Vontre's Magegraf, advanced theorycrafting tool for mages. - Page 3

◊ Vontre · 05/24/08, 6:04 PM

I believe the number is "dps per point", or itemization point. So you might get say, 1.2 dps per point of crit or whatever.

The graph is showing stat worth as "x" increases, but I forgot to label x. X is always shown as your best available stat at the time. So the projection is for stacking stat 'x', usually spell damage, and you can see any intersection points at which it becomes better to stack another stat. Usually there is an intersection of spell haste at some point, though there is often no intersection at all, because spell damage is pretty much king of the hill right now.

Now, I've been working on a way to display arcane modeling accurately, so we can see if maybe intellect or spirit become viable at some point. The problem is arcane requires a complex simulation to weigh stats, and I have to make that calculation at about 25 points 5 times over, basically the page takes like 5 minutes to load. So I'm working on a quicker method of calculation, as usually for stat weight an estimate is viable, but I'm having a lot of trouble with its accuracy. I could be stuck on this for a while.

I'll be working on some fixes and better labels in the meantime.

◊ Vontre · 05/24/08, 6:07 PM

Re: warlock simulations

I'd caution against relying too heavily on the affliction model, the DoT code is... not built very well at the moment. I've largely ignored it because affliction sucks anyway.

However, for fire/shadow, we've already noted some discrepancies with leulier's spreadsheet that were supposedly addressed, however it is indeed possible there is more that we've overlooked. I've been working with Kyth on some of the warlock numbers. Anyone who would like to examine the detail logs for errors would have my appreciation.

Lrac, could you link your results here for examination? It could be as simple as forgetting the improved scorch setting, or an ISB uptime error.

◊ Vontre · 05/24/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Zephriel

Vontre, thanks for all the work you've put into this. It's truly a spectacular tool.

If I'm reading the effect timing section properly, Magegraf sometimes doesn't save Icy Veins and Combustion for the <20% HP (molten fury) zone. For example, running the simulator for 2/48/11 for a 3-minute fight:

http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...1c3f97fd87a11d

It appears that IV/Combustion are used towards the very beginning of the fight (6.57) instead of being stacked with other cooldowns in the MF zone (138.99?). Could this potentially diminish the accuracy of the sim for deep fire builds?

I should be able to fix this, just a logic oversight in the simulation code. Thanks.

• Sservis · 05/24/08, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

I believe the number is "dps per point", or itemization point. So you might get say, 1.2 dps per point of crit or whatever.

Thanks for putting this in there. It's a great feature that I can easily point some of our less theory inclined casters to to help them make decisions. However, I'm struggling to come up with an idiot proof explanation.

When you say "per itemization point", my understanding would be as follows

Say the numbers come out as (Manly with a full complement of raid buffs)

Spell Damage:       1.15
Spell Haste Rating: 1.09
Spell Crit Rating:  0.73
Intellect:          0.22
Spirit:             0.11
Spell Hit Rating:   0

I have no trouble explaining the values, until I get to the Spell Damage figure.

1.09 for Haste Rating means that with a Quick Lionseye they gain 10.9 dps (they think 10 * 1.09)
0.73 for Spell Crit Rating means that with a Gleaming Lionseye they gain 7.3 dps (they think 10 * 0.73)

etc

However,

1.15 for Spell Damage means that with a Runed Crimson Spinel they gain 11.5 dps (they think wtf, 1.15 * 12 = 13.8)

Furthermore, if they go to lootrank or any similar gear evaluation tool to plug in the stat values they're very likely to plug in 1.15 for damage rather than some rounding of 0.9583333.

I'd like to suggest that the numbers listed be idiot proofed. Rather than ranking the stats by their "epic gem value" essentially, could they be ranked by their per point of stat value? The EJ community can multiply 12 * 0.96 and compare that against 1.09 * 10 just as easily as we can compare 1.15 against 1.09, but not everyone gets the "per itemization point".

It would also alleviate the explanation difficulties if the values were "per pure epic gem" as opposed to "per itemization point", ie listing damage as 11.5 and haste as 10.9. Then we could explain the values as the full gem value, they need to divide by the number of points in a gem if they want the per stat point value, etc.

Also, rare gems with the above weights come out with Runed worth 8.625 dps and Quick worth 8.72 dps due to the way the different gems round, while epic gems are 11.5 and 10.9 in the other order. The ordering of which is better to gem depends on the rounding in the gem, which is harder to calculate when given a "per itemization point" value than when given a "per stat point" value.

Psyche · 05/24/08, 9:35 PM

I didn't notice an option for +12 Intellect to Bracers enchant. Maybe I just missed it, but if it's not there you might want to add it in. I understand it's not optimal, but it is a cheap enchant and good for comparisons for some people.

Lrac · 05/26/08, 9:08 AM

That shadow turned out as better personal dps than fire was probably from me missing to check the scorch or something like u said. The difference between fire and shadow are now pretty equal to what leulier give me.

http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...a9300ccb63bf09

However, leulier give me a theoretical dps of 2200, whereas magegraf only 1885. Same gear and raidbuffs this time

In all honesty, the dps I get from magegraf looks more like the dmg I'm actually able to pull ingame, but where do you think the difference come from?

Pyrates · 05/26/08, 10:15 AM

I'm not sure if I'm reading it correctly, but to me it seems as if my Darkmoon Card: Crusade adds a static 8 Damage bonus. Look here: http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...5f896cb9d62ba8 Also, the chaotic skyfire diamond seems to change the base crit multiplier from 0.5 to 0.55, shouldn't that be 0.53? Lastly, the effects timing seems skewly listed. As far as I understand, then numbers are the times as spell is casted, and the effect that is active is listed. But at, say, 309.8, it lists the destruction potion twice, see here http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...116acfc8576b7c Sorry if all of that is trivial, just want to help

Pintofbrew · 05/26/08, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Psyche

I didn't notice an option for +12 Intellect to Bracers enchant. Maybe I just missed it, but if it's not there you might want to add it in. I understand it's not optimal, but it is a cheap enchant and good for comparisons for some people.

For arcane, you are wrong. It is in fact optimal, provided you Evo each boss which in all honesty, you should as arcane.

TheSorcerer · 05/26/08, 12:55 PM

There is a problem with german Umlauts in the magegraf tool. I cannot get profiles from the armory if either the user or the realm name contains umlauts.

This is what magegraf produces:

The World of Warcraft Armory

This is how it *should* look like:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I believe it is some kind of character encoding issue, but I'm not sure.

Psyche · 05/26/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

For arcane, you are wrong. It is in fact optimal, provided you Evo each boss which in all honesty, you should as arcane.

I haven't raided as arcane, so I don't keep as up-to-date with the subtleties for that spec. Either way, you just reemphasize my point that the option isn't there, and should be.

◊ tenshi · 05/26/08, 6:44 PM

Vontre, can you please add [Reckless Noble Topaz], [Forceful Talasite] and [Forceful Seaspray Emerald]?

Also, I didn't see +15 Spell Hit Rating enchant to gloves. Could that be added also?

Tifordin · 05/26/08, 8:27 PM

No Spell Hit or Blasting for that matter is available to gloves.

Bersi · 05/27/08, 6:05 AM

Vontre, following errors occured when i imported my char from The World of Warcraft Armory

Head
- Vengefull Gladiator Silk - no Bonus defined (+4 undefined)
- [Runed Ornate Ruby] not recognized

Neck
- [Runed Crimson Spinel] not recognized (its the one from the TDM Quest)

Wrist
- [Shining Fire Opal] not recognized

Gloves
- Major Spellpower not recognized

Belt
- [Infused Amethyst] not recognized

Legs
- [Vivid Chrysoprase] not recognized

covax · 05/27/08, 11:57 AM

Vontre, there are following errors with the bracer enchants:

- Enchant bracer - Spellpower is missing,
- Enchant bracer - Major Intellect adds 15 spell damage and 12 intellect.

Updated: I was talking about the site, not an excel file.

Beregon · 05/27/08, 5:12 PM

This will be an amazing tool once it's fully operational.

At the moment it seems to be allowing deficit spending on mana. With my mage alt (Spellstrike/Spellfire, etc gear), default buff settings, 480 second fight it is giving me 1138 DPS (+4169 mana) Fire, 1072 DPS (-9285 mana) Arcane. It seems to be deficit spending on the Arcane model.

When I remove Mana Spring from the Mana Regen list, the numbers go to 1138 DPS (-647 mana) Fire, 1072 DPS (-14137 mana) Arcane.

Am I interpreting the Mana correctly? Is the program spending more mana than is available?

Thanks.

◊ Vontre · 05/27/08, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beregon

This will be an amazing tool once it's fully operational.

At the moment it seems to be allowing deficit spending on mana. With my mage alt (Spellstrike/Spellfire, etc gear), default buff settings, 480 second fight it is giving me 1138 DPS (+4169 mana) Fire, 1072 DPS (-9285 mana) Arcane. It seems to be deficit spending on the Arcane model.

When I remove Mana Spring from the Mana Regen list, the numbers go to 1138 DPS (-647 mana) Fire, 1072 DPS (-14137 mana) Arcane.

Am I interpreting the Mana correctly? Is the program spending more mana than is available?

Thanks.

This looks like an error. Could you paste your results?

Fizzbang · 05/28/08, 3:44 PM

Thank you for this tool for the less inclinded theory-crafters

I did encounter an error (IE 7 browser) When trying to view spell detail for Arcane/Ice (40/0/21):

Fatal error: Call to a member function remove_all() on a non-object in /home/17107/domains/magegraf.com/html/index.php on line 774

Thank you again for your efforts.

Beregon · 05/28/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

This looks like an error. Could you paste your results?

I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I went in and recreated it somewhat...different set of numbers, but I'm still seeing what appears to be deficit spending. When I go over to the Mana Consumption tab it appears to be triggering Pots and Evocations but continuing to cast into the negative when those are unavailable.

Hopefully the link with the hash is what you need: http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...5d3aba91b1fe75

Edit: I'm not seeing any Mana Gems on the Mana Consumption tab either and I thought they were in there yesterday.

◊ Vontre · 05/28/08, 8:14 PM

Originally Posted by Beregon

I'm not sure exactly how to do that. I went in and recreated it somewhat...different set of numbers, but I'm still seeing what appears to be deficit spending. When I go over to the Mana Consumption tab it appears to be triggering Pots and Evocations but continuing to cast into the negative when those are unavailable.

Hopefully the link with the hash is what you need: http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...5d3aba91b1fe75

Edit: I'm not seeing any Mana Gems on the Mana Consumption tab either and I thought they were in there yesterday.

Yeah, you can copy the url of any graph you make to paste an exact replica that anyone can view, and it recalculates on the fly too. It stores the values in a hash table, which I thought was really clever. Anyway!

Ok, so this is working as intended. The simulator does indeed allow deficit spending. Why? This is to account for user intelligence in mana spending. As long as the mana comes around eventually, it can be spent. So a real person might spam AB for 30 seconds, AM for 10, then drink a pot and go back to AB, back and forth etc. This isn't modeled because it's not necessary. Deficit spending allows the user a lot more flexibility. Arcane spec spending is always based on the total amount of mana you have at your disposal, including all future use of timers, so it should usually end at around zero.

Unfortunately in this case, your mana pool wasn't sufficient enough to support even the efficient cycle. I noticed you had no shadow priest selected. What the spreadsheet is telling you with that -20,000 mana is really that you should NEVER use 48/0/13 with this group comp, because you won't be able to support it. Similiarly if fire and frost builds go oom, it will still tell you the dps you would have done if you didn't, and how much mana you'd be indebted at the end of the fight. That gives you the target for how much mana you need to regain to make that particular spec work.

I added some shadow priest regen which shows more favorable results, like so. http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...9b3fb715aeed85

Beregon · 05/29/08, 12:15 PM

http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...3369068ed10430

That makes more sense to me now and I'm seeing the mana gems again as well. It appears that even though it will at times allow mana deficit to happen it is still choosing spells in the 40/18/3 and 40/0/13 specs based on mana level since it starts off with AB spam but brings in other spells at low mana.

Is there a reason for leaving out 40/21/0 and 33/28/0? The theorycraft I have seen suggests both those specs do better than 40/18/3 despite needing to make up with gear the loss of +hit for Fire.

Also, POM and Cold Snap show up in the Cast Sequence, but it would be nice to see Combustion and Icy Veins there as well.

Thanks again for all your great work on this!

cdutka · 05/29/08, 1:34 PM

Hey Vontre,

I would love to use your tool, however the data seems to be always off due to the limited spec selection, I was wondering if you could add either the ability to put in your spec like your spread sheet or add the following frost spec.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

Thanks for all the hard work on all these great tools.

Cryic · 05/29/08, 4:37 PM

Possible Bug:

When importing my toon from the armory, all the gems are assigned correctly except for the wrist for [Bracers of the Tempest], which have no gem socketed (they have a Red +12 spell damage).

drmadison · 05/29/08, 6:28 PM

I gotta say, just found out about magegraf.com last night and have been playing around with it all morning...great stuff.

I'm not sure if this was covered in the previous replies (didn't see it) but the 0/40/21 mage spec (listed as fire/ice block) doesn't seem to use dual-icy veins looking at the graph. Wouldn't that go a good way towards improving the listed DPS for this spec? Personal experience by myself and other mages in my guild have seen pretty decent DPS improvements by switching to this (2 icy veins inside of molten fury especially).

Am I just misreading the graphs or is this indeed not accounted for in the simulation of that spec?

Asgor · 05/30/08, 1:13 AM

Originally Posted by TheSorcerer

There is a problem with german Umlauts in the magegraf tool. I cannot get profiles from the armory if either the user or the realm name contains umlauts.
[...]

I can confirm this problem. I, too, am unable to import my character from the Armory. System is Mac OS X 10.5, localized to Eng(US). Tried both Firefox and Safari.

One workaround is to enter the information manually and then to bookmark the URL you get once you've hit 'submit'. As far as I can tell, all the entered information is stored in the URL in a hashed manner.

Yukka · 05/30/08, 9:54 AM

items missing : Timbal's Focusing Crystal And Destruction Halo Goggles
Missing metas : [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] and [Swift Starfire Diamond]

I know you said aff sucks and all but i noticed somethings for us diehard aff locks still out there: no option to use Dark Pact, No UA in cast sequence is available

Also there is no where in your cast squences to add which curse you are casting so they are all off because there isn't an place holder for COS, COE, COR, or even COex (in a few cases mostly vash)

Thanks for the work i LOVE not having to manually import equipment.