Sweet Informational Thread - Page 3

Copernicus · 11/21/07, 1:52 AM

The comparison is between the +X% that the CSD gives (which is a static number equal to 0.03 * the crit percentage) vs the Engineer/Spellstrike/Hexing's crit/hit rating that is given.

[Cowl of the Grand Engineer] gives over 3% from hit and crit ratings (assuming two +8 hit gems) vs the [Cowl of Tirisfal]. It's actually really simple to see if you plug in the items to a spreadsheet.

Sancus · 11/21/07, 2:05 AM

which is a static number equal to 0.03 * the crit percentage

CSD does not give 3% increased damage on crits, It uses the old RED mechanics - this means it gives 6.3% to fire, for example.(It increases your 150% crit multiplier to 154.5%, which is then multiplied by 1.4 by Ignite) - for Frost, it's a 9% increase due to Ice Shards.

If CSD was just a flat 3%, no one would use it cause it would suck.

Copernicus · 11/21/07, 2:28 AM

Originally Posted by Sancus

CSD does not give 3% increased damage on crits, It uses the old RED mechanics - this means it gives 6.3% to fire, for example.(It increases your 150% crit multiplier to 154.5%, which is then multiplied by 1.4 by Ignite) - for Frost, it's a 9% increase due to Ice Shards.

If CSD was just a flat 3%, no one would use it cause it would suck.

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.

Sancus · 11/21/07, 2:31 AM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.

Yeah, you're right, I misinterpreted, although it seems that it would go up 4.5% if you were frost spec, because Ice Shards multiplies the bonus from CSD.

I guess CSD is only better than the tooltip implies if you have a proper crit multiplier increase talent instead of the odd Ignite mechanic.

but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus).

Honestly, though, it's more and more common to evaluate items ignoring their hit due to how easy it is to hitcap, and if you're Arcane spec(which is what performs best at the T5 gear level, and what the set is designed for) then this isn't a concern.

If you only have access to T5 content for some reason, then I'd say T5 helm with CSD is still significantly better than the Cowl.

instantkill · 11/21/07, 2:50 AM

I have a question about the weight of stats

spell hit rating (to cap) > spell haste rating > spell damage > spell crit rating > spell penetration

Is there any background or additional info available on why spellhaste>spell damage?
I would assume it is up to a certain extent, any chance you could include some values up to where its not really usefull anymore to increase your haste rating?.

Inoko · 11/21/07, 5:21 AM

Originally Posted by instantkill

I have a question about the weight of stats

Is there any background or additional info available on why spellhaste>spell damage?
I would assume it is up to a certain extent, any chance you could include some values up to where its not really usefull anymore to increase your haste rating?.

Around 900 spell haste rating (unless I failed utterly when I decided to see if I could do it), fireballs become GCD limited. It's not possible to reach that much spell haste rating (passively), so it's always going to give a decent boost. The problem is that spell haste gear has crappy other stats, usually.

I could, of course, be utterly failing at "the math", though.

Ignus · 11/21/07, 5:24 AM

I always thought it went spell hit > spell damage > spell crit >= haste rating

Roywyn · 11/21/07, 7:45 AM

On the topic of meta gems, this is what the sheet tells us with top-end gear:

Fireball spam
Base: 1822 DPS, +1 dmg yields +0.84 DPS
CSD: 1858 DPS => CSD is ~42 dmg
MSD: 1863 DPS => MSD is ~49 dmg

Frostbolt spam with 40% WE uptime
Base: 1711 DPS, +1 dmg yields +0.77 DPS (0.73 on Frostbolt, the remaining 0.04 on WE)
CSD: 1757 DPS => CSD is ~59 dmg
MSD: 1742 DPS => MSD is ~40 dmg

Notice that you'd have to resocket for 1/2 amethysts for MSD/CSD, losing the equivalent of 2-9 spell damage depending on gem level (you lose a lot less on rare gem levels) and possible socket bonuses.

Also, those damage equivalents scale with gear. Not as much as one would think, but they still do.

This should still give a figure for determining the value of headpieces with and without meta gems.

Edit: MSD requires more blue than yellow, CSD requires at least 2 blue gems (announced for the next patch).
So you can't just take "all red" but have to fit in the other gems.

Pintofbrew · 11/21/07, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ignus

I always thought it went spell hit > spell damage > spell crit >= haste rating

You thought wrong. For most specs spell damage and spell haste in fact give almost identical benefit, with haste marginally ahead (1haste~=1.05dmg). This is perfectly reasonable given that it does not improve DPM. Any simulator will demonstrate equivallence including Vontre's Sheet and Lhivera's TC.

Roywyn: Note it has been anounced that CSD req will change from "2 blue" to "at least two blue" some time in the future. Though at T6 level this means nothing (you still have to sub a pair of purples for a pair of +12s) but at lower ilevel it makes for better benefits as many useful items have blue socket req with decent bonuses (eg. Badge gloves, belt of blasting).

(Not aimed at Ignus) Given that we're all capable of at least plugging some stats into a web-page can we all stop re-iterating the age-old "can someone please post how much +dmg is x haste/hit/crit/croissant?" please. It's getting tiring.

Kyuki · 11/21/07, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by Copernicus

With a 100% crit rate, my damage would go up exactly 3% with a CSD.

Assuming my Fireballs hit for 100 damage, a critical hit would be for 210 damage. A critical hit with a CSD would be for 216.3 damage, a 6.3% increase on my regular hit but only a 3% increase from my actual critical hit.

I do keep forgetting that CSD gives 12 crit rating, but a Cowl of the Grand Engineer is still slightly better than the Tier 5 helm just based on the hit rating (worth 2.5% or so of a bonus). And realistically, the main thing to look at is how useless spirit is for a mage now- the 24 spirit on the Tier 5 helm is hurting it a lot more than the metagem socket.

If you're not hitcapped then absolutly the Grand Engineer is better, but it would be unwise to not stack hit somewhere else to cap out hit so you can get the great benefit of something that scales really well and gives you alot more than other items would when it comes down to DPS gain - assuming hit cap.

When evaluating the item vs item, it's not hard to see which one is better indeed, but as I said in my above post with calcs, if you consider getting hit capped with other items the T5 helm will win, even if you dont get the 4set bonus - and if you do it'll win by a pretty huge margin.

Dustwhisper · 11/21/07, 10:17 AM

Think I'm more interested in T6 helm/illidary cowl over getting T5 helm tbh as an upgrade/replacement of Grand engineer. I tend to prefer getting certain stats I need via gems since it's easier to do 1:1 replacements via gems than items where it's nearly impossible.

Kyuki · 11/21/07, 10:26 AM

I dont want to sound rude, but if you are at that level of raiding, why would you want the T5 over T6 or Illidari cowl in the first place?

If you're not, then well, I hate to repeat myself, but capping hit elsewhere and getting the T5 helm would be a upgrade from the grand engineer.

It's about distributing your stats to gain the most from certain items to get a overall upgrade.

Dustwhisper · 11/21/07, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kyuki

I dont want to sound rude, but if you are at that level of raiding, why would you want the T5 over T6 or Illidari cowl in the first place?

If you're not, then well, I hate to repeat myself, but capping hit elsewhere and getting the T5 helm would be a upgrade from the grand engineer.

It's about distributing your stats to gain the most from certain items to get a overall upgrade.

I'm not too far away from it atleast, 3/5 hyjal, 5/9 BT with 7 bosses in last 8 days =D But still what my point was, I think the gain would be marginal and a waste of time to spend getting to atm. Not to mention it is my beliefe that T5 is better for warlocks to spend their points on than mages.

Kyuki · 11/21/07, 10:58 AM

Certainly not worth having your guild going to Vashj just for that reason, that's a waste of time if nothing else, and you can very well wait till you get T6 then ofc

Frenzi · 11/21/07, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Vontre

For arcane mages, the cap is 76. For fire and frost mages, that number is 164.

This should be edited to reflect how Elemental Precision effects Frostbolt