WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3.3 live) - Page 152

Thegoodman · 10/26/08, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Misch

I seriously doubt that is accurate.

TheGoodMan's example would require HS buffs to stack/gain additional 'charges', which it clearly cannot. What is possible (and IMHO likely) is that given his example, Pyro A was cast prior to Fireball 2.B. landing. Otherwise, my observations simply do not jive with his.

This is what I meant/said. The 1st Pyroblast was cast before the 4th Fireball landed/crit.

Duravi · 10/26/08, 8:12 PM

Rowyn I'm not sure if you considered this in your numbers, I know you said fight length, but what actually affects it is number of iterations which fight length obviously has a lot to do with but so does haste, and what spells you are casting. For example, a frost spec is always going to have more casts of frostbolt than a fire spec would of fireball so just from iterations alone (before considering crit or anything else) frostbolt is going to have less volatility than fireball.

Roywyn · 10/26/08, 9:15 PM

Originally Posted by Duravi

Rowyn I'm not sure if you considered this in your numbers, I know you said fight length, but what actually affects it is number of iterations which fight length obviously has a lot to do with but so does haste, and what spells you are casting. For example, a frost spec is always going to have more casts of frostbolt than a fire spec would of fireball so just from iterations alone (before considering crit or anything else) frostbolt is going to have less volatility than fireball.

Fight lenth is just a scalar added on top of all numbers. To be exact, it's a factor "1/sqrt(#Fireballs cast)" that is multiplied to the "volatility percentage" and reduces it.
Frostbolt is taken into account there, in that you cast 20% more Frostbolts than Fireballs.

Further things like pets, or Hot Streak actually increasing the number of casts and whatnot were not considered.
It was meant to be a very simple model to get a rough idea.

Misch · 10/26/08, 9:46 PM

Originally Posted by RpgWizard

No, the situation that TheGoodMan portrayed definitely happens, regardless of range, as long as you mash your Pyroblast button as your Fireball cast finishes (There may be situations where you have a high ping that your distance may come into account, but with 300 ms on the beta I have been right next to mobs and able to pull this off).

Spells may only crit when they land, not when they are cast, thus the discrepancy between your spell rotation and his.

Originally Posted by RpgWizard

What happens is you got the Hot streak proc and it resets the internal Hot Streak counter to 0.

Three fireballs crits can produce two Hotstreak procs. I believe there is no Hot Streak 'counter' at all. Rather, I think it's more of a series of 'If->Then' statements occurring during each FB/Blash/Scorch spell cast and spell land:

Spell Cast:

If previous FB/Blst/Scorch damage was crit damage: Proceed, otherwise ignore.
If previous FB/Blst/Scorch did not apply/refresh HS buff: Proceed, otherwise ignore.

Spell Landing:

If this FB/Blst/Scorch crit: Apply/Refresh Hot Streak buff, otherwise ignore.

Omala · 10/27/08, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by Duravi

Rowyn I'm not sure if you considered this in your numbers, I know you said fight length, but what actually affects it is number of iterations which fight length obviously has a lot to do with but so does haste, and what spells you are casting. For example, a frost spec is always going to have more casts of frostbolt than a fire spec would of fireball so just from iterations alone (before considering crit or anything else) frostbolt is going to have less volatility than fireball.

Rowyn is doing tests to lessen RNG, I'm testing what skill can be implemented by upping RNG. Haste would definately up your chances to improve more possible RNG procs, Rowyn is attempting to combat it.

AMIRITE?

Akston · 10/27/08, 2:33 AM

So.. I am really starting to sound like a broken record now. From personal testing on beta, with a level 75 mage, I was most definitely getting the bonus from TtW specced 18/48/0 on the test dummies while keeping FFB on the target and then rotating fireballs. The only thing I wasn't able to test was whether or not the bonus still applies when working with boss mobs that are immune to snares but I can't see why it wouldn't since the bug with MF causing TtW to not work is seemingly fixed now from my test results. The only real problem with fire builds at this point would be possible mana issues. 1 Fireball mage and 1 FFB mage seems to be the way to go.

Xentropy · 10/27/08, 4:04 AM

Target dummies are not immune to snares, so testing related to Torment the Weak is pretty much useless with dummies. You can even freeze boss dummies with abilities such as frost nova and frostbite. Only tests in actual raids are truly meaningful where TtW is concerned, and the last test data on real bosses was that Frostfire Bolt's debuff did NOT count toward TtW but Slow, on bosses that it could be applied to (which wasn't all, for some reason), did.

Akston · 10/27/08, 4:29 AM

Right but if I remember correctly TtW wasn't even working on the test dummies with ffb's dot previously. If I am wrong than disregard all this but as I understood it molten fury was causing FFB's dot not to be counted for the snare under any circumstances. Unless I am missing something this signifies a change/bugfix.

The molten giants in MC aren't snareable right? I will go test it on them in a bit.

Pintofbrew · 10/27/08, 8:11 AM

Originally Posted by Akston

So.. I am really starting to sound like a broken record now. From personal testing on beta, with a level 75 mage, I was most definitely getting the bonus from TtW specced 18/48/0 on the test dummies while keeping FFB on the target and then rotating fireballs. The only thing I wasn't able to test was whether or not the bonus still applies when working with boss mobs that are immune to snares but I can't see why it wouldn't since the bug with MF causing TtW to not work is seemingly fixed now from my test results. The only real problem with fire builds at this point would be possible mana issues. 1 Fireball mage and 1 FFB mage seems to be the way to go.

Irrespective if TtW works on bosses or not, you missed the obvious Rotate FFb/3*FB. There's no need for a debuff slave when you can supply it yourself, and 18-arcane FFB specs are stillborn without Ice Shards.

Roywyn · 10/27/08, 8:24 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Irrespective if TtW works on bosses or not, you missed the obvious Rotate FFb/3*FB. There's no need for a debuff slave when you can supply it yourself, and 18-arcane FFB specs are stillborn without Ice Shards.

You're missing the point that Torment works on bosses, but is only triggered by the "Slow" ability in them.

On slowable mobs, which in includes dummies, it's triggered by every junk slow proc a raid has.
On bosses, it's only triggered by Slow. At least in the previous patch.

Don't post if you didn't test it on actual bosses. Dr. Boom, Molten Core trash, the elite harpy in Storm Peaks.
And if you tested it, make it more clear in the post.

The mechanics for Torment are dumb, that's why I explained it in the Original Post.

Jonny_Monroe · 10/27/08, 8:53 AM

Slow, on bosses that it could be applied to (which wasn't all, for some reason), did.

It checks against the 3 things that slow modifies (Ranged, casting and movement) - and if a boss is immune to all 3 then slow will not apply; but if any 1 of those effects can hit a boss then slow will stick. For most bosses the 'sticking' effect is the ranged slow because the majority of bosses don't actually have ranged attacks so theres little point in giving them imunity to ranged speed modifiers (Notice that vashj is immune, but basically everything else in SSC isn't).

TtW is a poorly thought-out talent and offers no real substance to arcane other than placing a big sticker early in the tree that reads 'Use this tree for kiting things'. It doesn't address any of the glaring flaws with the tree and its presence apparently causes further flaws. I would be more than happy if the talent was axed before wrath and replaced with something that better handles arcane's scalling issues.

diag · 10/27/08, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

On bosses, it's only triggered by Slow. At least in the previous patch.

I think using Slow to trigger Ttw before each AP will give a slight dps increase?

Ploppy · 10/27/08, 9:39 AM

Could be the case, but even so TtW is a talent that without question will hold arcane back in PvE. Arcane has the best mobile DPS and the best reliable burst on demand in combination with some RNG based burst from a 100% mobile non interruptable spell with high proc chanse. Throw all of those together with any % modifier working with slow and you make the PvE situation vs PvP really iffy. Basicly arcane mages could be allowed to do 12% more damage in PvE if they removed TtW, well... they would offcourse do so in PvP as well, but the point is that a damage increase that easily affects trash and thus enemy players but with much more dificulty affects bosses will inflate damage versus players and trash and supress it on bosses. Not very ideal in other words. Not to mention that the tier TtW is on allready has plenty of points in a tree that has a total pointscore greater than the druid feral tree that is designed to acomodate two diferent melee roles. Don´t get me wrong, I really love the feel of new arcane. I dont know how high the skill factor will be compared to old AB spam since nothing lasts long enoughe, but the rough feel of the playstyle is rahter enjoyable. I just hope that besides a numbers pass they plan to trim the tree around the edges a bit cause what the tree needs is a tad more streamlining. To the point where you can pick up all of its DPS aspects and then have enoughe points to pick up one or two utility talents depending on what content you prefer.

Enthorn · 10/27/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Misch

Three fireballs crits can produce two Hotstreak procs. I believe there is no Hot Streak 'counter' at all. Rather, I think it's more of a series of 'If->Then' statements occurring during each FB/Blash/Scorch spell cast and spell land:

Spell Cast:

If previous FB/Blst/Scorch damage was crit damage: Proceed, otherwise ignore.
If previous FB/Blst/Scorch did not apply/refresh HS buff: Proceed, otherwise ignore.

Spell Landing:

If this FB/Blst/Scorch crit: Apply/Refresh Hot Streak buff, otherwise ignore.

I believe Hot Streak indeed works on a counter. The counter is a measurement of exactly what the tooltip says. It counts how many critical strikes you have in a row between the spells cast, ignoring any non-Fireball/Scorch/Fire Blast/Frostfire Bolt casts. Once the counter reaches 2 out of 2 criticals, you gain the Hot Streak buff.

This hot streak buff is immediately consumed whenever you cast Pyroblast. The counter is separate from the buff, however. The counter resets after you've gained the Hot Streak buff. If you were to cast four fireballs in a row and all of them crit, it would look like this:

Fireball(1) lands - Crits - 1/2
Fireball(2) lands - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak
Fireball(3) lands - Crits - 1/2
Fireball(4) lands - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak buff is already active

The only reason this cast sequence is possible is that you are consuming the Hot Streak buff by casting Pyroblast -before- the fourth fireball crits. Thus it looks like this:

00:00 Fireball(1) begins casting
03:00 Fireball(1) releases
03:00 Fireball(2) begins casting
04:00 Fireball(1) hits - Crits - 1/2
06:00 Fireball(2) releases
06:00 Fireball(3) begins casting
07:00 Fireball(2) hits - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak (Counter resets)
09:00 Fireball(3) releases
09:00 Pyroblast(1) releases - Hot Streak is consumed
09:00 Fireball(4) begins casting
10:00 Fireball(3) hits - Crits - 1/2
10:00 Pyroblast(1) hits

And so forth. Hot Streak is consumed before the fourth fireball is casted. However, you can also do this:

00:00 Fireball(1) begins casting
03:00 Fireball(1) releases
03:00 Fireball(2) begins casting
04:00 Fireball(1) hits - Crits - 1/2
06:00 Fireball(2) releases
06:00 Fireball(3) begins casting
07:00 Fireball(2) hits - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak (Counter resets)
09:00 Fireball(3) releases
09:00 Fireball(4) begins casting
10:00 Fireball(3) hits - Crits - 1/2
12:00 Fireball(4) releases
12:00 Pyroblast(1) releases - Hot Streak is consumed
13:00 Fireball(4) hits - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak
13:00 Pyroblast(1) hits

The point is, Hot Streak is consumed when you cast Pyroblast. The Counter is added to when a spell crits. Your pyroblast cast will always happen either: A) Immediately after the release of the third fireball or b) Immediately after the release of the fourth fireball. Because there is travel time with your fireball, by the time the fourth fireball (the second hot streak buff) crits, the hot streak will have been consumed. What you can't do is this:

06:00 Fireball(3) begins casting
07:00 Fireball(2) hits - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak (Counter resets)
09:00 Fireball(3) releases
09:00 Fire Blast hits - Crits 1/2
10:00 Fireball(3) hits - Crits - 2/2 - Hot Streak

Casting a pyroblast after the third fireball in this case would consume the hot streak buff, but because there is no travel time on the Fire Blast, you've gained Hot Streak twice and only used it once. The idea is that you use the Hot Streak buff (from the 1st and 2nd fireball crits) before the third (or fourth) fireball crits. I don't know of any way to 'exploit' this in order to gain hot streak twice from three fireballs, and because you can never have more than one Hot Streak buff, and the buff is consumed when you cast Pyroblast, it seems entirely impossible. A WWS log or some explanation would be great.

I often manage Pyro double-taps when at max range, and they go something like this:

Cast FB 1
Cast FB 2
FB1 Crits
Cast FB 3
FB2 Crits, Hot Streak Procs
Cast Pyro 1
FB 3 Crits, Hot Streak Procs
Pyro 1 lands (irrelevant)
Cast Pyro 2
Pyro 2 lands (irrelevant)

I doubt the validity of this without a WWS log. I've had three fireball crits in a row and it has not resulted in two hot streak procs. Travel time, and lack thereof, is irrelevant in this case:

02:51'33.156 Enthorn Scorch hits Supremus for 1606 Fire. (Critical) (202 Resisted) [1/2]
02:51'40.703 Enthorn Scorch hits Supremus for 1882 Fire. (Critical) (105 Resisted) [2/2]
02:51'40.781 Enthorn gains Hot Streak.
02:51'46.125 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 4936 Fire. (Critical) (277 Resisted) [1/2]
02:51'46.140 Enthorn Pyroblast hits Supremus for 5443 Fire. (Critical) (305 Resisted)
02:51'57.609 Enthorn Scorch hits Supremus for 1575 Fire. (Critical) (331 Resisted) [2/2]
02:51'57.984 Enthorn gains Hot Streak.

Following your example, I should have gained Hot Streak after my fireball crit (and before the pyroblast landed). Instead, I gained Hot Streak when my next crit (the fourth crit) hit. This is straight from WWS:

02:52'33.453 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 4672 Fire. (Critical) (1575 Resisted)
02:52'35.515 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 6427 Fire. (Critical) (812 Resisted)
02:52'35.812 Enthorn gains Hot Streak.
02:52'37.859 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 4740 Fire. (Critical) (1598 Resisted)
02:52'40.000 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 5552 Fire. (Critical) (1203 Resisted)
02:52'40.078 Enthorn Pyroblast hits Supremus for 3982 Fire. (881 Resisted)
02:52'40.297 Enthorn gains Hot Streak.
02:52'43.828 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 5023 Fire. (Critical) (1089 Resisted)
02:52'44.281 Enthorn Pyroblast hits Supremus for 5263 Fire. (Critical) (1141 Resisted)
02:52'48.344 Enthorn Scorch hits Supremus for 1105 Fire. (244 Resisted)
02:52'48.562 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 4538 Fire. (Critical) (984 Resisted)
02:52'51.578 Enthorn Fire Blast hits Supremus for 2870 Fire. (Critical) (161 Resisted)
02:52'52.094 Enthorn gains Hot Streak.
02:52'52.797 Enthorn Fireball hits Supremus for 4862 Fire. (Critical) (615 Resisted)

♦ Seonid · 10/27/08, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Ploppy

Don´t get me wrong, I really love the feel of new arcane.

The biggest issue I have with Arcane currently is that it does not bring the 10% spell crit chance to the raid as Fire and Frost do, which given that we are the only class that brings this buff, has to be considered a factor.

Trunkot · 10/27/08, 12:31 PM

Hello all,

Assuming a 0+/50/0+ build and HOT STREAKS procs + BURNOUT.
The interest in crit score vs haste score will change. Does someone already make a study about this issue?

It is of course easy to simulate the difference for one stuff configuration by using Rawr but I guess that a "Law" must exists.

Thanks.

Prandur · 10/27/08, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by Trunkot

Hello all,

Assuming a 0+/50/0+ build and HOT STREAKS procs + BURNOUT.
The interest in crit score vs haste score will change. Does someone already make a study about this issue?

It is of course easy to simulate the difference for one stuff configuration by using Rawr but I guess that a "Law" must exists.

Thanks.

It has already been stated several times in this thread that with the new talents improving the value of crits, 1 crit rating will roughly be equal to 1 haste rating. This is true for rating conversions at 70 as well as 80.

The exact value of haste and crit and which is better of course depend on your gear as well as the type of fight (for long fights, crit has a very slight advantage since haste consumes mana while crit generates it // some add-fights will not fully utilize ignite etc.). My home-made parser shows a very slight advantage of crit rating.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that crit and haste ratings will be much less beneficial at level80 than they were at level70? Since Spelldamage won't go up all that much compared to spelldmg I have now in full Sunwell gear, at least not before I farm naxx a bit, but ratings will be deprecated by the level80 conversion. Currently, my parser shows approximately 1 critrating being at 0.76spelldmg and 1hasterating being at 0.71-0.75 spelldmg (depending on whether mana is factored in or not). Quite a drop from both being at 1.15 at Level70.

Edit: considering fire/arcane, not frostfire. Didn't do the calculation for frostfire yet, but crit will be better there.

Roywyn · 10/27/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Prandur

By the way, has anyone else noticed that crit and haste ratings will be much less beneficial at level80 than they were at level70? Since Spelldamage won't go up all that much compared to spelldmg I have now in full Sunwell gear, at least not before I farm naxx a bit, but ratings will be deprecated by the level80 conversion. Currently, my parser shows approximately 1 critrating being at 0.76spelldmg and 1hasterating being at 0.71-0.75 spelldmg (depending on whether mana is factored in or not). Quite a drop from both being at 1.15 at Level70.

Edit: considering fire/arcane, not frostfire. Didn't do the calculation for frostfire yet, but crit will be better there.

It's actually the same at level 70

If you're in blues and green with 600 spell damage, the value of ratings will be very low. Same with blues at 80.
You'll break beyond 2k SP in half Naxx-10 gear, that's where +hit becomes better than +dmg.
In a full 25-man kit, you'll get close to 3k fully buffed, and that's where haste/crit ratings will start to become competitive again.

But yes, you'll start stacking spell damage for a while when you reach 80.

dedmonwakeen · 10/27/08, 2:52 PM

Roywyn,

Per your question about JoW mechanics.....

This is purely speculative, but at 1% max mana and 4sec cooldown, the mana regen pie charts are showing near equivalent segments between JoW and Replenishment...... something the designers seemed to going after.

SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code (up to date with build 9138)

Note that Drain Soul builds still top the list, but that is an artifact of a raid composed of "too many" Warlocks.

Austin · 10/27/08, 3:03 PM

Mana is still a huge issue on 10 person content, as a replenishment class is not guaranteed. I'm running an 0-51-20 spec in Beta at the moment, Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I ran Naxx-10 last night, we did Patchwerk before the raid fell apart, we did not have a replenishment spec'd person in the raid(well, druid, but that's only if you get a Rejuv), and I had some massive mana issues, as did the other mage in the group, and the healers to a lesser extent.

I had to use 2 mana gems, evocate, mana pot, mage armor, Blessing of Wisdom, and not use Living Bomb for the fist 50%. I came out doing ~2,600 DPS, 2nd in DPS, and it took us ~5 minutes to kill Patchwerk, he's on a 6 minute enrage timer for Naxx-10, which we found out on a prior attempt when the melee DPS died...wrong positioning and no slime=dead melee dps.

With at least 1 replenishment class, it's till a close call, I've run it with Molten Armor, and not using Living Bomb until I knew that I had enough mana to last the entire fight, still using 2 mana gems, Evocate and a mana pot.

With 2 replenishment classes, go all out with everything that you have, I've never found mana to be an issue with 2 replenishment classes.

Montegomery · 10/27/08, 3:21 PM

Originally Posted by Seonid

The biggest issue I have with Arcane currently is that it does not bring the 10% spell crit chance to the raid as Fire and Frost do, which given that we are the only class that brings this buff, has to be considered a factor.

This has been bothering me as well. Given that TtW is another big concern, wouldn't it be appropriate to replace it with a talent sporting this functionality?

Kelfar · 10/27/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Misch

Cast FB 1
Cast FB 2
FB1 Crits
Cast FB 3
FB2 Crits, Hot Streak Procs
Cast Pyro 1
FB 3 Crits, Hot Streak Procs
Pyro 1 lands (irrelevant)
Cast Pyro 2
Pyro 2 lands (irrelevant)

If I am overlooking something simple let me know but I see no possible way you can get 2 hot streak procs from 3 fireball crits.

00:00 Begin casting fireball 1
00:03 Finished casting fireball 1
00:03 Begin casting fireball 2
00:04 Fireball 1 crits 1/2
00:06 Finished casting fireball 2
00:06 Begin casting fireball 3
00:07 Fireball 2 crits 2/2
00:07 You gain hotstreak buff but are still casting fireball 3
00:09 Finished casting fireball 3
00:09 You cast pyroblast 1
00:10 Fireball 3 crits 1/2
00:10 Pyroblast hits a half second after fireball 3

The only way I could see you gaining 2 hotstreak buffs is if fireball 3's crit somehow combines with fireball 2's crit and gives you a hotstreak buff since you used up the first hotstreak before fireball 3 crit.

Misch · 10/27/08, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kelfar

00:00 Begin casting fireball 1
00:03 Finished casting fireball 1
00:03 Begin casting fireball 2
00:04 Fireball 1 crits 1/2
00:06 Finished casting fireball 2
00:06 Begin casting fireball 3
00:07 Fireball 2 crits 2/2
00:07 You gain hotstreak buff but are still casting fireball 3
00:09 Finished casting fireball 3
00:09 You cast pyroblast 1
00:10 Fireball 3 crits 1/2
00:10 Pyroblast hits a half second after fireball 3

The only way I could see you gaining 2 hotstreak buffs is if fireball 3's crit somehow combines with fireball 2's crit and gives you a hotstreak buff since you used up the first hotstreak before fireball 3 crit.

That is pretty much the order of things as I had described them. However, I am UNABLE to replicate a pyro double-tap from three fireball crits as of this afternoon. I can assure you that I was certain of its validity prior to mentioning it on The EJ forums. My apologies to everyone. Rest assured I will have definitive logs to support my observations next time, if permitted, so that I may make a genuine contribution rather than just look like a douchebag.

Kugala · 10/27/08, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by Misch

That is pretty much the order of things as I had described them. However, I am UNABLE to replicate a pyro double-tap from three fireball crits as of this afternoon. I can assure you that I was certain of its validity prior to mentioning it on The EJ forums. My apologies to everyone. Rest assured I will have definitive logs to support my observations next time, if permitted, so that I may make a genuine contribution rather than just look like a douchebag.

Also, Hot Streak can store a charge after combat ends, so it's possible at the end of a previous fight you got a crit, then started off a new fight with 3 crits in a row. That gives the illusion of 3 crits giving 2 hotstreaks, even though it's really 4.

manly · 10/27/08, 5:45 PM

Hot streak isn't very complex. If you're a programmer, this is pretty much exactly how it works

public class HotStreakListener : PlayerBuff {
   protected int _count = 0;
   protected override void OnCast(CastInfoEventArgs e){
      if( e.Spell!="Fireball" && e.Spell!="Frostfire Bolt" && e.Spell!="Scorch" && e.Spell!="Fire Blast" )
         return;
      if( !e.IsCrit )
         _count = 0;
      else if( ++_count >= 2 ){
         _count = 0;
         e.Player.Buffs.Add( new Buffs.HotStreak() );
      }
   }
}

Basically think of it like an invisible buff that is always on you, that just keeps track of the number of crits you had. That counter gets never reset, not even when you log off (I think?). If I am not wrong, combustion behaves that way as well. Once you get the counter to 2, it gives you the hotstreak buff, and then resets himself.