Kittenslayer: Looking at that WWS, Corpsebreath spent under 3 minutes dpsing despite the fight lasting over 4 minutes. That's over 25% of his dps gone already. Also didn't use a flame cap or destro pot, likely because he didn't have a shadow priest, whereas you did. Other things you could look for are whether they are stacking their cooldowns in molten fury range, and how efficiently the fire mages are scorching. The WWS shows that scorch fell off at one point.
On the topic of skill, I hope we will able to speak a bit more candidly about how much it really takes playing some of these specs. I mean I know exactly how much skill a lock destruction spec takes, I don't feel a mage fire spec takes too much more. Fire spec mages and destruction locks aren't exactly rocket science.
They aren't street mopping either if you want to actually perform to the limit of your gear.
So...you're comparing yourself to one mage that died and another that ran out of mana because they didn't have a shadow priest and only used one mana gem for some reason. Great.
Kittenslayer: Looking at that WWS, Corpsebreath spent under 3 minutes dpsing despite the fight lasting over 4 minutes. That's over 25% of his dps gone already. Also didn't use a flame cap or destro pot, likely because he didn't have a shadow priest, whereas you did. Other things you could look for are whether they are stacking their cooldowns in molten fury range, and how efficiently the fire mages are scorching. The WWS shows that scorch fell off at one point.
The actual damage dealt is pretty close. The fire mage only spent 75% of the time casting, had no shadow priest, and mangled his mana regen from consumable, but dealt 92% the damage of the arcane mage. It's pretty obvious that if this fire mage had a shadow priest, the numbers wouldn't even be close. Plus the fire mage isn't even hit capped! He has almost 12% from gear and 3% from talents, so he needs another 12 spell hit to get capped, easily obtainable by shifting some gems in his spellfire robe. He also has blazing speed, although his talents are pretty good overall.
And for the record, 1477 DPS for a mage isn't that great. As a shadow priest with an optimal group, I can get that much damage. Mages should be a couple hundred DPS above that.
Sorry to say but for your gear level your best caster seems to be your shadow priest Kitten. On top of your casters being neglected to double hero the melee group, something I never understood since only mages, warlocks and BM hunters fully benefit from the 30% haste.
Haste does not affect DPM in any way. The only downside is that you use mana faster, it's a direct longevity issue, not a ratio issue. You are still doing the same damage with the same amount of mana cost for that damage.
If you include mana regeneration as part of your DPM calculation, which is the only way to actually get useful numbers, then yes it does reduce DPM. You regenerate slightly less mana per spell cast. It is also a DPM loss relative to spell damage, which is a DPM increase.
Arcane mages arguably don't get the full extent of bloodlust, although that is more semantics than anything else.
Originally Posted by Kittenslayer
[...]
On the topic of skill, I hope we will able to speak a bit more candidly about how much it really takes playing some of these specs. I mean I know exactly how much skill a lock destruction spec takes, I don't feel a mage fire spec takes too much more. Fire spec mages and destruction locks aren't exactly rocket science.
I am not trying to single you out, but rather to repeat a point. Fire spec might not be exactly rocket science, however, for some reason I could never figure out precisely, if you look at WWS across a wide number of guilds, there is typically a huge discrepancy in mage dps, both intra-guild and across-guilds. I theorised that skills is probably enough to give you that extra 100-200 dps on teron gorefiend, despise the fact that the fight requires the least amount of 'skills'.
Perhaps fire spec has more intricacies than meets the eye?
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
If you include mana regeneration as part of your DPM calculation, which is the only way to actually get useful numbers, then yes it does reduce DPM. You regenerate slightly less mana per spell cast. It is also a DPM loss relative to spell damage, which is a DPM increase.
With or without haste, you aren't leaving the FSR while chain casting, so your mana regen shouldn't change just because you are casting faster.
Sorry to say but for your gear level your best caster seems to be your shadow priest Kitten. On top of your casters being neglected to double hero the melee group, something I never understood since only mages, warlocks and BM hunters fully benefit from the 30% haste.
It was a screwy night, I grabbed the last parse that had shabootie in it, like I said she hasn't raided for +2k weeks, that wasn't me on kitten, it was me on shabootie and a friend on kitten if that makes sense
Originally Posted by Zinaida View Post
Kittenslayer: Looking at that WWS, Corpsebreath spent under 3 minutes dpsing despite the fight lasting over 4 minutes. That's over 25% of his dps gone already. Also didn't use a flame cap or destro pot, likely because he didn't have a shadow priest, whereas you did. Other things you could look for are whether they are stacking their cooldowns in molten fury range, and how efficiently the fire mages are scorching. The WWS shows that scorch fell off at one point.
The actual damage dealt is pretty close. The fire mage only spent 75% of the time casting, had no shadow priest, and mangled his mana regen from consumable, but dealt 92% the damage of the arcane mage. It's pretty obvious that if this fire mage had a shadow priest, the numbers wouldn't even be close. Plus the fire mage isn't even hit capped! He has almost 12% from gear and 3% from talents, so he needs another 12 spell hit to get capped, easily obtainable by shifting some gems in his spellfire robe. He also has blazing speed, although his talents are pretty good overall.
Noticed some other things too. Arcane mage, besides having an SP had a hunter that she received ferocious inspiration from 19 times. Further more even with 2 fire mages dpsing for half the fight (just corpse is dpsing the last half) somehow they fail to keep up fire vulnerability. And by that I don't mean they just let it drop by accident and put it back up. After the inital fire vulnerability stack nobody bothers to put it up again until inside the last minute of the fight. That's 3/4 of the fight with no +15% fire dmg, insert
Perhaps fire spec has more intricacies than meets the eye?
here lol. And still despite not knowing how to watch a simple timer and being in a very retarded group he does very close to the same dmg as the arc mage even though she is a noticeably better geared and grouped. Oh yeah and lastly it's probably just as well that other fire mage got ghosts since with no ele precision, no totem of wrath and a 17/44/0 spec with 118 spell hit he might as well not even be there. Same with your locks, they are doing pretty garbage dps.
Fire spec might not be exactly rocket science, however, for some reason I could never figure out precisely, if you look at WWS across a wide number of guilds, there is typically a huge discrepancy in mage dps, both intra-guild and across-guilds. I theorised that skills is probably enough to give you that extra 100-200 dps on teron gorefiend, despise the fact that the fight requires the least amount of 'skills'.
Perhaps fire spec has more intricacies than meets the eye?
That's the same feeling I was getting. With similar gear, the differences seems to be in commitments to full pve specs, proper itemization, use of consumables and effort.
With warlocks, I see people jumping straight into destruction from affliction and missing a really nice window between t5 and t6 where demonology actually pulls ahead of destruction. I was just curious what the picture looked like for mages, if there was still a gap, somewhere between t5 and t6 gear, where arcane is ahead.
I'm definitely not arguing arcane is better than fire at end game.
Noticed some other things too. Arcane mage, besides having an SP had a hunter that she received ferocious inspiration from 19 times. Further more even with 2 fire mages dpsing for half the fight (just corpse is dpsing the last half) somehow they fail to keep up fire vulnerability. And by that I don't mean they just let it drop by accident and put it back up. After the inital fire vulnerability stack nobody bothers to put it up again until inside the last minute of the fight. That's 3/4 of the fight with no +15% fire dmg. And still despite not knowing how to watch a simple timer and being in a very retarded group he does very close to the same dmg as the arc mage even though she is a noticeably better geared and grouped. Oh yeah and lastly it's probably just as well that other fire mage got ghosts since with no ele precision, no totem of wrath and a 17/44/0 spec with 118 spell hit he might as well not even be there. Same with your locks, they are doing pretty garbage dps.
Yea I didn't notice the fire vuln debuff dropping off. Any fight which doesn't have any breaks in action will favor fire mages b/c arcane mages can't use downtime to let AB debuff drop off (Prince Naj, supremus, BB etc). I also tried starting dps later to try to counter the group buff advantage, with 5% less dps time trying to make up for BM hunters.
I must be missing something. A shadow priest is going to return the same mana to me whether I'm casting hasted, casting unhasted, or standing there oom and afk. I also don't understand what raid buffs are relevant to DPM with haste. It seems like the comparison would be a lot simpler than this. DPM is the damage done per mana spent and if haste is the only variable we are changing then a fireball that hits for 6k for 400 mana every second vs. a fireball that hits for 6k for 400 mana every 3 seconds is still 6k damage per 400 mana in both situations.
Yeah I wasn't trying to be a dick, it seems like she is a good player her gear makes sense etc... but the more you look into the fight log the more retarded mistakes you see the other dps casters making, and this is a very short fight where basically everyone is just standing in one spot the whole time dpsing for God's sake. Hell you could probably be 0/0/0 and still out dps most of the casters, these arent the players you want to use as a measuring stick for your improvement I'll tell you that much.
As for:
If you include mana regeneration as part of your DPM calculation, which is the only way to actually get useful numbers, then yes it does reduce DPM. You regenerate slightly less mana per spell cast. It is also a DPM loss relative to spell damage, which is a DPM increase.
Well that is true; but unless your using mage armor, or have meditation (or both obviously) this is a very trivial amount of mana regen. I don't understand your second sentence though, yes if you had +dmg in place of the +haste your "fireball" will have a higher DPM but if your fireball had a higher DPS with the +haste item than it does with the +dmg item your basically trading a little DPS for a little DPM which makes no sense to be doing with fire. By the time you have enough +haste that going OOM even becomes a possibility most of the other dps are going to have alot of haste as well and going towards oom faster doesn't matter if the boss is going towards dead faster at the same rate or most likely even a faster rate.
I must be missing something. A shadow priest is going to return the same mana to me whether I'm casting hasted, casting unhasted, or standing there oom and afk. I also don't understand what raid buffs are relevant to DPM with haste. It seems like the comparison would be a lot simpler than this. DPM is the damage done per mana spent and if haste is the only variable we are changing then a fireball that hits for 6k for 400 mana every second vs. a fireball that hits for 6k for 400 mana every 3 seconds is still 6k damage per 400 mana in both situations.
The way DPM is usually accounted for:
[cost of spell] - [mana regened during the cast]
So each spell would be faster and you'd regen less per spell on average. It's just a question of how the information is presented.
So each spell would be faster and you'd regen less per spell on average. It's just a question of how the information is presented.
I assume that's what Vontre meant anyway.
I don't think that's an accurate way to gauge DPM. You're going to regen at the same pace while chain casting regardless of what spell you cast or the speed of your casts due to the five second rule.
I meant to say that the effective cost of a spell is the cost with the mana regened during the cast subtracted. That's why it matters for dpm. It's a clean way to account for mana regen.
I don't think that's an accurate way to gauge DPM. You're going to regen at the same pace while chain casting regardless of what spell you cast or the speed of your casts due to the five second rule.
No no. Let's just make an hypothetical example:
you cast 10 fireballs at 2000 (round numbers make calculations easy) dmg per fireball at 600 mana each
1st scenario: you cast each fireball in 3 seconds. Say in combat each 5 second you regen 100 mana. So in 30 seconds you regen 300 mana. So your DPM:
20,000 (damage) / ((600 * 10) - 300)
2nd scenario: you cast fireball in 2 seconds. So in 20 seconds you regen 200 mana. So your DPM:
20,000 / (6000 - 200)
Note in the 2nd scenario your denominator is bigger, making your DPM smaller.
- You will run oom faster (this is what Vontre's point leads to - you lose more mana per second with haste because your spellcast cost is unchanged but you regen less during that cast because that cast is faster). Your mana expended per second is increased
- Your DPM (the damage you can do with one point of mana) is unchanged - if you had infinite haste, you could simply empty your entire mana pool in a second, and then sit around regenning, and empty it again, and so on, and in the end you would do exactly as much damage as you could have without the haste, if you had been able to run yourself oom without the haste
- Following from the previous point, it's a DPS increase because it is invariably hard to run yourself oom using all mana consumables, so faster casting generally just means more DPS (even if you have to stop using destro pots or whatnot), since the increased MPS can be easily compensated for or is moot
I don't think that's an accurate way to gauge DPM. You're going to regen at the same pace while chain casting regardless of what spell you cast or the speed of your casts due to the five second rule.
The five second rule bears absolutely no relevance to what we are talking about. Shadow priests will give you a non-trivial amount of mana regeneration while chain-casting. If you empty your mana pool faster, you get less total mana from the regen.
To calculate how long you can cast a spell before you go oom, you calculate rate of mana consumption like so.
[mana cost of spell] - [mana regened during cast]
This number is far more relevant than simply taking the mana spent per cast because it has real applications for theorycrafting.
I'm sure other people have similar experiences, but when I wrote my own Perl theorycraft program, I found it was much, much easier to account for regen by building it into dpm.
On the interpretation side of things, the alternative is to present the user with -mps (mana spent per second) and +mps (mana regenned per second). But if you're eyeballing things to optimize gear and such, I find it much easier to just look at dps and dpm and trade dps for dpm when mana limited. If we don't use dpm, then we'd have to compare dps, +mps, and -mps all at once, which is more of a pain in the butt, especially as mana consumption stats like +/- mps don't account for the affect on damage, which is the thing we're trying to optimize.
I'm sure other people have similar experiences, but when I wrote my own Perl theorycraft program, I found it was much, much easier to account for regen by building it into dpm.
On the interpretation side of things, the alternative is to present the user with -mps (mana spent per second) and +mps (mana regenned per second). But if you're eyeballing things to optimize gear and such, I find it much easier to just look at dps and dpm and trade dps for dpm when mana limited. If we don't use dpm, then we'd have to compare dps, +mps, and -mps all at once, which is more of a pain in the butt, especially as mana consumption stats like +/- mps don't account for the affect on damage, which is the thing we're trying to optimize.
Hmm I do see your problem. Since mana regen and haste obviously increases your damage out put, but mana regen doesn't get reflected in DPS and haste negatively affects DPM. Maybe we can come up with a weighted average of the two...
Kittenslayer: Looking at that WWS, Corpsebreath spent under 3 minutes dpsing despite the fight lasting over 4 minutes. That's over 25% of his dps gone already. Also didn't use a flame cap or destro pot, likely because he didn't have a shadow priest, whereas you did. Other things you could look for are whether they are stacking their cooldowns in molten fury range, and how efficiently the fire mages are scorching. The WWS shows that scorch fell off at one point.
Caedos, even tho he died, missed 11.4% of his fireballs, which means he's not hit capped. According to his current armory he's sitting at 118. That's not good... especially this stage in the game.
Alright, so I decided to do some math and whipped up some lazy psuedo code and it seems like haste does eventually slightly decrease DPM using hardcoded numbers. I still don't quite understand why, but I'm willing to accept it. This is just an idea of a 3 minute chain casting with spriest giving 175 mp5 and BoW giving 41 mp5 as the only regen while casting. I guess it's important to note that haste only decreases your DPM if there is some sort of in casting regen available to you. If you are using molten armor, not grouped with an spriest, and don't have BoW then haste isn't affecting your DPM.
03/20/08, 11:52 AM
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