Can anyone report on DPCT values for the arcane spell cycle? I'm looking at a priority system rather than a cast cycle system. After my awesome-looking ABar/Fireball combination launches (which I've lovingly named the Super Haduken), MBAM normally comes up and I'm not sure whick spell to cast next. Know MBAM out-damages fireball on the same cast time, but how does it compare to ABar? My testing puts it as 'close', and my gut tells me the best thing is blow the MBAM once the current GCD is up then ABar then back to my super hadukens (As an aside - it is very easy to hit ABar at the last 40-30% of a cast and have both spells launch simultaneously; you really don't need to spam, its an easy window to hit).
Also; does clearcasting/potency change priorities? With fireball having a much nicer damage ratio but MBAM eating into your mana pool it would be nice to see DPCT/MPD under normal, clearcast, potency and both to work out the best priority.
If I understand you right, then these are the numbers from my "realistic" arcane build:
Someone told me something clever a few pages ago, and that would be to use the ABAM as soon as possible, because then your next FB or AB could proc a new MB since i have forgotten to update my browser there is a better explanation a few posts before me
Last edited by Søndag : 10/07/08 at 10:09 AM.
Reason: to slow :P
1) Tailoring still sucks Lightweave Embroidery - Spell - World of Warcraft still is a 50% proc on a 45s cooldown.
Assuming 50% holy crit rate, hit cap and all raid buffs (i.e. things that won't really happen), we get at most:
1100*1.13*1.03*(1+50%*0.5)*1.03 = 1648 damage every 45 seconds (base*CoE*Fero.Insp.*Crit*Arcane Instability or Playing with Fire).
That's 37 DPS at most. In the most biased best-case assumptions.
The alternative is a +23 haste rating enchant.
That's 0.7% additional haste. It flat out beats the Tailoring specific alternative when you break past somewhere past 5250 DPS.
Everything else made by Tailoring is BoE, the only real advantages you have are cheaper (not better) leg enchants and a Flying Carpet.
Which is quite awesome, but offers a flat zero benefit for raid performance.
2) 4/5 Frostfire sucks too
According to some numbers I was given, it looks like the 5% crit bonus is of the same type and additive with Burnout/Ice Shards/Spell Power.
So the final crit multiplier with 4T7 seems to be (1 + 0.545[CSD]*(1+0.5[Spell Power/Burnout]+1[Ice Shards]+0.05[4T7]))*1.4[Ignite]
For 50% crit, this means it's a 0.9%-1.1% DPS increase for almost any spec one could come up with.
Surely you would choose MBAM as you risk another proc if you cast ABar and have then effectively wasted one? Also, if I've been following the discussions here correctly, then potency used on a MBAM spell provides the opportunity of an arcane 'shatter combo' if you cast ABar at the end of your MBAM cast.
That 'shatter combo' can be achieved with any 2 spells cast close together under Potency.
Would imply that the highest damage increase is gained from replacing the Fireball with MBAM (Unless PoM/pyro is ready, in which case PoM/pyro, ABar, MBAM, ABar is ideal). Does this rule hold true with arcane Potency up? Would MBAM/ABar still do better damage than Fireball/ABar or Fireball/MBAM under +30% crit chance?
Edit: Table maths tells me the fireball is dead weight in that cycle under any circumstance, and any opportunity to replace it should be taken (MBAM, PoM/pyro, etc)
This was an artefact of double dipping, I've seen misses with Ffb on the dummies.
Getting hit capped is very easy between Misery, Talents, a Dranei aura, hit food / gems.
I verified this with the boss target dummy in Darnassus, I have 11.44% hit.
200Ffb, 148 hit, 52 crit. So 0 resist on the target dummy.
To verify that the target dummy is not bugged, I casted 200 scorch on the same target.
200scorch,130 hit, 64 crit, 6 miss.
Overall, it will seems that Ffb double-dipped into elemental precision. Not sure if this is a bug or intended behavior. This will change the relative weight of hit for a frostfire build pass 11%, as hit will affect only scorch and pyroblast.
As an aside, an offhand comment made by Ghostcrawler in response to Balance tree bloat issues just verified that dual-specs are NOT forgotten, and there will be more details coming at Blizzcon. (Source, look at his last paragraph).
This was discussed a while back, especially in regards to Frost for raiding builds vs. PvP
To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.
That 'shatter combo' can be achieved with any 2 spells cast close together under Potency.
Would imply that the highest damage increase is gained from replacing the Fireball with MBAM (Unless PoM/pyro is ready, in which case PoM/pyro, ABar, MBAM, ABar is ideal). Does this rule hold true with arcane Potency up? Would MBAM/ABar still do better damage than Fireball/ABar or Fireball/MBAM under +30% crit chance?
Edit: Table maths tells me the fireball is dead weight in that cycle under any circumstance, and any opportunity to replace it should be taken (MBAM, PoM/pyro, etc)
Fireball looks like a filler which should be replaced when possible yes, and each time you replace it you also have the possibility to not loose an ingnite tick :P
Fireball looks like a filler which should be replaced when possible yes, and each time you replace it you also have the possibility to not loose an ingnite tick :P
The arcane rotation doesn't lose ignite ticks as far as I'm aware. ABar doesn't cause ignite and and unless you're quite well hasted your next fireball won't hit within 4 seconds.
The arcane rotation doesn't lose ignite ticks as far as I'm aware. ABar doesn't cause ignite and and unless you're quite well hasted your next fireball won't hit within 4 seconds.
I guess you are right, that would require quite some haste.. or som unlucky times pom pyro's with a trailing fireball.. but that would be easy to avoid too since abar i up again after the pyro.
The arcane rotation doesn't lose ignite ticks as far as I'm aware. ABar doesn't cause ignite and and unless you're quite well hasted your next fireball won't hit within 4 seconds.
It's actually not that much haste to begin your concern over losing ignite ticks. The 3.0 second cast time of fireball and 1.5 gcd of ABar means you'd only need 4.5/4 = 12.5% haste, and considering that arcane specs get 6% haste from NWP, you only really need 6.5% from gear, which is easily obtainable.
It's actually not that much haste to begin your concern over losing ignite ticks. The 3.0 second cast time of fireball and 1.5 gcd of ABar means you'd only need 4.5/4 = 12.5% haste, and considering that arcane specs get 6% haste from NWP, you only really need 6.5% from gear, which is easily obtainable.
True, but aren't ignite ticks normally lost when 2 fire spells crit at roughly the same time? To my knowledge fire spells cast under normal circumstances stand more chance of gaining ignite damage than losing it.
Isn't the only case where you could lose ignite damage with the arcane/fire spec the sequence fireball, abar, pom-pyro, and only if the abar gcd is shorter than the fireball travel time?
Or have I utterly misunderstood how the ignite bug works?
Isn't the only case where you could lose ignite damage with the arcane/fire spec the sequence fireball, abar, pom-pyro, and only if the abar gcd is shorter than the fireball travel time?
Or have I utterly misunderstood how the ignite bug works?
Looks about right. And in that case unless I'm mistaken the Pyro ignite would take priority. For the record, The travel time of ABar at 36 yards is sufficient that you can launch that pyro before the ABar+fireball connect (they have the same travel time).
Its actually quite a dangerous combo; Potency goes up and you get ABar+fireball under it, then you PoM pyro and get pyro+ABar under it... the pyro will launch a split second before the fireball lands assuming maximum range and optimal casting. If this shows a significant loss of ignite damage would it be worth waiting a split second for the fireball to actually land before lobbing the PoM/pyro, in order to ensure proper ignite behaviour?
1) Tailoring still sucks Lightweave Embroidery - Spell - World of Warcraft still is a 50% proc on a 45s cooldown.
Assuming 50% holy crit rate, hit cap and all raid buffs (i.e. things that won't really happen), we get at most:
1100*1.13*1.03*(1+50%*0.5)*1.03 = 1648 damage every 45 seconds (base*CoE*Fero.Insp.*Crit*Arcane Instability or Playing with Fire).
That's 37 DPS at most. In the most biased best-case assumptions.
The alternative is a +23 haste rating enchant.
That's 0.7% additional haste. It flat out beats the Tailoring specific alternative when you break past somewhere past 5250 DPS.
Everything else made by Tailoring is BoE, the only real advantages you have are cheaper (not better) leg enchants and a Flying Carpet.
Which is quite awesome, but offers a flat zero benefit for raid performance.
What about instanced/raid tailor only crafted items?
Professions interest me a lot since drums are being nerfed (although I am not getting tinnitus on PTR so are they still getting nerfed?) so i need a second.
Alchemy gives 60ish spell damage (flask bonus) and a trinket (probably rubbish). Blacksmith seems a decent choice with 3 sockets which also means about 60ish extra damage.
Enchanting is only 2 ring enchants as far as i know so that is a puny 40ish dmg.
Jewelcrafting only has the JC only gems so its probably about 10-20 dmg.
I have alchemy at the moment so I was thinking tailoring but it would need to be competitive with the other professions.
Isn't the only case where you could lose ignite damage with the arcane/fire spec the sequence fireball, abar, pom-pyro, and only if the abar gcd is shorter than the fireball travel time?
Or have I utterly misunderstood how the ignite bug works?
You wouldn't get an ignite bug with this. The ignite bug happens when two *fire* spells crit at the same time. In the case you mentioned, ABar and fireball might crit at the same time, but pyro also has travel time, so it would be impossible to get the ignite bug with a gcd between the fireball cast and the pyro cast.
The ignite bug (primarily) is showing up in fire specs with fireball + hotstreaked pyro, since they both have roughly the same travel time and leave your character at roughly the same time. It also occurs when you scorch + fireblast. I believe it may also occur with fireball, scorch back to back crits, but unsure.
The only reason would see ignite bugs with an arcane build is if for some reason you did fireball, abar, fireblast, which I don't really see you ever doing (unless you are the move after you cast fireball maybe?)
What about instanced/raid tailor only crafted items?
Professions interest me a lot since drums are being nerfed (although I am not getting tinnitus on PTR so are they still getting nerfed?) so i need a second.
Alchemy gives 60ish spell damage (flask bonus) and a trinket (probably rubbish). Blacksmith seems a decent choice with 3 sockets which also means about 60ish extra damage.
Enchanting is only 2 ring enchants as far as i know so that is a puny 40ish dmg.
Jewelcrafting only has the JC only gems so its probably about 10-20 dmg.
I have alchemy at the moment so I was thinking tailoring but it would need to be competitive with the other professions.
Using non-epic gems, all non-gathering professions give almost the same bonuses except for tailoring and engineering. The breakdown in what they give is more complicated, especially with jewelcrafting, blacksmithing, and epic gems.
What about instanced/raid tailor only crafted items?
Professions interest me a lot since drums are being nerfed (although I am not getting tinnitus on PTR so are they still getting nerfed?) so i need a second.
Alchemy gives 60ish spell damage (flask bonus) and a trinket (probably rubbish). Blacksmith seems a decent choice with 3 sockets which also means about 60ish extra damage.
Enchanting is only 2 ring enchants as far as i know so that is a puny 40ish dmg.
Jewelcrafting only has the JC only gems so its probably about 10-20 dmg.
I have alchemy at the moment so I was thinking tailoring but it would need to be competitive with the other professions.
The important thing about the 3 JC Gems is the fact that they're prismatic; While some chumps are stuck with damage/spirit in their blue socks, I can have my raw +damage gems in that socket and still make the bonus, or put +hit in them leaving me free to load my yellow socks with haste. You can't just compare the +damage dragon's eye to the epic +damage gem and draw the difference from that, you have to consider the flexibility allowed from prismatics (also, with prismatics in your gear you can make meta requirements basically for free).
edit:
The only reason would see ignite bugs with an arcane build is if for some reason you did fireball, abar, fireblast, which I don't really see you ever doing (unless you are the move after you cast fireball maybe?)
I've actually been playing with this cycle a little on the PTR. The advantage is that all 3 spells sit under the Potency buff and getting triple crits off it is easy and amusing. I've not yet tracked ignite damage because I'm not on my usual PC here, but I suspect its suffering as a result. Also, you need to be talented for 26yard fireblasts in order to land it during fireball's travel time (my spec dropped arcane +range for fire+range but other than that it was a standard 53/18)
Last edited by Jonny_Monroe : 10/07/08 at 3:18 PM.
Reason: the spellings
What about instanced/raid tailor only crafted items?
Professions interest me a lot since drums are being nerfed (although I am not getting tinnitus on PTR so are they still getting nerfed?) so i need a second.
Alchemy gives 60ish spell damage (flask bonus) and a trinket (probably rubbish). Blacksmith seems a decent choice with 3 sockets which also means about 60ish extra damage.
Enchanting is only 2 ring enchants as far as i know so that is a puny 40ish dmg.
Jewelcrafting only has the JC only gems so its probably about 10-20 dmg.
I have alchemy at the moment so I was thinking tailoring but it would need to be competitive with the other professions.
Jewelcrafting is actually one of the better professions at the moment in terms of pure damage perks, especially for casters who are going after the CSD metagem. Blacksmiths only get 2 blacksmith only sockets (bracers/gloves). The alchemy bonus is 37 SP, the enchanting bonus is 38 sp.
All this and more is outlined in this post in the WotLK profession thread.
Gets you flashy pop-ups for any kind of proc and any class. It been maintained pretty well throughout beta.
Pyros, Frostbite, Brain Freeze, Fingers, Barrage, you can't miss them with this mod.
THANK YOU, this was a godsend last night. I'd been having problems seeing my hot streak procs, this really helped me.
As a note, I ran 10 man again last night with some people from Vox, we killed Maexxna, DK wing, and did Heigen before we lost a few people, mana wasn't much of an issue, as long as you use your gem at <4,000>...it's really group dependent, with the makeup that we had I wasn't having as much mana difficulties, outside of Maexxna and a lot of AoE spells(damnit, I used Evocation 2 seconds before web wrap, there goes that mana regen ability).
I ran the 0-53-18 FFB build. I really do need to get the combat logs parsed.
You wouldn't get an ignite bug with this. The ignite bug happens when two *fire* spells crit at the same time. In the case you mentioned, ABar and fireball might crit at the same time, but pyro also has travel time, so it would be impossible to get the ignite bug with a gcd between the fireball cast and the pyro cast.
The ignite bug (primarily) is showing up in fire specs with fireball + hotstreaked pyro, since they both have roughly the same travel time and leave your character at roughly the same time. It also occurs when you scorch + fireblast. I believe it may also occur with fireball, scorch back to back crits, but unsure.
The only reason would see ignite bugs with an arcane build is if for some reason you did fireball, abar, fireblast, which I don't really see you ever doing (unless you are the move after you cast fireball maybe?)
You forgot living bomb explosion + any fire spell landing near the same time. Also happens on spells without travel time because the ignite bug is awesome.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Jewelcrafting only has the JC only gems so its probably about 10-20 dmg.
Its actually quite a bit more than that. We get three gems, yes, but they count for more than that. Just for reference, the runed dragons eye are 32 spell dmg a piece. The Epic runed gems are 23 dmg each. Not sure if those can be perfected, but lets just assume neither of them can for the time being. That right there is 9 extra dmg per gem, so 27 dmg. But lets not forget, the dragons eye's also count as prismatic gems. That means you no longer have to use that crappy blue gem to activate your meta gem. It also allows for you to put dragons eyes in other blue sockets to help reach the socket bonuses.
Being a JC on live, this is a huge improvement from what we get currently, a measly +2 dmg from one gem and a BoP sunwell trash drop (i suppose you could say trinkets, but the caster one is pretty awful). There are some bop trinkets (with sockets i believe?), but they aren't that great right now, perhaps they will be upgraded as time goes on like the alchemist stones though. And there is always that possibility that we will get BoP jewelry again, though right now everything I have seen is BoE.
Of course, I may be a bit biased, because I really, really don't want to level another crafting profession again. Tailoring also gets better leg enchants don't they? Or are those not BoP? Or maybe I'm thinking LW. Has there been any BoP epic profession patterns discovered on beta?
EDIT: And apparently I lose at the posting game. Boo for taking too long to post.
Tailoring also gets better leg enchants don't they? Or are those not BoP?
Sadly, they are no better than the BoE ones, they're just a lot cheaper to make in terms of raw materials. Basically comes down to 7 Motes instead of 8 Primals and a Nether (equivalent names from Live, they're called something else in WotLK). A lot cheaper, but of no use to the high end min/maxer.
I believe I have fixed my simcraft for lvl 70 specs. Arcane mages are doing a proper focus magic circle jerk, support classes are in there, just not showing (because they are level 80, just used to debuff the boss / buff the mages). Fire mages are not scorching because frost mages are keeping up their debuff. I used stats from my 40/0/21 mage (4/5 MH 5/9 BT ) as if I regemmed for hit.
Here are the exact specs I used for the top Four: Mage_520900_FB_Abar_AP Mage_511000_FB_ABar Mage_005308 Mage_005011
10/07/08, 9:56 AM
