom but that probably isn't enough by itself.

Don't underestimate JoW, it really helps if you wanna cream all the dps out, however mages that use the Morogrim trinket will most likely still pump their gems for the dmg increase. I'm personally not a fan of destruction potions unless I'm for some reason running a damage contest, and since the Kael fight for a new guild to it will be tough on the mana I don't recommend it there.

BrTarolg · 01/05/08, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Akron

3. Personally, I use Class Timers. However, the default UI since 2.3 tracks the timer on debuffs such as Improved Scorch now. All warlocks should have some sort of DoT timer to track their curses and other DoTs.

Just a question on that - i use Quartz and that gives me a little ticker for scorch on the bottom of the screen - however, it only does that if i apply it myself.
It also tends to dissappear down the debuff stack on the boss quite a lot and i was wondering how i can fix that? Or is it just a case of getting another addon (class timers?).

Aastarius · 01/07/08, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by BrTarolg

Just a question on that - i use Quartz and that gives me a little ticker for scorch on the bottom of the screen - however, it only does that if i apply it myself.
It also tends to dissappear down the debuff stack on the boss quite a lot and i was wondering how i can fix that? Or is it just a case of getting another addon (class timers?).

Until the next patch comes out (where apparently the Blizzard timers are fixed) have the mages uses scorchio.

• RoboStac · 01/07/08, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Pstar

b) we have mages with the trinket off of morogrim that gives +225 dmg when they use a mana gem. As a rogue I always find that stacking trinkets and cooldowns for periodic 15 second bursts of awesomeness is superior to using them each seperately.. i see what you're saying with the 2 vs 3 minute cooldown but you'll still be able to make them overlap at the 0 and 6 minute marks... Also, to solve the mana gems with different names, could you....
/use Mana Emerald
/use Mana Ruby
/use Mana Citrine
and it will use the best one available, and the rest will be on CD? great to know to use the icon first...

Just to point out something about this, (in a straight dps fight) it's usually a good idea to use the smallest mana gem first, so you can get the buff as often as possible, as waiting till you have a big enough dent in your mana pool for an emerald to worth using can take quite a well.

Having said that, I really don't think these macros are the solution to poor Kael dps, as the fight tends towards a lot of dps interuptions (phase changes, gazes, remote toy stuns etc) and periods where dps is needed (phase 2/3 are dps races, phase 1 isn't, so burning cooldowns in phase 1 would probably cause more problems than it would fix).

Benegesserit · 01/07/08, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by RoboStac

Just to point out something about this, (in a straight dps fight) it's usually a good idea to use the smallest mana gem first, so you can get the buff as often as possible, as waiting till you have a big enough dent in your mana pool for an emerald to worth using can take quite a well.

With the upcoming patch, considering the amount gained by the new emerald, and the fact that it contains 3 charges, I don't think there should be a reason to consider using smaller gems unless the fight is so long that pots, evos, and 3 emeralds won't prevent OOM.

galzohar · 01/07/08, 2:05 PM

If you're using the trinket from morogrim, even with 3 charges you'd probably still use the smaller ones, however you're definitely not as likely to actually use all your gems so it will now require more planning as for which gem to start from.

◊ manly · 01/07/08, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by RoboStac

Just to point out something about this, (in a straight dps fight) it's usually a good idea to use the smallest mana gem first, so you can get the buff as often as possible, as waiting till you have a big enough dent in your mana pool for an emerald to worth using can take quite a well.

Having said that, I really don't think these macros are the solution to poor Kael dps, as the fight tends towards a lot of dps interuptions (phase changes, gazes, remote toy stuns etc) and periods where dps is needed (phase 2/3 are dps races, phase 1 isn't, so burning cooldowns in phase 1 would probably cause more problems than it would fix).

That depends. Under most fights I plan on using flame caps. However, to avoid losing DPS to cast 1 tick of evocation, I generally end up using 1 full rank mana gem followed by flame caps.

Hateires · 01/07/08, 2:39 PM

Hello again Manly

I don't think there is an answer for which gem to use always. It really, like most of the game, is situational

◊ manly · 01/07/08, 2:43 PM

Nice 'quitting the game' there :P