Yesterday, I made a mistake and began to cast a 5s pyro before the hot streak proc. When I finished casting the pyro, I lost hot streak.
Anyone else noticed this? Seems like a bug I think.
Looks completely normal to me. Hot Streak is coded to be consumed by pyroblast. If you don't want to lose it on a normal pyro, don't use a normal pyro while you're expecting hot streak to come up.
Looks completely normal to me. Hot Streak is coded to be consumed by pyroblast. If you don't want to lose it on a normal pyro, don't use a normal pyro while you're expecting hot streak to come up.
I disagree. Since the Pyro cast was started before the buff is applied, it is not the "next" Pyroblast listed in the talent description.
"Any time you score 2 spell criticals in a row using Fireball, Fire Blast, Scorch, or Frostfire Bolt, you have a 100% chance the next Pyroblast spell cast within 10 sec will be instant cast."
I read this to mean that there are only 2 possible scenarios that can remove the debuff..
1. An instant pyroblast
2. 10 sec
A similar thing that I have not tried yet; does Missile Barrage see the same issue? If you begin casting a 5 sec AM before the Missile Barrage buff appears, does it consume the Missile Barrage buff?
If yes, I think both situations can be reported as bugs.
A simple Pyro macro eliminates this situation by allowing only instant casts:
/cast Pyroblast
/stopcasting
Interesting. I'll try that. Might also be useful for the firestarter flamestrikes although the odd "click to start casting" mechanics of flamestrike might prevent it from working right.
As a side note the zombie invasion is giving me good practice for a lot of my new talents and tricks. Although burst AOEing them down tends to get me infected. Some of the larger packs have made me wish for the frost talents.
I've not run into any scenarios where I have hot streak come up while casting pyroblast because I've been triggering it with scorch and fire blast (no travel time). So I can't speak to how it behaves when triggered by a travel time nuke while you're in the process of casting a slow pyroblast. What I'm wondering though is why in the world are you casting pyroblast after casting anything else that could trigger hot streak without actually having hot streak up. There's some value to pyroblast as an opener in but it's a strict DPS loss whe chaincasting to pretty much any other approach when you've got hot streak trained.
A guild mate told me Thunderclap will satisfy the snare requirement for TtW (or will in the next build), yet all my research is showing that only Slow will. Can anyone confirm/deny?
There's some value to pyroblast as an opener in but it's a strict DPS loss whe chaincasting to pretty much any other approach when you've got hot streak trained.
I think the above poster was referencing a situation where he accidentally started a Pyroblast thinking he had Hotstreak, but did not yet have the buff. He finished the 5s cast and realized that it removed the Hotstreak buff.
Of course Pyroblast when used for its full duration is a drop in DPS as it is essentially worthless unless it is instant.
Shouldn't my above statement send of alarms to developers? A 5 second spell that is, in almost all conceivable situations, utterly useless.
PoM+Pyro and Hotstreak+Pyro are the only situations where this spell has ever not sucked. What is the point of a spell that, in its true form, is never used?
I have started working on a tool that will allow me to see more information that just the summary that WWS creates. It is very, very beta right now and is really only meant for me to use, but I decided to post here in case anybody else can make some use of it. One thing that I have been able to use it for is to compare the spell rotations I use in a fight to the theory crafted rotations from sites like Vontre's magegraf. The initial file parsing is extremely slow on the current host, but viewing the data after that isn't so bad. I named the site Big Picture, and it is at http://www.wowbp.com if anybody wants to give it a try. There is an email address there for suggestions and bugs as well.
I have started working on a tool that will allow me to see more information that just the summary that WWS creates. It is very, very beta right now and is really only meant for me to use, but I decided to post here in case anybody else can make some use of it. One thing that I have been able to use it for is to compare the spell rotations I use in a fight to the theory crafted rotations from sites like Vontre's magegraf. The initial file parsing is extremely slow on the current host, but viewing the data after that isn't so bad. I named the site Big Picture, and it is at http://www.wowbp.com if anybody wants to give it a try. There is an email address there for suggestions and bugs as well.
A very ambitious project indeed! I think you may draw more interest if there were some examples we could sift through.
Shouldn't my above statement send of alarms to developers? A 5 second spell that is, in almost all conceivable situations, utterly useless.
It is actually less bad with the 5s casting time than it was in BC for dps purposes assuming the DOT has time to tick. It isn't fireball but it isn't horrible as the DOT also scales with spell damage.
As for ingame uses I find that a pyroblast/living bomb opener on elites works a lot better than anything I did in BC as the GCD for living bomb solves the range issue I had with using fireball or pyroblast and then wanting to scorch on the approach to debuff it and the disorient at 12s gives me breathing space before it can really do too much damage too me after it gets close without blowing a key cooldown. It's essentially free damage compared to any other opener I might use. The spell is intended for opening burst damage vs targets unaware of you, not steady DPS.
Frostfire bolt will obsolete it on anything that can be chilled, as it does decent damage and the chill effect means I get a free extra scorch in at least. But from level 20-75 I have some uses for it outside of the instant cast tricks.
I think the above poster was referencing a situation where he accidentally started a Pyroblast thinking he had Hotstreak, but did not yet have the buff. He finished the 5s cast and realized that it removed the Hotstreak buff.
Of course Pyroblast when used for its full duration is a drop in DPS as it is essentially worthless unless it is instant.
Shouldn't my above statement send of alarms to developers? A 5 second spell that is, in almost all conceivable situations, utterly useless.
PoM+Pyro and Hotstreak+Pyro are the only situations where this spell has ever not sucked. What is the point of a spell that, in its true form, is never used?
The same functionality it served since you first get it at level 20 - Higher opening damage when solo. The DPCT on it isn't actually bad if the DoT gets its full duration, the problem arises through total lack of talent support - the exact same reason scorch isn't used (outside of a gimmick buff).
I still contend that from a technical perspective it is not a bug that pyroblast consumes hot streak.
It's not a complete lack of talent support. Both scorch and pyroblast have some (incinerate, spell impact for scorch, world in flames for pyro). It's just that while they got buffed, so did fireball (with spell impact).
Fireball has better talent support is all, and it pays a hefty 8 point price for that extra support.
The reason that casted pyroblast consumes hotstreak is the same mechanic that allowed you to cast arcane blast as the debuff was fading and not refresh the stack.
The cast speed is calculated based on auras present when the cast was started. The removal (or in AB's case addition) of the aura in response to the spellcast is calcuated on the spell casting.
i think there is a way to make AB debuff stackable while using Abar and MBarrage , it will make AB a main nuke but not better while spamming. i.e. give Abar to add a stack for AB and %20 chance per missle to stack another one which makes AB a primary nuke for arcane tree while using Abar and MBarrage and by modifications to "debuff percents" which i didn't think of now to not to make an abuse for pvp burst.
By these modifications maybe there will be a circle to insert normal AM spams into , giving an arcane spell to spam but not only 1 spell (AB) , and a better usage for a 51 talent and a MBar. proc.
I think AB should go back to the way it was first off with the cast time reduction down to 1.5 after 3 debuffs then they couple implement a change like this:
I personally think if Blizz made a debuff that you got once you let AB stack to a certain point i.e. (6 debuffs or cast of AB) then gave you a penalty (for name sake) I will call it - Arcane Exhaustion. This debuff gives you a stiff penalty (don't know exactly what that would be) for hitting AB anymore after the stack number until a) some timer counts down to allow AB's to be cast again without the penalty or b) you cast a different spell. I think it should be semi-spammable not fully automatic like pre 3.0. The issue was that there was nothing to get you off the AB button....Ever. Maybe the "Arcane Exhaustion" debuff even encourages you to press another button by offering X amount of Haste, Crit, Damage the next spell that is cast that is NOT Arcane Blast? I am just throwing an idea out there to see if it could work.
Before we can make any propasals for arcane blast, blizzard needs to let us know what they want the spell to do. In its current form the ability for it to stack is really just a 'soft cooldown' on the spell. The damage increase is not a valuable asset and the mana cost increase is something you cannot spend much time playing inside of. Currently I'm playing a 58/3/0 build and the only time I let AB go to 2 stacks is then I blow my macro for AP/Trinket/PoM/AB - getting that AB with 30% from AP and 15% from a previous buff makes the added mana cost just bearable, once every 2 minutes.
If they want the stacking effect to serve any purpose then they are doing a very subtle job of it. from every angle I can think of, its chocolate-flavoured cooldown.
I think AB should go back to the way it was first off with the cast time reduction down to 1.5 after 3 debuffs then they couple implement a change like this:
I personally think if Blizz made a debuff that you got once you let AB stack to a certain point i.e. (6 debuffs or cast of AB) then gave you a penalty (for name sake) I will call it - Arcane Exhaustion. This debuff gives you a stiff penalty (don't know exactly what that would be) for hitting AB anymore after the stack number until a) some timer counts down to allow AB's to be cast again without the penalty or b) you cast a different spell. I think it should be semi-spammable not fully automatic like pre 3.0. The issue was that there was nothing to get you off the AB button....Ever. Maybe the "Arcane Exhaustion" debuff even encourages you to press another button by offering X amount of Haste, Crit, Damage the next spell that is cast that is NOT Arcane Blast? I am just throwing an idea out there to see if it could work.
A bit too complex. How about:
Arcane Blast (Rank 4): Blasts the target with energy, dealing 912 to 1058 Arcane damage. Your next spell's damage is increased by 15% and mana cost is increased by 200%. Effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 3 sec.
Affects all spells. Drops back to zero if you cast anything other than AB. It's not a mana dump, but I've given up believing that a "balanced mana dump" is possible. Still, this way, it's useful situationally. It satisfies Blizzard's goal of "casting it once is awesome, casting it twice in a row is (somewhat) less awesome". It's not just for Arcane mages, (fingers of frost procs, hot streak procs -- maybe?), yet no one is going to stand there and spam it (even arcane mages will want to cast something else).
Arcane Blast (Rank 4): Blasts the target with energy, dealing 912 to 1058 Arcane damage. Your next spell's damage is increased by 15% and mana cost is increased by 200%. Effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 3 sec.
Affects all spells. Drops back to zero if you cast anything other than AB. It's not a mana dump, but I've given up believing that a "balanced mana dump" is possible. Still, this way, it's useful situationally. It satisfies Blizzard's goal of "casting it once is awesome, casting it twice in a row is (somewhat) less awesome". It's not just for Arcane mages, (fingers of frost procs, hot streak procs -- maybe?), yet no one is going to stand there and spam it (even arcane mages will want to cast something else).
I don't get it.
The reason we don't cast arcane blast more than once is because it costs 200% more (and it's actually better dps to cast barrage). The mana cost is too steep even with the base mana cost of AB being so low. Can you imagine casting AM with that buff. AM at 200% mana would use as much mana as a fully stacked AB. Arcane Barrage would be too expensive too.
Deep Freeze with the changes is pretty dissapointing....
You hardly ever use it in PvE ....
even in PvP its functionality really isnt novel ... it can interrupt casting, but we have CS ... it can stun, but we can freeze and frozen targets can take more damage w/o breaking...
I think they should just re-do the 51-pt frost talent to something that almost resembles Shadowfury ....
Icicle Rain: Mobs in the AOE take 900-1200 dmg, frozen mobs are stunned for 2s. 30s CD reducable by 20% w/talents.
Yes. I don't mind admitting when the numbers aren't quite right. Hopefully it helps my credibility so that you do believe me at other times.
We think the problem is that Arcane Barrage is a very good spell, so much so that you need to get back to it right away and don't want to waste potential Barrage time with another spell. I know at this point you're expecting me to say that we're going to nerf Arcane Barrage, but actually we're going to mess with Arcane Blast some more. Lowering the cooldown is an attractive idea because it would let you squeeze Blasts off in between Barrages more easily. Alternatively, we could just buff Blast's damage so its clearly superior to Fireball or whatever else you might want to squeeze in there.
We normally don't want to go too far into how to play your class, but alternating Blast and Barrage with the occasional Arcane Missile when the fast cast procs, makes a pretty decent rotation.
I guess the expected role for Arcane Blast is Arcane Barrage filler.
I guess the expected role for Arcane Blast is Arcane Barrage filler.
I am reassured that GC acknowledges that Arcane Blast is inferior to fireball in that role currently. I am also grateful to Vontre for suggesting that Arcane Blast should be redefined so that it interacts with a subsequent Arcane Barrage. Hopefully that suggestion will be taken seriously.
Now, if only Blizzard would recognize that the same problem exists with Scorch, which is useless iwhen you have winters chill in your raid, and even when you don't have a frost mage, it's still a spell you only cast when you "have to" and hate with a passion while casting it.
Now, if only Blizzard would recognize that the same problem exists with Scorch, which is useless iwhen you have winters chill in your raid, and even when you don't have a frost mage, it's still a spell you only cast when you "have to" and hate with a passion while casting it.
An old topic is (imp) scorch's begrudged/celebrated usage, but like so many others, people have vastly different views on it. From "I like that it mixes up my rotation" to "Imp Scorch should at least be refreshed by [insert spell]" it is difficult to say that a majority of mages dislike using scorches in PvE, and lack of unanimity among players is many times an indicator that a mechanic is not likely to change. For what it's worth, the Scorch Glyph is a definite nod to the preference for casting less scorch.
It only alleviates as much casting to ramp at the beginning of a given fight, though. It doesn't change the duration, and for all intents and purposes scorch is just like a warlock curse, just with a 1.5 second cast-time rather than 1.5 second GCD, and only lasts 30 seconds instead of 300. Scorch is the reason I dislike Fire gameplay. Reaction to procs is fine, but rotations dictated by timers aren't fun to me.
Give me a Glyph of Scorch that instead of increasing the number of stacks per cast increases the duration of the debuff to 2 minutes (or 5!) and I might actually not care as much that Frost has been repeatedly stabbed to death for raiding. Fire could be pretty fun under those circumstances.
It only alleviates as much casting to ramp at the beginning of a given fight, though. It doesn't change the duration, and for all intents and purposes scorch is just like a warlock curse, just with a 1.5 second cast-time rather than 1.5 second GCD, and only lasts 30 seconds instead of 300. Scorch is the reason I dislike Fire gameplay. Reaction to procs is fine, but rotations dictated by timers aren't fun to me.
Give me a Glyph of Scorch that instead of increasing the number of stacks per cast increases the duration of the debuff to 2 minutes (or 5!) and I might actually not care as much that Frost has been repeatedly stabbed to death for raiding. Fire could be pretty fun under those circumstances.
I could not agree more. I hated scorch and I still do. Especially on the days of SSC and TK when mages lost a LOT of precious DPS when we had to switch targets all the time and lose the scorch debuff or ramp it up again and again.
We could even think about something else, our debuff should be a SPELL available to all mages, with all long duration, instant cast. There is really no reason to punish ourselves with something useless that we hate. That way we could get rid of both talents, get rid of the wierd TWO debuffs that do not stack and replace them with something fun/useful.
About arcane blast, if they wanted it as a filler spell in the first place, why didn't they give it a cooldown and be done with it ? It serves no other purpose anyway.
I could not agree more. I hated scorch and I still do. Especially on the days of SSC and TK when mages lost a LOT of precious DPS when we had to switch targets all the time and lose the scorch debuff or ramp it up again and again.
We could even think about something else, our debuff should be a SPELL available to all mages, with all long duration, instant cast. There is really no reason to punish ourselves with something useless that we hate. That way we could get rid of both talents, get rid of the wierd TWO debuffs that do not stack and replace them with something fun/useful.
About arcane blast, if they wanted it as a filler spell in the first place, why didn't they give it a cooldown and be done with it ? It serves no other purpose anyway.
Like I said above, some people actually like scorch, and that's reason enough to assume it won't be removed as a requirement for pve fire dps. "I don't like casting scorch" isn't going to affect any change, and giving us another casted buff/debuff isn't a solution I can see being implemented. Either it will be a short duration spell, rotated just like scorch currently is, or it will be a clone of warlock curses, like you suggested. The former is a side-grade, the latter leads to homogenization. I agree the Winter's Chill vs. Imp Scorch conflict is a legitimate concern, but, barring a change to the debuff, it leaves open the possibility for a frost heavy FFB build to be competitive (with some tweaks of course), thanks in part to avoiding casting scorch.
Personally I love scorch. I have a hard time with casting COE on mobs specifically because it does no dps as you cast it. On the other hand, scorch is like a coe but that does dps at the same time. Put another way, its mostly a more interesting debuff applier than coe is for most of the cases. Anything short duration coe is really not something enjoyable to do (this is particularly apparent when soloing stuff). For long duration, you want the coe model over the scorch model.
As far as I'm concerned, under most circumstances I prefer scorch over coe as far as flexibility goes.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
A simple yet elegant 'fix' for Scorch would be to have a glyph or talent that refreshes the debuff when casting a usual spell (FB, FFB, FrB would suffice I imagine?). The mirror is obvious in sPriests and Warlocks now where a primary dps DoT is refreshed through usual mechanics. After all, Scorch is really just a fancy DoT wrapped up with a raid debuff now.
I don't know that this is needed or anything but I could see it playing out reasonably fairly if implemented.
10/23/08, 2:37 PM
