Not sure how frostbite is any more dangerous for strider kiting than, say, nets. Anyhow, the point is moot with post nerf Vashj, who is much easier than the original.
I take 3/3 imp blizzard and also permafrost mostly for giggles. It's not strictly speaking a dps increase. But locking down mobs with 85% slow from freezing effects amuses me. I'll probably throw in impact at level 80 into my trash/aoe alternate build for good measure.
It does help if you run into aggro problems, which is now a real issue. The mobs move nowhere fast and you have plenty of time to invis, or stop casting, and let the MT reestablish control.
I am also seeing loads of misses in PvP, particularly against Paladins. This is while wearing full +17% hit gear. I don't understand the formulas to the tee, but I am guessing their talents that reduce chances to be hit by spells is not a flat increase because I should still be able to overcome the 4% that Paladins get from Divine Purpose by a large margin. I can also only recall ever seeing one full "Resist", and it was in PvP.
There can be two reasons for a resisted spell. One is a spell miss - insufficient hit - but that doesn't seem to be your case. The second is resistances. No amount of spellhit will help you against such resists. Do not forget that resistances not only allow for partial resists but also for full spell resists (for binary spells such as frostbolt they actually only allow full resists, with a higher chance of course).
About improving Blizzard DPS, several people have already responded with the answer, but I just wanted to confirm: Indeed, I was 0/0/61 specced with all Blizzard-boosting talents maxed out and had lots of raid buffs. I had a Vigilance buff on me from one of the warrior tanks, Focus Magic from one of the other mages, moonkin aura, ToW, flask of pure death, brilliant wizard oil and spell damage food buffs. Oh, and our paladins had a macro to use Hand of Salvation on me when I occasionally did pull aggro. I had around 360 passive haste and when I popped my trinkets (I had the Skull and the Sliver equipped), I was able to reach 12K DPS on certain trash waves with just melee mobs who use no damage shields.
There was no visible trade-off to single target DPS either, I was in the top three (and the top caster) in the meters on every boss fight except Rage Winterchill who has a lot of innate frost resistance. My best effort was 3000+ DPS on Kaz'rogal, who died so fast I had my elemental up the whole time with cold snap and a lucky crit streak. At the end of the run, I had produced 17% of the raid's total damage output - AoE is fun!
Level 70 raiding right now is Bizarro-WoW: If the crit dice rolls come out in your favour, Frost DPS beats Fire DPS because bosses are dying so fast. I have shelved theorycrafting for now and just decided to enjoy being frost spec again until we're back in serious progression raiding mode once more at level 80.
Regarding roots and blizzard. First people d not need to stand in the middle of the pack hit range is larger than people realize or use. Secondly using arcane explosion you similarily do not need to be in the pack as they greatly increased the size of the explosion.
There can be two reasons for a resisted spell. One is a spell miss - insufficient hit - but that doesn't seem to be your case. The second is resistances. No amount of spellhit will help you against such resists. Do not forget that resistances not only allow for partial resists but also for full spell resists (for binary spells such as frostbolt they actually only allow full resists, with a higher chance of course).
You seem to have missed the last few patches.
Firstly, casts that get fully resisted (due to resistance) do not show as "miss" in the log anymore, but now report "resist". Secondly, they changed that binary spell mechanics, so frostbolt does indeed get partial resists now when encountering resistances (or boss-level mobs).
Not sure how frostbite is any more dangerous for strider kiting than, say, nets.
Exactly - Talented Blizzard is not the problem, there are a few situations where it can be (as have been mentioned) but that's purely down to situational and/or encounter awareness, either on the part of the mage or other raid members. That's were the problem exists.
I find it personally amusing that it seems nobody mentioned scraping AP from the arcane tree to both 1- remove its burst 2- allow the tree to have decent crit multipliers. The arcane tree has always been distorted due to the presence of AP. It forces the entire tree to have as least as possible flat damage increase talent, instead pushing everything towards 'more haste' and also avoiding crit multiplier stuff. It also forces the design towards things like missile barrage.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
There can be two reasons for a resisted spell. One is a spell miss - insufficient hit - but that doesn't seem to be your case. The second is resistances. No amount of spellhit will help you against such resists. Do not forget that resistances not only allow for partial resists but also for full spell resists (for binary spells such as frostbolt they actually only allow full resists, with a higher chance of course).
That would solve a lot of problems Manly, however I think blizz would haveto be really desperate to dare touch something like that. The mage QQ from nuking AP would probably crash servers. At the same time it could easily be argued that PoM has always been a stronger signature talent for the tree than AP ever was. But never the less it would be really interesting to se what kind of things they would dare change with the tree if AP was removed. It is probalby something that single handedly holds arcane back in both PvP and PvE. Further it could easily be redesigned to a talent that was lots of fun, usefull and at the same time not causing 10 seccond arena matches. How about this for a new 31 pointer?
Warp Speed Instant cast 3 min cd
Increases the mage runspeed by 50% and allows casting while moving, lasts 15 secconds.
This wouldn´t make arcane any more bursty at all, would remove some CD stacking, would give arcane some pvp survivability, the ability to turn the hunted into the hunter (just not with stupidly big insta crits) also it would further arcane as the mobile tree in PvE alowing you to keep up regular dps rotations through some phase that requires movement and the best part of all, like Manly suggests it would allow crit talents and well scaling nukes.
Well, on the idea of removing AP, they could just replace it with a version of the ZA haste buff that would preserve the point as a PvE dps cooldown, but give a run speed bonus to help escape in PvP. Making it a haste buff almost completely erases the benefit that PoM-Pyro (or whatever other PoM-ed spell you'd use) and Arcane Barrage currently receive from AP. In a stand-and-nuke situation, as haste buff could provide the same effect as current AP (more damage for more mana), but in PvP the instants that predominate there would only receive a slight lowering of the GCD.
That would solve a lot of problems Manly, however I think blizz would haveto be really desperate to dare touch something like that. The mage QQ from nuking AP would probably crash servers. At the same time it could easily be argued that PoM has always been a stronger signature talent for the tree than AP ever was. But never the less it would be really interesting to se what kind of things they would dare change with the tree if AP was removed. It is probalby something that single handedly holds arcane back in both PvP and PvE. Further it could easily be redesigned to a talent that was lots of fun, usefull and at the same time not causing 10 seccond arena matches. How about this for a new 31 pointer?
Warp Speed Instant cast 3 min cd
Increases the mage runspeed by 50% and allows casting while moving, lasts 15 secconds.
This wouldn´t make arcane any more bursty at all, would remove some CD stacking, would give arcane some pvp survivability, the ability to turn the hunted into the hunter (just not with stupidly big insta crits) also it would further arcane as the mobile tree in PvE alowing you to keep up regular dps rotations through some phase that requires movement and the best part of all, like Manly suggests it would allow crit talents and well scaling nukes.
What would be the point in giving arcane the ability to cast while moving. Arcane mages are already the most mobile casters there are. We don't need any more mobility.
With regards to the Wizard oil conversation a couple of pages back, I just tested Blessed Wizard Oil and it is *not* a special exemption. Looks like Blizzard gave it to us for no reason since it will be unusable in Naxxramas. At least I know now there's no point in stocking up.
I was wondering if anyone have any idea whether they are fixing Frostbite / Fingers of Frost / Blizzard interaction? As of now, Blizzard will not proc Fingers of Frost if you don't also put talents in Frostbite. There is nothing on patch notes, but it is well known that Blizzard may not put all changes in the patch notes. Maybe I missed a forum post somewhere acknowledging this is a known bug and Blizzard is working on it?
I was wondering if anyone have any idea whether they are fixing Frostbite / Fingers of Frost / Blizzard interaction? As of now, Blizzard will not proc Fingers of Frost if you don't also put talents in Frostbite. There is nothing on patch notes, but it is well known that Blizzard may not put all changes in the patch notes. Maybe I missed a forum post somewhere acknowledging this is a known bug and Blizzard is working on it?
GC responded to a post about it somewhere, I don't have a link, but his response made it clear he was totally unaware of the issue and still didn't even seem to understand what the poster meant when he referred to it.
I was wondering if anyone have any idea whether they are fixing Frostbite / Fingers of Frost / Blizzard interaction? As of now, Blizzard will not proc Fingers of Frost if you don't also put talents in Frostbite. There is nothing on patch notes, but it is well known that Blizzard may not put all changes in the patch notes. Maybe I missed a forum post somewhere acknowledging this is a known bug and Blizzard is working on it?
Originally Posted by Faxmonkey
GC responded to a post about it somewhere, I don't have a link, but his response made it clear he was totally unaware of the issue and still didn't even seem to understand what the poster meant when he referred to it.
What Faxmonkey said.
I've simplified the description of the bug several times in my bug post on the beta forums. The build that is going live, is the previous build, and not the current beta one. This one did not have a fix for this issue, or the numerous other mage issues.
Here's a copy of my bugs list for build 9155, as I don't have a copy of my build 9138 bug list.
Confirmed/Tested Bugs in 9155:
1. Ignite - Munching still.
2. Molten Fury + Torment the Weak - Torment works properly on most mobs with the Frostfire Bolt DoT/Snare without Molten Fury. Once you spec into Molten Fury, Torment the Weak no longer works.
3. Molten Armor - Proc'ing Ignite and is eating FoF charges.
4. Fingers of Frost - One point in Frostbite is required for Ice Armor and Improved Blizzard to proc Fingers of Frost.
5. Icy Veins - Frostfire Bolt doesn't gain the pushback protection from Icy Veins.
6. Living Bomb - The explosion doesn't go off if you're stunned/incapacitated/dead/silenced or otherwise prevented from casting spells.
7. Flamestrike - Cast time for Ranks 1-6 is 2 seconds, 7-9 is 3 seconds. Fix ranks 7-9?
8. Master of Elements - Now returning mana on all ranks of Arcane Missiles except rank 11, and all ranks of Blizzard except rank 6.
9. Improved Scorch Glyph - Not functioning properly if you get a scorch reflected at you. You get 1 stack of Imp Scorch on you, and it won't work properly on any mob till you die/zone.
10. Mirror Image - This spell is triggering a gcd on spells that are off the gcd like CS/AP/PoM/IV.
Untested Bugs that may still exist:
1. Frostfire Bolt - Is gaining ~7% +hit from elemental precision.
2. Burning Determination - Is activating whenever any silence/interrupt ability is used against you, even if the ability didn't land.
It is likely that build 9155, or a subsequent bugfix build will be deployed a week or two after WotLK launch.
# Focus Magic: Now works properly when mages with this talent use the ability on each other.
? Does it mean we get the constant 3% and another on crit 3%? Also it seems in the patch notes they say that it's no longer possible to buff self.. I've tried it several times and it was never possible.
# Frostfire Bolt: The periodic damage effect from Rank 2 of this spell now benefits from spell power gains.
? Hmm, haven't I read that the DOT for frostfire no longer scales with your spellpower, have they changed it back?
What would be the point in giving arcane the ability to cast while moving. Arcane mages are already the most mobile casters there are. We don't need any more mobility.
Uhm... because even an arcane mage has higher dps while stationary. Quite simply it would allow you to cast AB and AM meaning you could cast a barrage that proced withot stoping and getting slaughtered. Even on a proc a barrage takes 2.5 sec to cast, and 2.5 sec can be time you do not have to stand around in an arena match. And for PvE purposes you can pop it for any phase that requires lots of mobility and it will be a DPS increase.
# Focus Magic: Now works properly when mages with this talent use the ability on each other.
? Does it mean we get the constant 3% and another on crit 3%? Also it seems in the patch notes they say that it's no longer possible to buff self.. I've tried it several times and it was never possible.
# Frostfire Bolt: The periodic damage effect from Rank 2 of this spell now benefits from spell power gains.
? Hmm, haven't I read that the DOT for frostfire no longer scales with your spellpower, have they changed it back?
Both were working, albeit slightly wrong, in 9138, but were "broken/fixed" in 9155. If I'm right, then FFB2's DoT should still be broken and gaining 15% coeff per tick in the live build. Focus Magic should be buffable on across 2 mages, but the proc may not happen. I can't remember which way it was broken. Oh well, we'll see what tomorrow brings.
# Focus Magic: Now works properly when mages with this talent use the ability on each other.
Currently if you have the 30 min FM buff from another mage, you will never get the 3% 10 second proc from the mage you put your FM on, no matter how often they crit.
Currently if you have the 30 min FM buff from another mage, you will never get the 3% 10 second proc from the mage you put your FM on, no matter how often they crit.
Hmm, that would be a good thing if it was actually implemented, however I haven't heard that it ever worked like this on the beta (i.e. gaining 6% when two mages buff each other).
Also they list:
# Arcane Potency: The additional crit bonus is now consumed immediately on cast of a travel time spell, so it is no longer possible to make two spells benefit from one charge. (Ex. Fireball followed by Fireblast.)
Is a little disturbing, will it also be 'fixed' for combustion, I guess their reason was to make Arcane mages less bursty.
On the issue of Arcane mages, the whole design concept of the tree is broken, pre. 3.0 it was all about a single spell - 'AB' with all the talents being mostly trash, and nowadays it's all about a single spell 'ABar' and maybe the MBar talent. It's no wander that 90% of the mages in the BGs are arcane and for a single reason Arcane Barrage, that is, people choose Arcane to be able to cast one spell... if that's not broken then what is?
Focus Magic works properly now.
If 2 mages cast it on each other and crit every 10 seconds, they both get +6% crit each.
FFB DoT does not scale anymore at all under any circumstance.
Frostfire Bolt double-dips from Dampen/Amplify Magic.
Talented, it's +/- 360 SP for most spells and +/- 720 SP for FFB.
Mirror Image
Fire Blast has 88-98 base damage.
Fire Blast now crits for +50% damage.
Frostbolt has 163-169 base damage. It crits for +50% damage too.
It also slows by -40% for 4 seconds.
With +360 Amplify Magic and no gear, they hit for:
Frostbolt 271-277
Fire Blast 142-152
That's +108 damage on Frostbolt - or 30% scaling.
And +54 damage on Fire Blast - or 15% scaling.
With a +1570 dmg on gear and no amplify/dampen, they hit for:
Frostbolt 320-326
Fire Blast 167-176 (damage range short 1 point)
That means +157 and +78 damage from 1570 spell power on the master, that's exactly 10% and 5%.
Conclusion
Mirror Images inherit 33.33% of their master's spell power each.
Their Frostbolt scales with 30%, their Fire Blast with 15% of their spell power.
They do not get any raid buffs or auras.
They usually cast 12 Fire Blasts and 24 Frostbolts total during their combined 30 second presence.
They do have a cast delay, but they don't have a global cooldown.
There is a bug/latency issue however, that occurs from time to time. Not always.
Often, their first volley of 3 Fire Blast will be cast and hit before the Mirror Images are properly initialised.
That means the first volley will be with 0 inherited spell power.
Originally Posted by Seonid
Currently if you have the 30 min FM buff from another mage, you will never get the 3% 10 second proc from the mage you put your FM on, no matter how often they crit.
You should point out that it works properly now, that you get 6% crit.
I've mentioned it several times in the thread and in the OP.
11/03/08, 8:05 AM
