:-P
I am done though. The account went in-active on the 31st. Its nice to still browse the forums.
I always wondered if the change on threat from the Lady Vashj trinket would make AoE nearly no threat at all.
There really is no set rule on when to use mana gems and in what order. It varies greatly based on group comp. and fight length/type. Considering the patch is most likely coming out tomorrow(they took the ptr down already), it is pretty moot anyhow. Not many fights will you need more than 3 mana gems charges. In those that you do now, dark runes are better than the lower ranks anyway. At least with this change, I can stop carrying the runes around as I will still be able to use ruby and citrine.
There really is no set rule on when to use mana gems and in what order. It varies greatly based on group comp. and fight length/type. Considering the patch is most likely coming out tomorrow(they took the ptr down already), it is pretty moot anyhow. Not many fights will you need more than 3 mana gems charges. In those that you do now, dark runes are better than the lower ranks anyway. At least with this change, I can stop carrying the runes around as I will still be able to use ruby and citrine.
The reason being why they were discussing an order of which to use gems in was because they are using the Serpent-Coil Braid.
Also, is there a spell haste coefficient tied in with the new Icy Veins talent?
The reason being why they were discussing an order of which to use gems in was because they are using the Serpent-Coil Braid.
Also, is there a spell haste coefficient tied in with the new Icy Veins talent?
Yes, but even with the braid you would want to maximize the mana return from gems on some fights by using a low rank as soon as you were low enough. Where on others it didn't really matter what rank or when. Now, it will all be just one rank with 3 charges usually.
Icy Veins is, I believe, a 20 percent haste increase.
So, I'm a rogue, but I'm an officer in a guild working on Kael, and our mages need some help -- they're reasonably smart players, they've got the right gems/enchants and solid gear, but their DPS just isn't very good (except of course on solarian/morogrim). I have a few questions that I haven't really seen addressed here that might enable me to help them.
1) What are the best group buffs for a mage? We're starting to raid with a moonkin and an elemental shaman, so that will be nice, but the moonkin kind of needs a shadow priest and we have a destruction warlock who will also want to be in that group, so we'll have at most 1 ideal slot for a mage. For the spillover mages, what should we try to group them with? I'm thinking ele>moonkin>BM Hunter>shadowpriest. As far as raid debuffs go, we have a ret pally and enough locks for CoE (malediction lock usually drops shadows). Am I missing anything here?
2) What are some macros that mages can use to minimize the effect of lag and/or slow reflexes? I.e. how do you cast 3 to 8 fireballs in a row as seamlessly as possible.
2b) What would a macro to simultaneously use cooldowns look like? For example, I want to use a mana gem, icon of the silver crescent, and combustion at the same time. Apologies for the tecnical nature of the question if it's out of place here.
3) What are some popular add-ons that will help enhance mage dps? I'm especially interested in a debuff filter that will only show whether improved scorch and curse of elements is up on the boss.
I've always felt you should pair the Spriest and a resto shaman with the mages, and the destro lock(s) with the elemental shaman.
It's easier for us to take advantage on the 3% hit on the totem.
Maybe in a world where mages need mana. Unfortunately that has never been the case for fire spec. I'm pretty sure s.priest at t6 gear level is optional, as much as it sucks to admit. It avoids me using evocation, which is a dps increase in itself, but technically I don't see anything wrong with having to use evocation to make up for the lack of s.priest.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
It seems to me that 3xFrostbolt rotation with just a little bit of spell haste works better than AM + Scorch in the off-time between AB'ing.
I noticed a significant increase in my DPS, and was shocked. This was also without a full frost mage in the group, which helps (because of the Winter's Chill debuff) a lot I'm betting.
None of the other mages in my guild believe me that Frostbolts do more DPS and more viable DPM, though I constantly outdps them. Does anyone have some numbers on this to prove or disprove this one way other the other?
Yes, but even with the braid you would want to maximize the mana return from gems on some fights by using a low rank as soon as you were low enough. Where on others it didn't really matter what rank or when. Now, it will all be just one rank with 3 charges usually.
Icy Veins is, I believe, a 20 percent haste increase.
Fights that are ten minutes long need 5 gems. If you can pop rank 3 gem early to get the SCB damage increase, you can then use rank 5 for the next 3, and rank 4 to finish up. That being said, with the SCB, it might make sense to conjure another rank 5 3-pack as that would be a net gain in mana. Is losing the in-combat conjure time worth it?
Icy Veins has a 20% haste increase. The patch notes insist on showing it as a casting time reduction, but testing indicates that it is a speed increase.
None of the other mages in my guild believe me that Frostbolts do more DPS and more viable DPM, though I constantly outdps them. Does anyone have some numbers on this to prove or disprove this one way other the other?
Well you could test it out on Dr. Boom in Netherstorm and then post dmg meters on your forums showing the difference (try using Recount and screenshot the graphs and what not)
Or you could use SWstats and Wow Web Stats to upload a record of the raid's dmg, which then breaks up your dmg and their dmg and shows various values.
None of the other mages in my guild believe me that Frostbolts do more DPS and more viable DPM, though I constantly outdps them. Does anyone have some numbers on this to prove or disprove this one way other the other?
I do have a wwstats of myself using a 3xAB, 3xFrostbolt rotation. However, I don't have wwstats of myself using 3xAB, AM, Scorch, since I've not used that build for almost a month. Personally, I find myself doing more DPS using frostbolt instead of AM+scorch.
1599 DPS on Teron: Wow Web Stats
Here are some information which affects DPS in that wwstats.
- 500+ ms latency playing from Singapore (but actual casting lag is around 250 ms)
- 86 haste rating from gears
- 1x heroism received
- no Winterchill debuff on boss
1 big problem is with spell pushback, since any spell pushback while I'm casting frostbolt will make it impossible for me to do a perfect 3xAB, 3xFrostbolt rotation.
Hello again Manly
I don't think there is an answer for which gem to use always. It really, like most of the game, is situational
That is wrong, some chap (Roywyn perhaps if memory serves) proved that with the new Emerald 3-charge gem you in fact are better off using re-casting Emerald IF over the encounter you will down 5 or more gems. For 4 gems, the difference between emerald and Ruby was small. This holds true even with Serpent Coil Braid. If you plan on downing more than 4 gems, you're better off recasting Emerald (though this is a minor DPS hindrance of course) in terms of mana regen over time.
Also, with respect to mana regen over the fight, Destro pots are the last thing you should replace. It was proven earlier that chain-manapots caused the best gain of mp5-per-damage-lost compared to destropots. So only use destropots when you're already using flamecaps instead of mana gems -and- not evocating over the fight.
Finally some gentleman mentioned "pair fire mages with SP/manatide". This is falsely assuming non-fire mages have less mana drain. Arcane mages are manawhores as we all know (though sub-standard output currently) and frostmages even with their pet on spam have the same DPM as firemages.
Given, DPS higher and DPM equal means firemages will have more (2-4%) mana-per-second consumption, but with the changes to Cold Snap meaning frost might do more Icy Veins and Water Elementals than before thus making the slight total mana consumption advantage moot.
What I'm trying to say is, don't leave the frosties without a SP. Also remember that both are at very nicely paired with Ele shamans; Firemages gain mana efficiency from the 3% crit due to Master of Elements and frostmages pet has a party with 3%crit and 3%hit.
Originally Posted by Krazen
I've always felt you should pair the Spriest and a resto shaman with the mages, and the destro lock(s) with the elemental shaman.
It's easier for us to take advantage on the 3% hit on the totem.
That is strictly only true if anyone under the totem's influence hits the cap before the 3% is expended, ie anyone who is at >13% total hit without the totem. That model however assumes (mostly wrongly) that warlocks and mages have equal dps-time and equal dps. As far as I can tell, it all depends on whether or not the locks life-tap. If you have 0 tap-time, then yes probably your superior output would make you the best recipient of ToW, though if you're watching your pew-time minimize it's self due to mana issues I'd argue we're better off with the ToW and you're best served with Mana Tide.
Having respecced for every Illidan attempt (and kill) until now, I can tell that the old belief that frost spec uses less mana is completely wrong, and in fact I end up burning my mana faster without a SP than when I'm fire spec (this spec being a 10/0/51, so no meditation here). It's a common mistake to believe that, and often raid leaders who don't know, or care, this will think "oh, he's frost specced, let's put the SP somewhere else". The fact is that many mages still believe it.
What is more frustrating is, as a fire mage, to see that I struggle to use my mana (I'm still using gems with the SCB), but as soon as the SP is gone (changed group, teron ghost...), it goes a lot worse, and I wish there was some gray area, between infinite mana and normal usage. The resto shaman alone just isn't enough.
It's been a while since the bolt tax was removed, but I just wanted to spread some hope to the handful of up and coming Arcane Mages still out there that Arcane damage is still very viable in BT. I will have to upload some logged dps data, but generally i'm landing between 1600-1750 dps on average now with 150 odd spell haste and 1274 spell damage.
The only thing I do a little different is spam AM which now has a 4.5 second cast time instead of spell rotations
That is wrong, some chap (Roywyn perhaps if memory serves) proved that with the new Emerald 3-charge gem you in fact are better off using re-casting Emerald IF over the encounter you will down 5 or more gems. For 4 gems, the difference between emerald and Ruby was small. This holds true even with Serpent Coil Braid. If you plan on downing more than 4 gems, you're better off recasting Emerald (though this is a minor DPS hindrance of course) in terms of mana regen over time.
I posted that info (from one of our guild mages) in one of these threads. Not having sufficient forum-search-fu, I can't find the post. Here is our forum chat thread, posting by Aryad (Loimos on Draenor) We Wipe On Trash Forums-viewtopic-New Mage Talents - 2.3.2
3 seconds of conjuration time translates to about 2900 expected fire damage. Shortly I will figure out how to express this in equivalent m/5 and dps.
Gem No Resummon With Resummon With
Cum. Mana SCB Cum. Mana SCB
4 1100 1375 730 1330
5 1950 2437 2130 4330
6 2550 3187 4530 7330
The other question that was raised was popping a gem early (before Rank 5 Mana Gem is not wasted) to trigger the SCB for improved DPS goodness. Thus, pop [Mana Jade] after Improved Scorch x 5 is up. The above table gets shifted up by one, and two columns are irrelevant, because you wouldn't do that without the SCB.
Gem No Resummon With Resummon With
Cum. Mana SCB Cum. Mana SCB
4 3000 3000
5 4375 4330
6 5437 7330
This now changes the resummon decision point:
4 gem fight Y N N N
5 gem fight N Y Y N
6 gem fight N N N Y
SCB - N Y -
Early mana gem - - N -
--------------
Resummon Emerald N N Y Y
Resummon if a 6 gem fight, or a 5 gem fight and using the SCB and an early mana gem.
Last edited by Doroteasenjk : 01/08/08 at 12:21 PM.
Reason: Clarify resummon point
This brings me to my next thing: I want an add-on that does a bunch of things for me.
It should be called Mana-Gem-ent (Management - get it?) and do the following things.
Allow you to specify approximate duration of your next fight and display things appropriately.
a) What gems you have conjured, and the number of charges left on Mana Emeralds. Red flag unconjured gems, or shorted Mana Emeralds, when out of combat.
b) Conjure new mana gems, tossing shorted Mana Emeralds if desired out of combat. Conjure new Mana Emerald in combat.
c) Show cool downs on gems.
d) Specify gem sequence, including recasting point, for the fight.
e) Flag when mana deficit allows next gem not to be wasted.
Each of those things can be done pseudo-manually with existing macros, toolbar replacements and add-ons. They take up a lot of screen real estate, hot bar real estate, add-on configuration and time to set up. I like Cryolysis because it folds so many options into one swiss army knife set of buttons; the same for Autobar.
Perhaps I would settle for the heads up display of points (a), (c) and (e).
1 big problem is with spell pushback, since any spell pushback while I'm casting frostbolt will make it impossible for me to do a perfect 3xAB, 3xFrostbolt rotation.
Yeah I find that's my biggest issue. My guild is currently on Vashj and the biggest issue I have is spell pushback... especially with all the lightning flying around. When I was 50/11/0 I would just cast AM, and when I was 10/48/3 (before I got 2pt5 bonus) I would obviously just cast Fireball the 2pt4 bonus.
Now that Icy Veins is out I'm strongly considering just going back to Fire... since it's borderline useless for Arc/Frost because of the GCD.
Having respecced for every Illidan attempt (and kill) until now, I can tell that the old belief that frost spec uses less mana is completely wrong, and in fact I end up burning my mana faster without a SP than when I'm fire spec (this spec being a 10/0/51, so no meditation here). It's a common mistake to believe that, and often raid leaders who don't know, or care, this will think "oh, he's frost specced, let's put the SP somewhere else". The fact is that many mages still believe it.
What is more frustrating is, as a fire mage, to see that I struggle to use my mana (I'm still using gems with the SCB), but as soon as the SP is gone (changed group, teron ghost...), it goes a lot worse, and I wish there was some gray area, between infinite mana and normal usage. The resto shaman alone just isn't enough.
I think at lower gear levels frost tends to use less mana, but when you get up into higher tier gear with 35%+ fire crit, Master of Elements really helps you out a ton.
Hmm, think you can add a section on the theories (proven/under-testing) surrounding the spell queue system and the best ways to achieve fastest casting time?
"Being a leader is not a position of power. It is a position of service." ~ Barestomper
Well the bad news is that I'm pretty sure it got majorly nerfed in 2.3.2. Maybe removing the pagle algorithm did that as a side effect - who knows. But I know that my usualy G15 macroing tonight turned out to look very bad. Most of the time I would see the entire cast go through (ie: not recasting during the red portion). I wonder if others had the same experience.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Yeah I find that's my biggest issue. My guild is currently on Vashj and the biggest issue I have is spell pushback... especially with all the lightning flying around. When I was 50/11/0 I would just cast AM, and when I was 10/48/3 (before I got 2pt5 bonus) I would obviously just cast Fireball the 2pt4 bonus.
Now that Icy Veins is out I'm strongly considering just going back to Fire... since it's borderline useless for Arc/Frost because of the GCD.
I've been through the Vashj learning curve all the way while full frost and I think your problem isn't pushback, it's reliance on a rotation (which mandates standing still) combined with occasional pushback. What's happening is one teeny tiny pushback is knocking your AB rot out of sync and causing you grief. Full frost doesn't suffer as much, for a few reasons: Firstly, when you get pushback, you only lose the time the push cost you. In arcane you also lose a second off your next AB rotation, because it's out of sync. Secondly, your pet is immune to both the sticky goo at P3 and (though I might be wrong) to the debuff in P1 (I might be remembering wrongly, perhaps it's because I always park him somewhere safe).
From your post I've assumed you're arcane-frost, if you're not excuse me. I can't however help wondering, isn't it feasible to juggle some talents around to get at least 80% uninterruptable missiles?
That is strictly only true if anyone under the totem's influence hits the cap before the 3% is expended, ie anyone who is at >13% total hit without the totem. That model however assumes (mostly wrongly) that warlocks and mages have equal dps-time and equal dps. As far as I can tell, it all depends on whether or not the locks life-tap. If you have 0 tap-time, then yes probably your superior output would make you the best recipient of ToW, though if you're watching your pew-time minimize it's self due to mana issues I'd argue we're better off with the ToW and you're best served with Mana Tide.
That's true, but unless your guild is in a lot of t6 pieces, 15% hit (and aura) isn't easy to come by for a Destro Lock.
Anyway, a couple of our mages are using a 40/0/21 arcane/frost spec. I looked through our WWSes from last night and there is a rather large variance on the distribution of arcane dmg v. frost dmg on any given fight.
On some fights, arcane:frost will be 60:40, on others, 30:70.
I have no idea how this spec works. On average, what % of dps comes from frost attacks? My CoD does in the ballpark of 175 dps, and I'm trying to figure out if CoE is needed.
I've been having a rough time finding any definitive answer on the topic, so I'm hopping around getting some opinions on the matter.
As a standard fire specced raiding mage, is Icy Veins worth taking over clearcast if you're fairly confident in your mana pool?
Also, a lot of the mages in my guild have changed to some wierd Arcane/Frost setup, is that better then fire now? I understand the difference either way would only be a percent or three, but we're still working on progressing through some of the later bosses in BT, and I'd like to be as effective as possible for the group.
01/07/08, 3:01 PM
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