11/20/07, 4:06 PM #17 Kewangeder Piston Honda   Ris Night Elf Druid   No WoW Account Regarding whether to scorch a trash mob, here's quick, very sloppy math: Each stack of improved scorch = 3% more fire damage fireball = about 815 damage average, not counting the dot scorch = about 330 damage average Suppose you have 1000 fire +damage, 30% crit, and about double damage on a crit. Your fireball now does 1815 * 1.3 = about 2360 Your scorch now does (330 + 1000 * 3/7) * 1.3 = about 988. Would 2 scorches beat a fireball? 2 scorch = 988*2.03 ~= 2005 ...no, by about 355 However, fireballs would now do about 140 more damage apiece. Three of them would close the gap - 9 seconds. Add in the previous two scorches and you have 12 seconds that mob needs to last. With two fire mages scorching twice apiece, you close the gap in 9 seconds total. Empowered Fireball narrows that gap by around 15%. Incineration widens it by around 5%.
 11/20/07, 4:16 PM #18 Vontre Mr. Sandman     Vontre Gnome Mage   No WoW Account Right, I did the actual theorycraft a while back and was pretty much assuming at least 2 fire mages in my statement. However what you didn't consider is that the tail end of your damage is stronger and more powerful than your initial hits due to molten fury and fire blast. In practice pre-scorching is multiplying your execute finisher, which is considerably more powerful than an initial fireball in non-execute range. Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.
 11/20/07, 5:07 PM #19 Kewangeder Piston Honda   Ris Night Elf Druid   No WoW Account Correct; I deliberately fudged a lot of factors. Basically it comes down to how much you'd fall behind by scorching, vs. how quickly you'll then catch up when you start the fireballs. If you're the only fire mage, stop if another scorch would keep you from casting 3 fireballs; if there are two, stop if you can't cast 2; in either case, stop on a full stack, naturally. One of the things I find noteworthy is that it's really hard to notice the difference, if your raid isn't exactly pushing. Take the Lurker trash, for example - several identical large packs of trash. The big mobs seem to last right about at the 10-second cusp for us, but sometimes it's 9, sometimes 11. A two-second difference is hard to notice when we're chasing down techs, watching our sheep, handling occasional loot, and setting up for the next pull. And scorching first is saving us much less than that, per mob. Any time we gain from that is likely lost from bathroom breaks, not to mention the time drain that is a wipe. It could make a difference in ZA timed runs, of course.
11/20/07, 5:50 PM   #20
Frosti
Glass Joe

Blood Elf Mage

Doomhammer
 Fire Blast is an inefficient use of mana, but is an instant attack, giving it special use at certain times.
Is it higher dps to 2 x fball, 1 x imp fire blast [1/3], or is it only a positioning / finishing spell now, given the increases to fireball? Obviously, any spell haste that you have will make fireball spam a more convincing rotation.

Last edited by Frosti : 11/20/07 at 6:03 PM.

 11/20/07, 7:45 PM #21 Aldric Huzzah for Anime     Aldric Human Mage   Dark Iron It would be nice to see a section on base damage ranges (or average) of the various spells at level 70 for theorycrafting reference purposes.
11/20/07, 7:51 PM   #22
Muphrid
Don Flamenco

Gnome Mage

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by Aldric It would be nice to see a section on base damage ranges (or average) of the various spells at level 70 for theorycrafting reference purposes.
For the sake of theorycraft, I've forked over the gold to clear my talents. I shall have a table of ranges and means shortly.

 11/20/07, 7:56 PM #23 Alvira Don Flamenco   Alvira Human Mage   Dragonblight Arcane rotation isn't outdated. >_< Its the only way to play arcane now in patch 2.3 with AM spam dead. And it remains very competitive. In fact, that style of play gets a new meta gem and increased mana from arcane meditation so it can spam arcane blast more often. So, it was buffed as well, though not on the same level as fire or forst was buffed obviously. But for progressing, it is competitive once you get two piece T5. and remains so until you reach probably BT and start getting four piece set bonus or other T6.
11/20/07, 8:04 PM   #24
galzohar
Bald Bull

Darksorrow (EU)
 Originally Posted by Frosti Is it higher dps to 2 x fball, 1 x imp fire blast [1/3], or is it only a positioning / finishing spell now, given the increases to fireball? Obviously, any spell haste that you have will make fireball spam a more convincing rotation.
Ignoring mana cost, firebalst depends on your spell damage. You can easily see (or calculate if you want to be sure about average values) if youre fireblast is more than 1/2 a fireball and go by that. Calculating the DPM loss is more difficult and requires a speradsheet level of work, but I can guarantee you it's high and significant at any gear level.
In many fights the DPS increase probably isn't worth the positioning requirement, especially with higher gear levels.

 11/20/07, 8:04 PM #25 Muphrid Don Flamenco   Muphrid Gnome Mage   Stormrage Base ranges and means: ```Spell Min Max Mean DoT Arcane Explosion 8 377 407 392 Arcane Missiles 10 264 265 264.5 Blast Wave 8 616 724 670 Blizzard 7 1472 1472 1472 Cone of Cold 6 418 457 437.5 Conjure Mana Agate 375 425 400 Conjure Mana Citrin 775 925 850 Conjure Mana Emeral 1136 1364 1250 Conjure Mana Jade 550 650 600 Conjure Mana Ruby 1000 1200 1100 Dragon's Breath 4 680 790 735 Fire Blast 9 664 786 725 Fire Ward 6 1125 1125 1125 Fireball 13 649 821 735 84 Flamestrike 7 480 585 532.5 424 Frost Nova 5 100 113 106.5 Frost Ward 6 1125 1125 1125 Frostbolt 13 600 647 623.5 Ice Barrier 6 1075 1075 1075 Ice Lance 1 173 200 186.5 Mana Shield 7 715 715 715 Pyroblast 10 939 1191 1065 356 Scorch 9 305 361 333```
 11/20/07, 8:21 PM #26 • frmorrison Protector     Ashstrike Human Paladin   No WoW Account There is still one Arcane Mage and due to getting 13% curse of shadows (the fire Mages never get CoE), he is pretty close to them in damage. It sucks that it takes 13% damage buff and wearing 2 Tier 5 to be competitive to Fire, but it works well for him. Another note is he doesn't have to respec Frost for Illidan, although shatter and iceblock are nice tools to have. I have parsed quite a few Frost Mages, the EP talent gives 6% hit to all frost spells (although it could be fixed anytime), I think that is worth putting up there until it is fixed, so Frost Mages don't go over 10% hit.
 11/20/07, 8:45 PM #27 Pintofbrew Hand Wind Only     Pintofbrew Orc Death Knight   Frostwhisper (EU) Once again I notice the age-old Meta or non-Meta head argument raging. Granted, T4 & T5 have badly distributed stats. Does nobody ever wear the engineering head? It's pretty darn sweet in terms of item budget allocation. I know engineers are a minority but I for one am not taking off the goggles (or the CSD) for a long while to come.
 11/20/07, 10:30 PM #28 Kyuki Piston Honda     Kira Gnome Mage   Emerald Dream (EU) I have absolutly no idea why there are some people that give the new meta game less credit than it deserves. Someone said "It's only a 1-1.5% increase in dmg". This is actually true (dependant), but I dont think the poster knows exactly how big that is. Let's do some math around the CSD to see exactly how good it is, and why the T5 helm can beat the Cowl from VR when you're hit capped, or will get hit capped with either of them (And seriously, if you can loot the headpiece from Vashj, you should be able to reach closer hitcap values without putting 8 hitgems in a headpiece - Not to mention how easy it is to cap as arcane for example) Let's even look at how it would look in comparision if the last piece for the 4set bonus was the helm. I'm going to use my own dmg from our last Vashj to kill show just how good it is. Remember CSD scales with crit, so a firemage would probably get a greater value in the right group. 527816 total dmg 251940 LB crit dmg 59279 CL crit dmg 311219 total crit dmg over 610 seconds. RED dmg = 9071 (1.72%) 14.8 DPS. So how good is 14.8 DPS exactly? 1 spelldmg is roughly 0.33DPS~ 14.8DPS = 44.8~ Spelldmg. (assuming reaching hit cap with the stats given through the helm, distributing gems and stat items diffrently in other pieces) Cowl from VR: 73 spelldmg 21 hit rating 39 crit rating Cowl of Tirisfal: 99.9 spelldmg 40 crit rating 5 hitrating 27~ more spelldmg 1 more crit rating alot less hitrating Assuming you somehow get capped through the headpiece, the T5 helm beats the Cowl from VR because CSD is so good. Let's assume that the head piece was the last piece you swapped to get the 4piece setbonus, then I dont think there is anything to discuss really. With 40%~ crit you can atleast count on a static 50dmg~ gain from the setbonus, and suddenly when you swapped from the cowl to the T4 headpiece you made a 80+dmg upgrade - Just like that!
 11/20/07, 11:22 PM #29 galzohar Bald Bull   Galzohar Blood Elf Paladin   Darksorrow (EU) To really compare meta gems I would give them a spell damage value based on my gear. % means nothing unless you at least know how much spell damage, crit etc you need for 1%. In fact I was always remembering how much of X stat I need for 1% and use that value to convert stats, since most effects are easily converted into a +% damage (haste, crit, hit, MSD proc...). CSD can be easily converted into additional crit rating based on your current crit, as well, and you should know how good crit rating is for you. What should be noted as a sure thing though, helms with meta sockets are obviously total crap with a meta different than MSD/CSD, when compared to anything anywhere near it in terms of progression. Spellstrike beats hands down T4/5 if you're not using MSD/CSD, and still seems to be beating T4 with my gear at least with the spellstrike set bonus included.
 11/20/07, 11:37 PM #30 Kyuki Piston Honda     Kira Gnome Mage   Emerald Dream (EU) Doesnt matter what value you want to give it. If you say it's X% DPS that's enough. When I translated it to +dmg I merely did it to show how good it is, and it is easy to convert DPS to dmg not considering what you are using so.. Spellstrike is indeed better than T4. It's when you're closing in on T5 4 pieces it gets interesting to replace it.