Improved Blizzard (in conjunction with Frostbite) is only really an issue if you plan on doing heavy AoE sessions as re-herding the fragmented pack is annoying. If however you use Blizzard situationally, then it's usually fine.
For the AoE grinding crowd: If you go with 3/3 imp blizzard, the overall slow (thanks to CttB) is now 85%, so the pack really doesn't separate much even taking frostbite into account.
Currently there is a bug with Blizzard and Fingers of Frost where FoF won't proc on Blizzard unless you also have Frostbite, which makes Frostbite pretty much a prereq for making Blizzard dps its best. Considering AoE tanking is the way to run instances nowadays, I highly recommend taking 1/3 Imp Blizzard and 3/3 Frostbite while leveling (if the bug isn't fixed, in which case Frostbite really becomes optional) so you're at your best in the instances you'll inevitably run while leveling.
Deep Freeze is really pretty pointless for PvE without damage--it lets you freeze something that's already frozen, and leaves you with 3.5 seconds of freeze left after your GCD, time for...one shatter combo, exactly what you would've already done to the frozen mob anyway. Shattered Barrier isn't much worth it for PvE either, you already have tons of outs as a frost mage if anything ever reaches you in the first place. I'm on a PvE server, though--on PvP under threat of constant gank Deep Freeze and Shattered Barrier probably become invaluable, and honestly I'd drop Elemental Precision for those and pick EP up at levels 71-73. You probably already have quite a bit of hit on your gear as it is (I'm assuming most of the EJ forum audience are raiders) so can handle +3 mobs with ease--getting EP as you get your first 3 levels makes up for your hit rating decaying as you level.
Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe
After my time on the Beta I'm quite sure I will be arcane for leveling. I find instant invis to be far more effective an escape tool than Ice Block (I'm spec'd for 1 second invis on beta; is instant still bugged?). The burst damage provided by MBAM is sickeningly good and opening a fight with Fireball+ABar+Slow, if you're fast, will get all 3 to hit about the same time and under the benefit of TtW; its a very potent opener.
Instant invis hasn't been bugged for several builds now.
Are you saying that Torment the Weak actually changes the damage of spells already in the air, unlike every other damage mechanic in the game? If that's true, it's very interesting, and very odd, since in every other case spells choose how much damage they are going to do when they leave your hands. Casting Slow on the mob after Fireball and ABar should result in the FB and ABar doing normal unmodified damage. Needs further testing.
This rises an interesting question about invis. Just like with iceblock I have sometimes gained a message that I´m hit for damage but it doesn´t "land" For example I´ve had the combat log register a melee blow from Illidan on a wipe but it happened almoust simultaniously with invis fade just turning me invisible and I end up not taking the 15k swing registered in the combat log. Up till now this has been very random since you can´t time the 5 sec fade with a raid wipe so exactly as to predict exactly when the boss will have worked his way through people to you. But with insta invis this will be as easy to learn the timing of as iceblock. So... does insta invis work exactly like ice block in the comunication between client and server or will it be trickier to walk the line and dodging damage so close on landing that it´s in your combatlog?
This rises an interesting question about invis. Just like with iceblock I have sometimes gained a message that I´m hit for damage but it doesn´t "land" For example I´ve had the combat log register a melee blow from Illidan on a wipe but it happened almoust simultaniously with invis fade just turning me invisible and I end up not taking the 15k swing registered in the combat log. Up till now this has been very random since you can´t time the 5 sec fade with a raid wipe so exactly as to predict exactly when the boss will have worked his way through people to you. But with insta invis this will be as easy to learn the timing of as iceblock. So... does insta invis work exactly like ice block in the comunication between client and server or will it be trickier to walk the line and dodging damage so close on landing that it´s in your combatlog?
I've yet to see an example of damage landing so close to invis ticking over that it goes into my log but not affecting me. It might be that its such a rare event that its not happened; more likely its because i'm not looking out for it. Knowing that invis isn't bugged anymore I'm going to go spec for intant and play with it now. I suspect it'll work much like vanish does - basically canceling all incoming damage (including shots still in mid-air).
Are you saying that Torment the Weak actually changes the damage of spells already in the air, unlike every other damage mechanic in the game? If that's true, it's very interesting, and very odd, since in every other case spells choose how much damage they are going to do when they leave your hands. Casting Slow on the mob after Fireball and ABar should result in the FB and ABar doing normal unmodified damage. Needs further testing.
I honestly wasn't watching too closely and may well be mistaken on this point. I was under the impression that damage modifying BUFFS applied on spell cast, but damage modifying DEBUFFS applied on spell hit.
Regardless, I am very much enjoying Arcane for leveling and do plan to stick to it. the high mobility and excelent controlled burst match my preferred playstyle perfectly. Oh, and stacked spell resistance does often come in handy.
Deep Freeze is really pretty pointless for PvE without damage
Have to agree with that, though you have taken Brain Freeze and I'm still not convinced on that myself, as mana is not really an issue with frost and it's still a GCD for a completely untalented fireball.
Have to agree with that, though you have taken Brain Freeze and I'm still not convinced on that myself, as mana is not really an issue with frost and it's still a GCD for a completely untalented fireball.
I found the mana savings to be useful when leveling, for instance chain-pulling as well as questing with less downtime to eat pies (especially the bugged level 70 conjured pies--the ones you get at 74-75--that have a one minute hidden cooldown on their use--these can be VERY frustrating). It's also just a little bit of added fun, and it does make for stronger burst damage than an ice lance on a shatter combo. Granted those 3 points are among the first that can be dropped, though; I'm actually a fan of Imp Cone of Cold for soloing (makes for a nice powerful killshot on something that's actually reached you) and that's a reasonable option as well.
Honestly frost is full of fun options, many of which are just that: Optional. It's just too bad the "best" play in terms of dps tends to boil down to ignoring them all in favor of spamming frostbolts.
That would imply you have 0% crit raid buffed. Rerun your numbers at ~50% crit, it's much less by then.
Which is also one of the reasons why crit is so mediocre in general.
With patch 3.0.2 dropping tomorrow, I'm curious as to what the consensus spec is for 3.0.2 raiding, particularly in SWP (my guild just downed Kalecgos for the first time last night!).
From what I've read in the thread, the consensus seems to be 11/50 or 50/11. Below are links to what I think are the two builds...
One question about fire points... I'm assuming 3/3 Playing with Fire is better than 5/5 Burnout? Also, from what I've read, Burning Soul no longer seems necessary due to way the way threat mechanics have changed, hence 2 in World in Flames instead.
Does anyone from the PTR have information on mana issues in 3.0.2? I would assume if mana is an issue, then 11/50 makes more sense, otherwise 50/11 makes more sense.
Also, what is the new hit cap rating with tomorrow's patch?
I've yet to see an example of damage landing so close to invis ticking over that it goes into my log but not affecting me. It might be that its such a rare event that its not happened; more likely its because i'm not looking out for it. Knowing that invis isn't bugged anymore I'm going to go spec for intant and play with it now. I suspect it'll work much like vanish does - basically canceling all incoming damage (including shots still in mid-air).
I had this happen last night on Gurtogg Bloodboil. I hit Invis (to drop aggro) as I was moving back to take my bloodboil. The invis activated as I saw the bloodboil heading in my direction. I did NOT take any dmg nor was debuffed. As far as I can tell, no one else got my BB (which, if I am mistaken, I have some apologizing to do!).
It would be very interesting if the invis mechanic could be used in such a way to consistently effective.
Honestly frost is full of fun options, many of which are just that: Optional.
I know frost of old as that's how I levelled to 60 on release but I have been Arcane/Frost since TBC and so am still very fond of Arcane as well as having some good memories of Frost. When the expansion hits I will probably level/instance as Arcane but have a heavy frost spec on the secondary talent switch for when I want the extra control for specific encounters or just to solo the group quests.
In my experience, invisibility is more effective at avoiding incoming damage/debuffs than vanish. Vanish is so ridiculously broken it's not even funny. I pretty much stopped hoping for actually getting to use an opener during vanish, it's mostly a snare breaker now.
Invisibility, on the other hand, has always allowed me to avoid boss attacks and whatnot. Last ZA at the eagle boss I got the storm debuff on me precisely when I went invis. Cancelled the debuff altogheter and the storm disappeared.
I've yet to see an example of damage landing so close to invis ticking over that it goes into my log but not affecting me. It might be that its such a rare event that its not happened; more likely its because i'm not looking out for it. Knowing that invis isn't bugged anymore I'm going to go spec for intant and play with it now. I suspect it'll work much like vanish does - basically canceling all incoming damage (including shots still in mid-air).
I have actually had this happen once or twice on wipes as well. So im with you in hoping that instant invis will work like vanish and cancel the damage incoming.
With patch 3.0.2 dropping tomorrow, I'm curious as to what the consensus spec is for 3.0.2 raiding, particularly in SWP (my guild just downed Kalecgos for the first time last night!).
From what I've read in the thread, the consensus seems to be 11/50 or 50/11. Below are links to what I think are the two builds...
One question about fire points... I'm assuming 3/3 Playing with Fire is better than 5/5 Burnout? Also, from what I've read, Burning Soul no longer seems necessary due to way the way threat mechanics have changed, hence 2 in World in Flames instead.
Does anyone from the PTR have information on mana issues in 3.0.2? I would assume if mana is an issue, then 11/50 makes more sense, otherwise 50/11 makes more sense.
Also, what is the new hit cap rating with tomorrow's patch?
Feedback appreciated!
This spec: 50/11
Will give you higher DPS than the one you listed above (at least what I've gathered from these forums in the past months). Unless you want the AoE spells, you're better off without them for single target dps (boss fights). Living bomb rotation is still more DPS, but since only one mage can use it you are better off assuming someone else will pick it up. Also, you are right on burning soul, it's not needed anymore from my tests on the PTR.
Mana wasn't an issue for me in 25 man raiding as of 3.0.2 (just switch to mage armor if you are having issues), things die so much faster :P
The hit cap for tomorrow should be 17% (instead of 16% as was before the patch). This should be ~177 hit rating with EP, last I checked.
This spec: 50/11
Will give you higher DPS than the one you listed above (at least what I've gathered from these forums in the past months). Unless you want the AoE spells, you're better off without them for single target dps (boss fights). Living bomb rotation is still more DPS, but since only one mage can use it you are better off assuming someone else will pick it up. Also, you are right on burning soul, it's not needed anymore from my tests on the PTR.
Mana wasn't an issue for me in 25 man raiding as of 3.0.2 (just switch to mage armor if you are having issues), things die so much faster :P
The hit cap for tomorrow should be 17% (instead of 16% as was before the patch). This should be ~177 hit rating with EP, last I checked.
Thanks for the response. I think I'll probably end up sacrificing one point in Burnout and World in Flames in order to have Dragon's Breath and Blastwave, especially if my guild continues to clear Hyjal where AoE is necessary for the trash.
Also, for this spec, the best glyph's would be Imp. Scorch and Mana Gem, correct?
ravenndude, in response to your post about 70 scoreboard, and the fact 10/51/0 is better than 0/50/11 by a slight margin, does this take into account the 3% hit from EP you have to compensate in 10/51/0 ?
If I want 4k more health+reslience, I've got my PVP gear. It costs me about 300 spell damage to do that, but I'll still have ~300 more spelldamage than a brand new 70 in blues/greens, and about 2x the health.
The spec I'm going to use does the molten armor/molten shields/impact thing, uses a frostfirebolt for opener and 1.5 second fire spells with impact to hammer the poor schmuck incoming. If it's durable enough to actually reach me it'll have a living bomb ticking and will have to cope with whichever of blast wave or dragon breath or frost nova is up, which means it's gonna eat another couple of 1.5 second spells before it can actually even swing. Melee pulls are going to be a joke.
For ranged attackers, hunter types I do the same thing I do in PVP, blink next to them, dragon breath and set up a fire spell/flameblast combo while it's disoriented. spellcasters....counterspell+dragonbreath = I get a lot more spells off than they do,
Given that I soloed most "kill one big elite" quests, escort quests and "wave attack" quests as fire in BC with far less adequate tools, I'm probably ok on the smaller group quests, especially as my gear is going to be very overpowered for the first few levels. For anything else, I do actually have friends and a wife that also plays.
There is a chance I'll work in some frost talents. I do like permafrost and icy veins on a soloing spec, and improved blizzard is interesting as well. I'll probably add those in when I have a few more talent points, and when I've had a chance to experiment with some of the fire "fringe" talents. (I don't think I'll stick with firestarter, for example, but I want to try it out with an impact build and see how it goes)
If I tried to level with a raid "strip down everything but DPS talents" spec, yeah, fire would kinda suck. Just as I think there are now some decent PVP options for fire and arcane, they both have good leveling opitons too, if you know how to make the most of them.
I dropped burning soul due to the pushback and threat changes, and I decided to give living bomb a whirl but not so much as an AOE, but rather another single-target nuke with DOT.
My biggest concerns from a DPS standpoint are mana efficiency and possible loss of DPS from my current spec with the loss of icy veins.
One advantage to this build is that it is not a substantial change in playstyle from what I am comfortable with now, but with a few other goodies added in such as hot streak/pyroblast, and the living bomb.
I see a lot of you doing builds eliminating dragon's breath and blastwave. Do you guys never use those spells? I still find myself using them on some fights such as the adds on Felmyst, or in PvP situations.
This spec: 50/11
Will give you higher DPS than the one you listed above (at least what I've gathered from these forums in the past months). Unless you want the AoE spells, you're better off without them for single target dps (boss fights). Living bomb rotation is still more DPS, but since only one mage can use it you are better off assuming someone else will pick it up. Also, you are right on burning soul, it's not needed anymore from my tests on the PTR.
Mana wasn't an issue for me in 25 man raiding as of 3.0.2 (just switch to mage armor if you are having issues), things die so much faster :P
The hit cap for tomorrow should be 17% (instead of 16% as was before the patch). This should be ~177 hit rating with EP, last I checked.
Just curious, why would the hit cap change with the patch?
I haven't seen anything in the patch notes that showed a change there.
Just curious, why would the hit cap change with the patch?
I haven't seen anything in the patch notes that showed a change there.
I believe he is referring to the fact that that 1% chance to always miss is no longer there so it will be possible between talents and itemization to have a 100% hit rate.
ravenndude, in response to your post about 70 scoreboard, and the fact 10/51/0 is better than 0/50/11 by a slight margin, does this take into account the 3% hit from EP you have to compensate in 10/51/0 ?
Isn't the 10/51 spec also assuming YOU are the mage to be using the living bomb, which may or not be applicable in your specific raid setting (which I'd assume puts it slightly lower than the 50/11 spec?)?
The spec he listed for 10/51 requires you to be at 17% hit, technically, assuming you are not raid buffed. Here is what he wrote:
Stats for all of the mages are taken from my T5/T6 mage as if I re-gemmed for hit cap:
gear_stamina=409
gear_intellect=419
gear_spirit=204
gear_spell_power=1116
gear_spell_crit_rating=282 gear_spell_hit_rating=176
gear_haste_rating=69
You are sitting at a little under 14% hit with those stats. EP brings you to 17% unbuffed, but this test is assuming you have the extra 3% for free (from a SP or shammy). So if you give the 51/11 spec the extra 3% converted to spell damage / haste, does it still under preform?
Originally Posted by Griggsy
I believe he is referring to the fact that that 1% chance to always miss is no longer there so it will be possible between talents and itemization to have a 100% hit rate.
That's correct... you are gaining the 1% that was previously unobtainable to have a 100% hit rate (instead of the 99% cap from previous patches).
The spec I'm going to use does the molten armor/molten shields/impact thing, uses a frostfirebolt for opener and 1.5 second fire spells with impact to hammer the poor schmuck incoming. If it's durable enough to actually reach me it'll have a living bomb ticking and will have to cope with whichever of blast wave or dragon breath or frost nova is up, which means it's gonna eat another couple of 1.5 second spells before it can actually even swing. Melee pulls are going to be a joke.
The thing is...you have to get to level 75 for FFB. What will you use in the mean time? I don't think anyone here doubts that any spec can be used for leveling. I think what the debate here is: what is most efficient for leveling. To me, that would be frost spec. Low mana consumption + little to no health lost = less time drinking. With the mage armor Glyph I found on beta that my mana would last long enough for the evocate cooldown to come up. The only time I'd drink is if I pulled 2+ mobs at the same time.
But again, it's all about your fun. If you get a kick out of wanding and using staves for leveling, all the power to you.
In all cases, Rhayn, both specs are performing well and there is no big winner.
If you are hit-starved, I think EP/IV is the easiest way to go in order to compensate for the removal of hit cap
If not, then choosing LB or IV is a matter of preference only.
Regarding glyphs, I think there is no other choice than managem + improved scorch
In all cases, Rhayn, both specs are performing well and there is no big winner.
If you are hit-starved, I think EP/IV is the easiest way to go in order to compensate for the removal of hit cap
If not, then choosing LB or IV is a matter of preference only.
Regarding glyphs, I think there is no other choice than managem + improved scorch
I agree there, I think it all depends on your raid makeup / hit needs. 10/51 if you can get the LB off and have the SP / Shammy will give slightly better dps ; 50/11 if you enjoy IV and want to be self sustained (hit cap and no LB).
For glyphs, isn't Mage armor a formidable contender? I would argue it has more use than the extra 200 mana you gain from the gem glyph (the option to switch between the two armors and still have mage armor perform effectively).
Since most raids will have a shadowpriest or elem shaman, 14% hit without EP is enough. I personally will need to get less hit than now, and will be going 11/50. Also, to the poster asking about Burnout vs PwF, Burnout adds more DPS and its drawback is also better than PwF's (at least in SWP) - keep in mind that crit in 3.0.2 will be much higher than now.
1) Elemental precision seems a waste to me at level 70, assuming you have 6% hit or so on your gear, allowing you take down all yellow mobs you see. EP seems to only be useful once that hit gear is replaced by non-hit greens and blues, or for those who want to routinely take on mobs three levels higher.
2) Brain freeze is solid. Even if you aren't hit capped, its dps contribution is on par and its mana efficiency is superior to elemental precision.
3) I still see use for deep freeze. It completely shuts down actions from range attack mobs, unlike frostbite procs, and if you pop icy veins before using it, you will have time to sink in a second ice lance. Additionally, on an FoF proc its a brief CC on a second target during more complex pulls.
4) I don't know how others were playing frost who didn't like it from 60-70. Mobs died in seconds, and I could survive accidental pulls of 5 mobs even with 1/4 health - killing them all, not running away. The only reasons frost doesn't blow fire away in raiding situations right now is because of frostbite/shatter uselessness and fire having the time to stack up scorches on boss fights.
10/13/08, 10:01 AM
