Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Mages

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10/17/08, 4:04 PM   #3476
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
Roywyn's Avatar
 
Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Exellia View Post
Again, how are people finding the usage of armor types on bosses? Do people have to use mage armor, to not go Oom, or can you use Molten all the time? I myself was forced to use Mage armor on brut, to not having to evocate midfight...
Currently, Judgement of Wisdom has a 100% proc rate (intended), but the internal cooldown of 4 seconds is missing (not intended).
To make things more fun, Judgements from two paladins can stack in some occasions (not intended).

If you have mana issues right now, your paladins need to judge more.

Seeing that you have a huge amount of spirit in your amoury, you're better of with Glyphed Mage Armour if you can skip Evocation.
That was my gut feeling and Rawr confirms it. Mage Armour first, then Evocate if it's really needed.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:08 PM   #3477
Ramsden
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Lightbringer
Originally Posted by Exellia View Post
Again, how are people finding the usage of armor types on bosses? Do people have to use mage armor, to not go Oom, or can you use Molten all the time? I myself was forced to use Mage armor on brut, to not having to evocate midfight...
I used Molten on Kalecgos-Muru this week and never evocated once. Do you have Judgement of Wisdom up? On Brut I was at like 50% mana at the end. Remember you can get Mana Tide too. This is 11/50/0 spec, so I guess the few points in clearcasting could help? I'm not really sure.

Honestly the fights are too short to have mana problems. I used Mage Armor on KJ for the minute or so that I actually DPS'ed, the rest of the time I was dragonspec so I'm not sure about it. I would probably recommend using Mage Armor on KJ, just because it's a little longer.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:18 PM   #3478
khemael
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
La Croisade Ecarlate (EU)
Do pets like Water Elemental still don't inherit from player +hit ?

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:18 PM   #3479
Etrius
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Thunderhorn (EU)
Anyone found a good (and working) addon to get a hold of hot streak procs?
I tried classtimers but that didnt work and powerauras is not working either.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:27 PM   #3480
Kludge
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Thunderlord
Originally Posted by Etrius View Post
Anyone found a good (and working) addon to get a hold of hot streak procs?
I tried classtimers but that didnt work and powerauras is not working either.
Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

That is a working version of powerauras. Just type /powa in the console, create a new page, add "Hot Streak", finally give it a graphic/sound notification. It has worked great for me so far.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:32 PM   #3481
Etrius
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Thunderhorn (EU)
Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

That is a working version of powerauras. Just type /powa in the console, create a new page, add "Hot Streak", finally give it a graphic/sound notification. It has worked great for me so far.
Thank you.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 4:50 PM   #3482
Sorbe
Glass Joe
 
Sorbe's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Hyjal
Here's a fun one. With a Deep Arcane spec build (like 58/3/0), you can apparently cap your spell haste.

How you say?

Well, because the primary spell rotation is: Arcane Blast, Arcane Barrage; and the AB debuff duration isn’t affected by spell haste. Thus you can easily get into trouble because the stacking AB debuff gets refreshed with enough spell haste even if you cast ArBr in the meanwhile.

Specifically, when the AB(2.5)+ArBr(1.5) cycle gets down to less than 3.0 seconds, you get AB debuff stacking.
Thus 4.0/3.0 = 1.33 = 33% haste = haste capped. This can easily happen with nominal amounts of gear, procs, and buffs.

After that point, adding more haste is a DPS loss, at least according to Rawr. I believe this is because stacking AB debuffs are just DPM unsustainable, forcing you into lower dps rotations later on. I don’t know if this REALLY turns out to be true given MBAM procs, which could clear the AB debuff.

Interestingly, AB2ArBr actually becomes part of the recommended Rawr spell rotations with high amount of bonus spell haste from procs/buffs. AB2ArBr seems to be LESS dps than ABArBr, because ArBr is that much better DPS than even AB+AB2. I'm still not sure how that one makes any sense at all given that it would ALSO be affected by spell haste capping issue.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 5:43 PM   #3483
Phrygian
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Llane
I'm curious about the variables with people's mana usage. I did brut this week (about 3.7k DPS) using 10/51/0. Used Molten Armor, didn't mana gem, didn't mana pot, didn't evocate, and no innervate. We had 1 Spriest and 1 Ret Pally in the raid, no boomkin, and I didn't have Focus Magic on me. I kept up LB the whole time, didn't time my CDs very well (had no idea how fast the kill was going to be, blew CDs at the start hoping it'd go over 3 mins, it didn't), the kill was 2 minutes 55 seconds. I think with just slightly better CD usage 4k would have been easy. I don't believe I ever got below 50% mana, and I don't believe I ever got within 60% of the tanks threat. Are people with mana issues running different raid comps? No Ret Pally perhaps? Seems like JoW is huge.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 5:43 PM   #3484
Jonny_Monroe
Don Flamenco
 
Jonny_Monroe's Avatar
 
Draenei Priest
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Originally Posted by Sorbe View Post
Here's a fun one. With a Deep Arcane spec build (like 58/3/0), you can apparently cap your spell haste.

How you say?

Well, because the primary spell rotation is: Arcane Blast, Arcane Barrage; and the AB debuff duration isn’t affected by spell haste. Thus you can easily get into trouble because the stacking AB debuff gets refreshed with enough spell haste even if you cast ArBr in the meanwhile.

Specifically, when the AB(2.5)+ArBr(1.5) cycle gets down to less than 3.0 seconds, you get AB debuff stacking.
Thus 4.0/3.0 = 1.33 = 33% haste = haste capped. This can easily happen with nominal amounts of gear, procs, and buffs.

After that point, adding more haste is a DPS loss, at least according to Rawr. I believe this is because stacking AB debuffs are just DPM unsustainable, forcing you into lower dps rotations later on. I don’t know if this REALLY turns out to be true given MBAM procs, which could clear the AB debuff.

Interestingly, AB2ArBr actually becomes part of the recommended Rawr spell rotations with high amount of bonus spell haste from procs/buffs. AB2ArBr seems to be LESS dps than ABArBr, because ArBr is that much better DPS than even AB+AB2. I'm still not sure how that one makes any sense at all given that it would ALSO be affected by spell haste capping issue.
Testing this with heroism and (obviously) netherwind presence + 3% haste on gear, at the theramore target dummies, I was not able to reliably refresh the AB debuff. The cast cycle got down to under 3 seconds but the result was that I was simply waiting on the ABar cooldown every cycle; and even hitting it perfectly was not sufficient to reliably keep up AB debuff. Blizzard should really consider a minor glyph to push the AB debuff 0.2 seconds longer (possibly with a negative effect to balance it).

On prince in karazan as arcane (58/3) I finished the fight with 95% mana - thats with glyphed mage armour but no gems/evoc (I had a ret paladin who was keeping JoW and Replenish up througout). We blew through AP and heroism as well. If this turns out to be a common situation I will be dropping Mage Armour in favour of Molten Armour.

OMNOMNOM.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 6:05 PM   #3485
Kludge
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Thunderlord
Latest changes.

Mage (Skills List / Talent Calc. (9095))
Skills
Arcane
Arcane Blast mana cost has been lowered from 9% of base mana to 8% of base mana.
Arcane Explosion mana cost has been lowered from 30% of base mana to 27% of base mana for higher ranks. From 25% of base mana to 22% of base mana for lower ranks.
Arcane Missiles mana cost has been lowered from 34% of base mana to 31% of base mana for higher ranks. From 41% of base mana to 37% of base mana for lower ranks.
Fire
Fireball mana cost has been lowered from 21% of base mana to 19% of base mana for higher ranks. From 25% of base mana to 23% of base mana for lower ranks.
Frostfire Bolt mana cost has been lowered from 16% of base mana to 14% of base mana.
Living Bomb mana cost has been lowered from 31% of base mana to 25% of base mana.
Frost
Frostbolt mana cost has been lowered from 15% of base mana to 13% of base mana for higher ranks. From 18% of base mana to 16% of base mana for lower ranks.

Talents
Fire
Flame Throwing doesn't affect Frostfire Bolt anymore.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 6:33 PM   #3486
Kavan
Bald Bull
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Misch View Post
I've just about twisted my brain into a noodle trying to understand the relative value of Crit for Deep Fire, how it relates to Hot Streak Procs, and how the relative values between SD/Crit/Haste fluctuate at any given Crit rate.

At 50% crit, there's a 1-in-4 chance of casting 2x FB crits in a row.

Yet at 60% crit, there's a 1-in-3 chance of [Proccing HS].

That's a 33% increase in the HS-proc rate for just a 10% increase in Crit rate.

What are truly difficult to model (I would think) are the HS double-taps (3xFBCrits+2xHS-Pyros) and its bearing on the relative values of Crit/SD/Haste. Tell me Rawr takes all this into account and I will leave it at that, but I dunno if it does.
Rawr models all dynamic cycles as markov chains, assuming a continuous model, I'm not solving the discrete version. For simple Fireball spam with Hot Streak procs this is just the c*c/(1+c) model that was posted in this thread. It is a bit more complicated for the cycles that also include Scorch and Living Bomb. You can see the relevant math in the source code (Rawr - Source Code). Search for FBScLBPyro for an example. If anyone finds any bugs or has a better model feel free to report it.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 6:47 PM   #3487
Oosaioo
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Uther
I see there are many threads regarding arcane spell rotations, just curious to know anyone's thoughts on a deep fire spec, and if living bomb is viable within the rotation?

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 7:06 PM   #3488
solbergb
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Earthen Ring
The c*c/1+c model holds up very well versus the data I generated, not just for fireball spam but for spam of any of the spells allowed. It's also perfectly good for a scorch/fireball rotation, since nothing in that doesn't proc the buff.

For a living bomb rotation, or something more complex it's still pretty easy to work out the impact, at least to 1-2 significant digits. Well easy with a spreadsheet anyway. The approach is something like this.

1. Pick a number of castings for your chosen rotation. I'll do a simple example to illustrate what I'm talking about, with numbers chosen for math convenience. Lets say that whatever your combination of haste+latency you can manage reliably 9 fireballs and one scorch in 30 seconds.

2. Calculate the % chance of hot streak. for that rotation . Lets pretend it is 50% crit rate, so 1 in 6 castings will proc hot streatk.

3. For ease of math, lets expand ths to 6 cycles, ie 180 seconds, 60 castings. You'd expect to get 10 hot streak procs, so opportunity to cast 10 pyroblasts in there. Now we're looking at ~15 seconds more casting so you should work in another scorch too, just to make sure the stack stays up. Call it 20 seconds total with extra lag from trying to chaincast instant spells and interruptions to your flow by tracking hotstreaks. (a skilled player could do better, but we're working with round numbers here)

4. add up the total damage of casting of 54 fireballs, 7 scorches and 10 pyroblasts, factoring in the effect of crits but NOT the dots. You can include ignite damage in this as it is based on the crit damage.

5. Divide the total damage by 200 seconds for a base DPS figure without dots.

6. Assume the fireball DOT is running continuously. Just divide total damage by 8 and add to the base DPS figure.

7. with 10 pyroblasts+12 second dot, we have in theory 120 seconds of dot uptime, or 12 out of 20 seconds have the DOT running. Take total dot damage and divide by 20 and add it to the base DPS figure+fireball DOT dps. If you want to get fancy, this should actually be reduced a bit, as some pyroblasts will "clump" within a 12 second window and it's unlikely to be up the entire 120 seconds.

You can add a bit more precision to this estimate by simulating the scorch rampup properly. Beyond that the inaccuracies in this estimate are probably larger than any further precision you'd apply.

Now we want to add living bomb to the above? No big deal. Work out how much time the GCD's for living bomb add to the equation, figure out how many you are going to cast, and normalize the dots and burst damage over the new time period. Same with any other spell mixed in that doesn't proc the buff. The key thing is in whatever rotation to calculate how many pyroblasts get procced and when added to casting time, what% of each spell is running then add DPS of each spell, multiplied by their % of the rotation. Then add in any dots based on their expected uptime.

This kind of analysis is good enough to spot differences of 5-10%. It may not absolutely match what you see in the field but as a relative measure it's probably ok. It is probably not good enough for 1-2% differences, especially given how small actual fight sample sizes are. (a 200 second fight might have 10 pyroblasts as expected, or 16 or 6...will usually have 8-12)

The biggest failing of the approach is it assumes you can truly calculate casting time and that the procs can be weaved in without messing up the scorch rotation (either too much scorching or too little). Most of the time you don't get a round number of procced pyroblasts either, so you are usually factoring in fractional castings.

I like doing stuff like this myself so I can try rotations or builds RAWR has not considered. For most things though RAWR does an excellent job, and on anything it has considered I'd believe it over my own spreadsheet.

Last edited by solbergb : 10/17/08 at 7:18 PM.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 7:19 PM   #3489
banaj
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by Bonemage View Post
Has anyone noticed problems with the improved scorch glyph? In BT it seemed really erratic, it worked on BB and mother trash, went back to doing a single stack on Mother and Council trash and then worked properly for council. There was another mage with it in the run and his didn't seem to have any problems.
Been doing loads of heroics and there is definetaly something wrong with it.
It didn't work at all in Botanica, worked fine in other heroics.
Then on some bosses it doesn't work all of a sudden while before/after the boss it works fine again.
No clue what the variable is that messes it up.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 7:26 PM   #3490
MrJukes
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by banaj View Post
Been doing loads of heroics and there is definetaly something wrong with it.
It didn't work at all in Botanica, worked fine in other heroics.
Then on some bosses it doesn't work all of a sudden while before/after the boss it works fine again.
No clue what the variable is that messes it up.
Were you running with a frost mage? Since WC is the only debuff that competes wth scorch that could possibly have an effect if you were.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 8:09 PM   #3491
diskape
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Zenedar (EU)
Originally Posted by Kludge View Post
Power Auras Classic : WoWInterface Downloads : Buff/Debuff/Spell Mods

That is a working version of powerauras. Just type /powa in the console, create a new page, add "Hot Streak", finally give it a graphic/sound notification. It has worked great for me so far.
You may also use PowerAuras for Living Bomb, select enemy + debuff, type Living Bomb, check "see timer" and you've got yourself nice replacement for Dottimer.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 8:23 PM   #3492
banaj
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by MrJukes View Post
Were you running with a frost mage? Since WC is the only debuff that competes wth scorch that could possibly have an effect if you were.
No, I was the only mage.
Three warriors, priest and me

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 9:15 PM   #3493
Maje
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Naxxramas (EU)
Any news on Living Bomb being fixed in the new build (i.e. can be applied t by multiple mages)?

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 10:12 PM   #3494
Xunwael
Piston Honda
 
Xunwael's Avatar
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Originally Posted by Typex View Post
I was just wondering what spec you used when you did those heroics.
Thanks in advance.
Since the armory for some reason is showing me as a 2/28/31 with all my points in fire in the final tiers somehow, that's a pretty good question! Though, as you could deduce from the post I was a heavy fire spec with firestarter.

Not an optimal spec by any means, but it was the best I could come up with on patch day, mostly pve focused with some random pvp talents tossed in for BG hilarity; 02/59/00

"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice."
- Clark's Law

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 11:44 PM   #3495
aikiwoce
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Dawnbringer
Confirmed Fixed in Build 9095:
Frostfire Bolt(rank 2) - It's DoT is doing more damage, and scaling slightly.
Living Bomb - Multiple mages can now cast Living Bomb on a target.
Focus Magic - Multiple mage bug fixed, no proc in spellbook.
Molten Fury + Ice Lance - Ranks 2 and 3 of Ice Lance are doing appropriate damage w/Molten Fury.
Living Bomb(rank 3) "explosion effect" is now classified as a lvl80 spell, and no longer suffers a Downranking penalty.

Needs Confirmation:
Water Elemental + Mirror Images - They appear to be gaining your +hit. With 6%(extra 2% just in case) +hit couldn't generate a miss vs a lvl 80 target, with 0% + hit I observed a miss.

Not Tested/Couldn't Test:
TtW + Frostfire Bolt DoT- Molten Fury on a boss. It's working on dummies still, should be tested on bosses.

New Bugs:
Frostfire Bolt's DoT is doing 3x damage with 3/3 Empowered Fire.

I'll try to update the list as I go.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 11:52 PM   #3496
Nastre
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Saurfang
Any update on Ignite Munching on the beta realms?

It's the only thing that aggrieves me about 3.0, everything else is refreshingly paced and exciting. Particularly Hot Streak, that is especially enjoyable.

EDIT:

Answering my own question...

I'm pretty sure we have said this plenty of times, but yes we know the problem exists and yes, it is very hard to fix. That doesn't mean we have given up.
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Contemplations of a Researcher

Last edited by Nastre : 10/18/08 at 12:17 AM.

Offline
Old 10/17/08, 11:55 PM   #3497
aikiwoce
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Dawnbringer
unneeded post, please delete.

Last edited by aikiwoce : 10/18/08 at 12:14 AM.

Offline
Old 10/18/08, 3:04 AM   #3498
Zaylin
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Darkspear
How is AOE? I hear we were supposed to be the kings of AOE (this time for real). Im thinking about have my two specs being a singet target spec and an AOE spec. Whats looking the best way to go for AOEing?

Offline
Old 10/18/08, 3:28 AM   #3499
arch
Don Flamenco
 
arch's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Aikiwoce

Nice list.
Add: Burning Determination now works.

Amusing bug: You don't need to actually have your cast interrupted to proc it, it procs everytime someone uses kick/pummel/CS/ES etc on you.


About frost: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> GC Talking About Mages In Another Class Forum
Frost is intended to be a little low to make up for the snares and freezes it can offer. But it shouldn't be so much lower that Frost mages stay in PvP and don't raid.
And my point was confirmed.

Last edited by arch : 10/18/08 at 3:37 AM.

Offline
Old 10/18/08, 4:53 AM   #3500
Dryssa
Von Kaiser
 
Dryssa's Avatar
 
Goblin Mage
 
Malorne
Regarding the Improved Scorch glyph not always working, I've found the source of the bug. If you cast Scorch on a mob with a spell reflection ability up, the scorch gets reflected back onto you, but you only get one debuff instead of 3. From then on, until you log out, each cast of Scorch will only put one debuff on mobs. That's why you noticed it not working in Botanica - the Protector mobs cast spell reflect at low HP.

I reported this on the Bug Report forum a day or two ago but the topic was deleted. Not sure what that means.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
If everything else is truly equal (gear, skill, etc.) then the pure dps class should beat the hybrid. If a raid chooses to run without rogues, mages, warlock or hunters, they should expect their overall dps to be lower. You can quote me on that.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Mages

Thread Tools