WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3.3 live) - Page 160

Roywyn · 11/04/08, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Roywyn, just for clarification, when you say Amplify Magic do you mean it was tested on another player (duel) that had AMp. Magic on him?

Yes - party up, cast Amplify, duel and let the Mini-Mes loose.

The only way to split up the direct and and inherited scaling I could think of.

[Edit]: Ah, your answer was a bit confusing to me then, Seonid. Apologies.

♦ Seonid · 11/04/08, 7:19 AM

Post deleted, slight misunderstanding resolved.

Isambard · 11/04/08, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Deedre

Not sure how frostbite is any more dangerous for strider kiting than, say, nets. Anyhow, the point is moot with post nerf Vashj, who is much easier than the original.

It's the difference between choosing when to immobilize the mob and letting RNG do it for you, possibly at an inopportune time. We definitely had deaths from frostbitten Striders in the past so I persuaded our only frost mage to abandon frostbite and there were no issues on our first kill last night. Easy mode now , of course, but it had always been annoying having skipped her.

Roywyn · 11/04/08, 9:32 AM

Another Waterbolt test at level 80:

Base damage 601-673

With +360 Amplify: 900-973
That's +299-300 damage, or 5/6 scaling.

With +1540 SP on the mage: 1028-1100
That's +427 damage. With 5/6 WB scaling, that means that the pet gets 1/3 of it's master SP.

Conclusion

That means theWater Elemental get's 1/3 of the master's spell power, and Waterbolt then scales with 5/6 of the pet's spell power.

dedmonwakeen · 11/04/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Another Waterbolt test at level 80:

Base damage 601-673

With +360 Amplify: 900-973
That's +299-300 damage, or 5/6 scaling.

With +1540 SP on the mage: 1028-1100
That's +427 damage. With 5/6 WB scaling, that means that the pet gets 1/3 of it's master SP.

Conclusion

That means theWater Elemental get's 1/3 of the master's spell power, and Waterbolt then scales with 5/6 of the pet's spell power.

Roywyn,

I am currently using the following formula to calculate "base damage" for Water Bolt...... but it does not match you in-game testing.

  struct water_bolt_t : public spell_t
  {
    water_bolt_t( player_t* player ):
      spell_t( "water_bolt", player, RESOURCE_MANA, SCHOOL_FROST, TREE_FROST ) 
    {
      base_cost          = 0; // assume pet is not mana limited for now
      base_execute_time  = 2.5;
      base_direct_dmg    = ( 256 + 328 ) / 2;
      base_direct_dmg   +=( player -> level - 50 ) * 11.5;
      direct_power_mod   = ( 5.0 / 6.0 );
      may_crit           = true;
    }
    virtual void player_buff()
    {
      spell_t::player_buff();
      player_power += player -> cast_pet() -> owner -> composite_spell_power( SCHOOL_FROST ) / 3.0;
    }
  };

Is the base dmg hard-coded per level? Or is there a new formula?

Maje · 11/04/08, 11:19 AM

Well Mirror Image has become quite lackluster, around 10k dmg over 30 seconds on 3 minute CD, that's around 330dps over those 30 seconds, so probably still worth the GCD but isn't something to write home about. That is assuming the images benefit from the +hit (do they?). Also, do they benefit from molten fury?

Copernicus · 11/04/08, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Well Mirror Image has become quite lackluster, around 10k dmg over 30 seconds on 3 minute CD, that's around 330dps over those 30 seconds, so probably still worth the GCD but isn't something to write home about. That is assuming the images benefit from the +hit (do they?). Also, do they benefit from molten fury?

Last I heard, Mirror Image was taken off of the GCD.

Roywyn · 11/04/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Roywyn,

I am currently using the following formula to calculate "base damage" for Water Bolt...... but it does not match you in-game testing.

      base_direct_dmg    = ( 256 + 328 ) / 2;
      base_direct_dmg   +=( player -> level - 50 ) * 11.5;
      direct_power_mod   = ( 5.0 / 6.0 );

      player_power += player -> cast_pet() -> owner -> composite_spell_power( SCHOOL_FROST ) / 3.0;

Is the base dmg hard-coded per level? Or is there a new formula?

That looks pretty perfect to me really.

I just checked on beta:
486-558 at 70, 509-581 at 72, 601-673 at 80. Exactly like the formula.

Then the beta server shut down.

Mirror Image is not on the GCD. It has some strange behaviour, but you won't lose any time to casting it.
In raids from WWS, it seemed to do about 15k damage per cast on raid bosses, so that's free 83 DPS.

Flitwik · 11/04/08, 1:13 PM

Has anyone tested Extract of Necromatic Power with a LK FrostFire lvl80 spec ?
Is there an CD on the proc rate ? can it crit ? what kind of dmg is it (fire, shadow ... ? )

The last trinket with a proc on dot was realy bad for mages.
After quick math it could come up to a 102 dps up on a 6min fight ((10% of 357s *1050)/360) only on the FF dot.

Roywyn · 11/04/08, 1:31 PM

Originally Posted by Flitwik

Has anyone tested Extract of Necromatic Power with a LK FrostFire lvl80 spec ?
Is there an CD on the proc rate ? can it crit ? what kind of dmg is it (fire, shadow ... ? )

The last trinket with a proc on dot was realy bad for mages.
After quick math it could come up to a 102 dps up on a 6min fight ((10% of 357s *1050)/360) only on the FF dot.

The Frostfire DoT will never tick.
Or, well, it'll tick only when you cast Scorch/LB/Pyro or have to move, and even then only below 50% haste.

You'll have Living Bomb and Ignite DoTs ticking though.

Damage is a Shadow Bolt, check wowhead items/spells. 10% proc chance. Can likely crit (for 154.5% with CSD).
Cooldown? The BC version from HMgT had 15s, all WotLK trinkets so far have 45s.

Looks not bad, but unlikely to beat the stat/proc trinkets.

Peeb · 11/04/08, 2:19 PM

Question/clarification about some wording in the patch notes.

The patch notes state:
Brain Freeze: Now only frost spells that can chill can trigger the mana gain from this talent.

Wowhead.com (not wotlk.wowhead) states:
Brain Freeze Rank 3
Your Frost damage spells have a 15% chance to cause your next Fireball spell to be instant cast and cost no mana.

wotlk.wowhead.com states this:
Brain Freeze Rank 3
Your Frost damage spells with chilling effects have a 15% chance to cause your next Fireball spell to be instant cast and cost no mana.

I'm assuming that by 'mana gain', they mean the proc entirely. Sound about right? The patch notes are horribly worded for this change.

Peeb

Flitwik · 11/04/08, 2:50 PM

The DoT if this spell spell overwrite each other, thus it never gets to tick when Frostfire Bolt is spammed.
However, the DoT of Rank 1 does not overwrite the DoT of Rank 2.

Was it said that this is how blizz wants FF to work ?

Any way Extract of Necromatic Power would proc on pyro/ignite/LB dots

Pucc · 11/04/08, 4:52 PM

When they say frost spells with chill effects i believe they are stating that icelance will not proc it now. I have not tested this being at school but it is what i gather from it .

threep* · 11/04/08, 5:24 PM

Originally Posted by Flitwik

Was it said that this is how blizz wants FF to work ?

Any way Extract of Necromatic Power would proc on pyro/ignite/LB dots

"Timbal's" works with Living Bomb, Pyroblast and Ignite, so yes, EoNP should too.

Roywyn · 11/04/08, 6:21 PM

Rawr tells me to gem for Intellect!

I was toying with the latest Rawr release. Does it use the leatest version of JoW with 25% proc, no CD, 1% mana restored?
The hover-tooltip says 0.02 mana, but tooltips are usually the last thing to be updated.

I plugged in 2 gear sets - kit of Mostly BT/T6, and a kit of Sunwell gear.
I used my old setup with all relevant raid buffs and a 6 minute fight.
Nothing will last that long right now, but they will at 80.

In the BT gear set with Living Bomb:
SPow = Crit = Int = 16 DPS, Haste = 12 DPS, Mp5 = 5 DPS
In the BT gear set without Living Bomb:
SPow = Haste = Crit = 16 DPS, Int = 9 DPS, Mp5 = 2 DPS

In the Sunwell set with Living Bomb, this goes up to:
SPow = Crit = Int = 18 DPS, Haste = 12 DPS, Spirit = 7 DPS, Mp5 = 5 DPS
In the Sunwell set without Living Bomb, the value are pretty unstable:
SPow = Crit = 18 DPS, Haste = 15 DPS, Int = 10 DPS, Spirit = 3 DPS, Mp5 = 5 DPS

So, what does that tell us?

First, mana has actually become a meaningful commodity.
Not that it's particularly useful to have, but you risk running out of it faster.

A massive push of spell haste onto gear would have been a much larger impact if Sunwell had come out and was balanced with 3.0 talents.
It would have been a lot harder to make up for the increased mana usage later on.

The actual limitedness of mana combined with competitive DPS will most likely push us into FFB build, because of its efficiency.
Even if they change things and make Fireball the better raw DPS spell, it's doubtful if it can surpass FFB in the current mana situation.

Guess we'll have to see how the mana war meta game turn out for us.

Kavan · 11/04/08, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

I was toying with the latest Rawr release. Does it use the leatest version of JoW with 25% proc, no CD, 1% mana restored?

Rawr 2.0.3 has the 2% 4 sec cooldown version of JoW and the old mana cost of spells. (tooltips for buffs/items in Rawr are directly tied to the values that are used)

Aus123 · 11/04/08, 8:19 PM

Firstly, I'm sure this has been mentioned but in my time sifting through previous threads I didn't come across anything that answered this completely. So basically, frostfire bolt seems to be the optimal dps spec in LK but my question becomes, is there a specific rotation used for it? IE- do you spam frostfire and weave bomb and pyro or do you throw in fireballs to let the ffb dot tick? Also, given how much hot streak impacts dps, what percentage of fully buffed crit is considered acceptable or sufficient?

Prinsesa · 11/04/08, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Peeb

Simply put, Brain Freeze was changed such that it will not proc from Ice Lance, to prevent Mages from "fishing" for Brain Freeze procs via Ice Lance spam.

Also, please don't sign your posts.

Bulgarth · 11/04/08, 11:00 PM

So, on Brut tonight, I discovered something quite interesting....

Anyone care to explain the ridiculous Max ignite tick? Never saw anything like it before.

aikiwoce · 11/05/08, 1:28 AM

Originally Posted by Bulgarth

So, on Brut tonight, I discovered something quite interesting....

Anyone care to explain the ridiculous Max ignite tick? Never saw anything like it before.

Combustion/trinkets->Fireball(Crit)->Fireball(Crit)->HS-Pyro(Crit) would be my guess. I'll be testing my bug list tonight, and updating this post.

Fixed in 9183
1. [Item not found!] - No longer bugged when a scorch is reflected back at you.

Bugged in 9183
1. Ignite - Still munching.
2. Brain Freeze - Not proc'ing at all from Blizzard w/Improved Blizzard. This is probably due to the chill effect being applied via an override class script, and not directly by Blizzard. Interestingly, this bug gives an insight on why TtW doesn't work with Molten Fury, and why some people can't "shatter" the second charge of FoF reliably. I'll write up my thoughts later.
3. Fingers of Frost - One point in Frostbite is required for Ice Armor and Improved Blizzard to proc Fingers of Frost.
4. Living Bomb - The explosion doesn't go off if you're stunned/incapacitated/dead/silenced/Ice Blocked/Invisible or otherwise prevented from casting spells.
5. Flamestrike - Cast time for Ranks 1-6 is 2 seconds, 7-9 is 3 seconds. Fix ranks 7-9?
6. Master of Elements - Now returning mana on all ranks of Arcane Missiles except rank 11, and all ranks of Blizzard except rank 6.

Untested/Untestable Bugs from last beta build:
1. Frostfire Bolt - Was gaining ~7% +hit from elemental precision.
2. Molten Fury + Torment the Weak - Torment was working properly on most mobs using the Frostfire Bolt DoT/Snare without Molten Fury. Once you spec into Molten Fury, Torment the Weak would no longer work. See Brain Freeze Bug above.
3. Mirror Image - This spell was triggering an gcd for all spells/abilities/items that did are not on the gcd.
4. Icy Veins - Frostfire Bolt wasn't gaining the pushback protection from Icy Veins.

I'm feeling a little tired, can someone test this one:
1. Spell Impact - Spell Impact is being applied additively after Firepower, a multiplicative talent, but before Playing with Fire, another multiplicative talent. Currently: (FP + SI) * PwF -> (1.1 + 0.06) * 1.03. The wording of Spell Impact seems to imply that it should be: FP * SI * PwF -> 1.1 * 1.06 * 1.03.

Bulgarth · 11/05/08, 1:33 AM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

Combustion/trinkets->Fireball(Crit)->Fireball(Crit)->HS-Pyro(Crit) would be my guess. I'll be testing my bug list tonight, and updating this post.

I distinctly remember this ignite flashing across my screen around 40%, no trinkets we're up.

Edit: Last week my highest ignite tick was around 5000 with a chain of huge crits. Something must've happened to ignite this patch.

aliengrey · 11/05/08, 2:38 AM

nothing new, I've had ignites tick higher in the previous patch.

Quimly · 11/05/08, 5:02 AM

Wow Web Stats - From Pre 3.0

You probably just had things land right.

Wouldn't jump to any conclusions about ignite just yet.

Bulgarth · 11/05/08, 3:15 PM

Heh. Guess I just never really payed close attention to the 1 or 2 random really high ignites that you can get during the course of the fight.

Zaldinar · 11/05/08, 3:32 PM

Roywyn et all doing modeling, have you been assuming that the Living Bomb DoT benefits from Firepower? Since it doesn't appear to...

LB DoT tooltip - 1380 over 12

Naked Zero Spec
345 345 345 345 = 1380

1508 +damage
647 647 646 646 = 2586
1380 + 1508 * 0.8 = 2586.4

3/3 PwF
666 666 666 666 = 2664
2568.4 * 1.03 = 2663.992

3/3 PwF 5/5 FP
666 666 666 666 = 2664
2663.992 * 1.1 = 2930.3912

Research posted here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Proven Beta Stuff

Side note, all other DoTs behaved as expected. Fireball and FFB gain nothing from +damage, everyone other than LB gets PwF, Firepower, and Arcane Instability, and FFB gets Piercing Ice.