Do you happen to have the tooltip damage for Waterbolt as well?
Also, is the low end damage of Frostbolt 830 or 803? 830 seems very high considering it's listed as 799 at level 79.
601 to 673 damage range for Waterbolt. 830 was a typo for frostbolt, 803 was correct.
With that mana pool and waterbolt costing 163 it'll last 47.5 seconds chain-casting before going oom without sources of mana regeneration. Its own mana regen fully improved (assuming that talent doesn't change) should allow it to cast the full 60 seconds without issues.
Remember, also he wasn't wearing gear. With 30% of his Intellect going to the pet, the Water Elemental should easily be able to cast for the full 60 seconds without any regen at all.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Remember, also he wasn't wearing gear. With 30% of his Intellect going to the pet, the Water Elemental should easily be able to cast for the full 60 seconds without any regen at all.
Could you guys in Beta start a new thread, and really try to impress upon them how bad the Frostbolt glyph is? It's going to kill all other gameplay, besides raiding, in it's current form. The Mind-Flay glyph isn't that bad for spriests, because they at least have pushback protection.
Also they still haven't seemed to have recognized the Ice Lance rank 2 + Molten Fury bug, and if someone could bring that up again.
Could you guys in Beta start a new thread, and really try to impress upon them how bad the Frostbolt glyph is? It's going to kill all other gameplay, besides raiding, in it's current form. The Mind-Flay glyph isn't that bad for spriests, because they at least have pushback protection.
Also they still haven't seemed to have recognized the Ice Lance rank 2 + Molten Fury bug, and if someone could bring that up again.
There is no need to make a new thread. The big question about the frostbolt glyph that's yet to be answered is will it lose the 5 percent coefficient it gets for slowing the target. If it does, it is far better than the fireball glyph and is the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages.
Whether or not you choose to use the glyph should be up to the player. If you choose to immerse yourself in the game and feel that frostbolt should slow the target than that is your choice. For a long time now mages have fought for reasoning behind extra coefficient on our frostbolt when it has no effect on boss mods. Blizzard has finally given us a means to dps in pve without being punished for the pvp implications of the spell and I for one welcome it.
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
it's the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages with top-end gear.
I still don't see a problem, if you think it interferes with the majority of your game play, use a different glyph? Not every glyph is made to suit one set of play style and I think it's kinda silly for us to expect that.
I would also like to note, that making multiple threads about the same subject that has already been discussed is only going to clutter up the forums and make getting feedback slower.
There is no need to make a new thread. The big question about the frostbolt glyph that's yet to be answered is will it lose the 5 percent coefficient it gets for slowing the target. If it does, it is far better than the fireball glyph and is the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages.
Whether or not you choose to use the glyph should be up to the player. If you choose to immerse yourself in the game and feel that frostbolt should slow the target than that is your choice. For a long time now mages have fought for reasoning behind extra coefficient on our frostbolt when it has no effect on boss mods. Blizzard has finally given us a means to dps in pve without being punished for the pvp implications of the spell and I for one welcome it.
It's not the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages, it's the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages with top-end gear. Also the question of immersion never even enters the room. It's a question of destroying the defining feature of the entire frost tree. At least 12 talent points are directly or indirectly linked to frostbolt's chill effect. The reasoning behind removing the 5% snare penalty has nothing to do with the glyph either. Frostfire Bolt has a similar snare effect, and has no such penalty. As such, Frostbolt is no longer a Binary spell, and should not be subject to such a "damage tax." Frostbolt's chill effect has many PvE implications as well, and is not strictly a PvP benefit.
A new post is required, and I'm going to quote this (as it's says it better than I ever could:
The closest analogy I can think of would be a glyph for rogues that removes their ability to enter stealth (with the exception of vanish, to remove the threat dump as an issue) in exchange for extra direct-damage. Sure, in a boss fight, you lose minimal damage on the opener and end up coming out ahead. But in any situation other than a boss fight, your entire playstyle changes in a very negative way. Someone else mentioned the flavor of frost being lost with this glyph, and unless you've played a frost mage for a while yourself it may be difficult to get across just how crippling the removal of frostbolt's snare is to the spec.
There have been several good alternate solutions suggested, and most would still penalize Frostbolt in some way. We need to get this information up, and seen before the next mage talent/spell/glyph pass.
It's not the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages, it's the perfect glyph for raiding frost mages with top-end gear.
Your gear could be quest greens and Frostbolt's chill effect would still be worthless for the vast majority of raiding content. The glyph is a straight dps increase no matter how good your gear is and for dedicated raiders playing a dps class they should be considering every means possible to increase their dps in the first place. From Molten Core all the way to Sunwell the only encounter where the chill effect on Frostbolt was good is Lady Vashj. In that case a Shaman Frost Shocking was just as good. The chill isn't even needed on trash anywhere. If you don't like it, don't use it (and suffer the dps loss). But quit whining about it.
This is from a blue thread on Paladins and Vengeance but I thought it was revealing:
Many (though not all) talents are balanced around a 1% to maybe 1.5% dps increase per talent point.
He gives himself and out with the "though not all" comment, but it gives a little more insight in how Blizzard thinks of the talent trees.
In terms of mage talents I'm guessing ones like Cold Snap would be part of the "not all" category. But it would be interesting to see if other talents get tweaked to follow this rule.
Originally Posted by Nurru
If you don't like it, don't use it (and suffer the dps loss). But quit whining about it.
I agree with you up until this point. Inscriptions represent a new mechanic and it is prudent to consider the consequence on game play.
As you say, a raiding mage should do everything possible to increase their dps. Therefore there is no choice...raiding frost mages take the glyph to increase their dps by 5%. But the effects are too negative in all other content types to ignore so the frost mage must then remove the glyph after raids. There really is no other choice here, either. So frost mages are saddled with an additional cost above respec'ing. So the question becomes, why only them? If the frostbolt glyph is "fair" and then I would suggest a new fireball glyph:
Glyph of Fireball: Fireball damage is increased 5%, but the DOT is removed and the frost nova spell no longer functions.
Certainly the uses of frostnova in raiding content are limited, especially for a fire mage, to gimmick situations equivalent to Lady Vashj striders for a frost mage, so this isn't a big drawback.
Here's a "fair" shadowbolt glyph:
Glyph of Shadowbolt: Shadowbolt damage is increased 5%, but the warlock can no longer fear.
'Cause how often does a lock fear in raid content?
The real question is, I think, how easy is it to "turn off" a glyph and "turn it back on"? If it can be toggled, then this discussion is moot. If it cost a small fraction of flask/oil/food costs, then this discussion is moot. If it costs the same as a high-end enchant, then more discussion is warranted.
As you say, a raiding mage should do everything possible to increase their dps. Therefore there is no choice...raiding frost mages take the glyph to increase their dps by 5%. But the effects are too negative in all other content types to ignore so the frost mage must then remove the glyph after raids. There really is no other choice here, either. So frost mages are saddled with an additional cost above respec'ing. So the question becomes, why only them?
I think you're looking at this issue too narrowly actually. It's true the Frostbolt glyph has a larger drawback than the Fireball one, but you're not taking into account that the Fireball glyph is the only strong Fire specific glyph they have added. Frost has the 30 second cooldown reduction for Water Elemental, which is a strong boost to the tree. When looking at the two specs it's an apples to oranges comparison to only care about the Frostbolt vs Fireball glyph differences.
Last edited by Nurru : 08/24/08 at 1:00 PM.
Reason: How many times can I misspell glyph in the same post?
I think you're looking at this issue too narrowly actually. It's true the Frostbolt gylph has a larger drawback than the Fireball one, but you're not taking into account that the Fireball gylph is the only strong Fire specific glyph they have added. Frost has the 30 second cooldown reduction for Water Elemental, which is a strong boost to the tree. When looking at the two specs it's an apples to oranges comparison to only care about the Frostbolt vs Fireball glyph differences.
A few things wrong with this argument. First, Fireball and Frostbolt each account for a good 90% of their respective specs' damage. The quality of the glyphs for those two spells are far and away the most important consideration in PvE glyphs for both specs. The Fireball glyph is desirable in every situation; the Frostbolt glyph is undesirable in every situation but one. The dramatic inequity of the glyphs should be obvious to everyone. The only, and I mean literally the only thing that would make this difference fair is if the Frostbolt glyph used a Minor slot instead of a Major one, and that is not the case.
Second, the quality of the Water Elemental glyph is quite good...but the only way that quality matters is if it's meant to replace the Frostbolt glyph for PvE. Theoretically, it could, if strong enough. The Felguard glyph, for example, is probably going to be a good 4% DPS increase for a PvE Demo 'lock. That's competitive with the Fireball glyph. If the Water Elemental glyph provided a 4% overall DPS increase to the Frost Mage, then it, too, could be considered the primary PvE glyph for the Frost Mage. But if this is the case, what the hell is the Frostbolt glyph for? Because it sure as hell isn't for PvP or small group purposes, is it?
Third, arguing that it's OK for the Frostbolt glyph to be absolutely terrible because the Frost glyphs in general are stronger than the Fire glyphs is a bit premature, given that we only have 16 glyphs so far, 10 less than we can see on one or two of the other classes. We can be certain there are more to come.
Frostbolt glyph needs to be changed. Period. Changing the downside to a reduction in snare strength from 40% to 30% or 20%, or a 50% reduction in snare duration, would make me happy. Changing it to a 10% snare would make me at least content (it could still proc frostbite and would still be 30% talented).
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
I'm sorry but the bitching about the Frostbolt Glyph is completely over the top. I've spent more or less as much time raiding as Frost as I have as Fire, and I have to say that while giving up the snare is definitely a bigger downside than the Fireball Glyph, it's not the end of the world. It's not the "OMG I'm useless outside of raids!" that you guys are making it out to be, not even remotely. It could definitely stand to be changed, but the hyperbole in this thread is completely absurd.
For World PvE most Frost Mages are going to be pulling with Frostfire Bolt anyway. FFB has a range 4 yards longer than Frostbolt and it puts a DoT up on the target. Permafrost and Chilled to the Bone both effect FFB, so there is your 60% slow. The only real issue is the loss of Frostbite and the subsequent Shatter crits. You could just do all your farming with FFB and save Frostbolt for snare immune mobs. Heck they could code Frostbolt to proc Frostbite at 0% chill as a 'special case.'
The desire to change the bolt is not bitching or whining.
Lhivera listed a number of valid reason. So have many others. There's nothing to be gained by repeating them here--I'll focus my efforts on the beta forums where there is a chance to influence the devs on this matter. That all said, the number one reason the glyph is bad is that it removes one of the primary characteristics of frost mages. Blizzard has now said that they develop games first based on "what feels right" and then tweaks numbers later. This glyph feels wrong.
None of these abilities are hugely important in raids. I can imagine glyphs for all four of the above that prevent that defining characteristic yet are so good, raiders would all take the glyph 100% of the time. Nobody would accept a rogue glyph that takes away stealth.
I really don't understand the resistance. I've seen 3 or 4 suggestions for frostbolt glyph that are all perfectly fair, balanced, and reasonable. Why argue to keep something that is clearly upsetting to people that play the spec and has easy solutions?
Specific math question: I don't think that pulling with FFB is advantageous. If I am spec'ed 0/0/71 my frostbolt is fast (~2.2 sec cast with haste) and empowered (+10% of spell power damage, +4% crit). I have no fire talents so that fire DOT isn't augmented in any way. Back of the envelope suggests to me that deep frost mages should still pull with frostbolt. Am I missing something?
I don't like butting in but I think it has to be done. You are comparing Class Defining Aspects to the aspects of a talent tree. Once again, these are apples and oranges. Maybe if you compared it to paladin multi-target tanking or druid healing over time then you could make an argument, but as it stands...it fails logically.
No one is saying that the drawbacks of the glyphs are proportionate, but comparing it to stealth, shapeshifting, fear just looks idiotic from my point of view and detracts from the argument itself.
While I think it would be a positive if the glyph was changed it's not like frost mages lose access to CoC,FFB,Imp Blizzard and Pet Nova.
Besides I'm struggling to find a good frost raiding build that can accommodate things like permafrost and frostbite, so for solo/5 man purposes I'd propose that the loss is alot less than made out to be.
If you choose a non optimal raid spec then this glyph perhaps isn't for you, 5% more dmg will rarely make the difference in 5 man or solo content where the snare of frostbolt shines.
It's a new profession though and I'm sure they'll find their feet with the power level and trade offs of the effects after a couple of iterations.
What exactly is the point of speccing frost if the glyph just turns your main spell into fireball with a different graphic? Because using a water elemental is oh so fascinating?
The whole reason for the spell to even exist is that it slows the target. If you take that away then you might as well take the snare away from frost nova and increase its damage, take the disorient away from dragon's breath and increase it's damage, take the life draining from drain life and increase it's damage etc
Not to mention it's just a boring glyph. If they're going to remove the slow they should make it do something else rather than just more damage. Perhaps it no longer slows, but has an increased chance to freeze the target or an additional chance to proc fingers of frost, or put up a free ice barrier or something a bit interesting that is in keeping with the frost tree.
The kind of things I was looking for were, "Your cone of cold no longer slows, but now knocks back targets 20 yards." Something to really distinguish your mage from others and open up the possibilities of a different type of gameplay.
I don't see what anyone would get out of speccing frost over speccing fire if they couldn't even kite. I mean surely everyone knows that frost does less damage than fire, but the reason they spec frost when raiding is because they want a different type of gameplay outside of the raid. So if you're a career raider (the type of people would take this glyph, because people doing 5 mans, PvP and soloing certainly wouldn't), then why would you even spec frost? Because you think blue is prettier than orange?
I don't see what anyone would get out of speccing frost over speccing fire if they couldn't even kite. I mean surely everyone knows that frost does less damage than fire, but the reason they spec frost when raiding is because they want a different type of gameplay outside of the raid. So if you're a career raider (the type of people would take this glyph, because people doing 5 mans, PvP and soloing certainly wouldn't), then why would you even spec frost? Because you think blue is prettier than orange?
I assure you that the blue is prettier than orange crowd do exist
On a more serious note, a lot of discussion in this topic has been why wouldn't your first mage in a raid be frost. Single spec provides Winter's Chill, Imp Scorch and Imp Water Elemental, there is also nothing stopping these mages using frostfire bolt for single target kiting as the frost talents are as valid for that spell as for frostbolt.
Most of this discussion will be moot if glyphs are easily/cheaply swappable but really all this 'OMG it's like rogues losing stealth, druids losing shapeshifting, warriors having to wear cloth' needs to stop, drawing silly comparisons are not helpful but I imagine feedback of the real implications would be.
I think one large consideration being ignored by many detractors in the thread here is that even "career raiders" are going to be running 5-mans and soloing for several months after the release of LK. Heroics and soloing quests/farming for crafted/rep epics in parallel with entry level raiding is pretty much a necessity, and this glyph as currently implemented will be considered a necessity for a raid spot at the same time, which is why we're saying it will require deactivation and reactivation to be usable.
A year into LK when a career raider can just log out outside the raid instance and log back in to continue raiding the next night because he never, ever does anything else? Sure, it may be fine. While there's still rep, crafting, and heroic gear to farm? Not even close.
I fail to see why comparing rogue stealth to frost snare is at all different. It's core to the gameplay experience for both classes.
What exactly is the point of speccing frost if the glyph just turns your main spell into fireball with a different graphic? Because using a water elemental is oh so fascinating?
Frost has many differences to fire, you don't spec frost just to get the slowing ability attributed to frostbolt. Frost gets more of it's crits up front, cold snap and icy veins, and once wotlk hits, winters chill and water elemental for many more people as well.
Originally Posted by itchytf
The whole reason for the spell to even exist is that it slows the target. If you take that away then you might as well take the snare away from frost nova and increase its damage, take the disorient away from dragon's breath and increase it's damage, take the life draining from drain life and increase it's damage etc
This seems like quite an overreaction to me. Frostbolt does damage, and also slows the target. Frost nova snares targets, and also deals damage. An appropriate comparison would be to take the damage away from frost nova to make the snare last longer, or something. Mind you, that change would be loved by both PvP'ers and PvE'ers alike, so maybe it's not quite as appropriate. Either way, I think saying that "the whole reason for the spell to even exist is that it slows the target" is somewhat narrow-minded and quite an inflated exaggeration.
Frost has many differences to fire, you don't spec frost just to get the slowing ability attributed to frostbolt. Frost gets more of it's crits up front, cold snap and icy veins, and once wotlk hits, winters chill and water elemental for many more people as well.
This seems like quite an overreaction to me. Frostbolt does damage, and also slows the target. Frost nova snares targets, and also deals damage. An appropriate comparison would be to take the damage away from frost nova to make the snare last longer, or something. Mind you, that change would be loved by both PvP'ers and PvE'ers alike, so maybe it's not quite as appropriate. Either way, I think saying that "the whole reason for the spell to even exist is that it slows the target" is somewhat narrow-minded and quite an inflated exaggeration.
Yes frost does have large differences, but in a raid environment they're not really noticable. You're either spamming one bolt or another most of the time. The playstyle will change a bit in Lich King, which is nice - throwing in an ice lance or deep freeze on FoF proc and an instant fireball every now and then.
What I was meaning when I said "the whole point of frostbolt is that it slows" was that we already have a bolt spell just for damage in fireball, so surely the design around frostbolt was that it's a bolt attack that slows. Take away the slow and it's just a bolt attack and loses the frost part of the frostbolt. It's no longer a unique spell even in the mage's own spellbook, so something a bit different would be more appreciated IMO.
Originally Posted by Last_Human
I assure you that the blue is prettier than orange crowd do exist
On a more serious note, a lot of discussion in this topic has been why wouldn't your first mage in a raid be frost.
With the recent blue post about only needing/using 2 mana batteries per raid I don't think we need to worry about being forced into frost. Winter's Chill does remain though, which is a bit good to pass up. Hmm...
I honestly don't remember when i last used Frostbolt for snare. I happen to strongly prefer cone of cold. It's stronger and it's instant. When i REALLY need a ranged snare, i'll still have a frostfire bolt.
On another hand, having my frostbolt part of shatter combo hit 5% harder is undeniably a really nice thing.
I have a different problem with glyps tho. If swapping them is an expensivething to do, then we basically have another form of respeccing. Does wow really need more methods to lock people in their specs?
With Blizzard allowing more and more classes to share the same raid buff/debuff I'm wondering what are they up to concerning spell damages buff and debuff.
For melee classes It's been pretty clear:
5% crit aura : Feral in cat or bear form / Fury Warrior Agi/str : Shaman totem / Deathknight (it seems it'll be baseline maybe a talent to improve it) 10% Ap : Eh Shaman / Blood Deathknight. 20% Melee haste : Shaman / Frost Deathknight. AP : Battleshout from warrior (may be added to an other class...maybe Expose Weakness from hunter changed to a buff that doesn't stack with Battleshout?) Armor debuff : Warrior or Rogue (the new glyph may make it easier for the rogue to maintain it)
Overall it's almost polished, every buff/debuff can be brought by 2 different class/spec.
Concerning spell damage:
5% crit aura : Moonkin only so far. 3% crit 6% damage : Elem Shaman 13% damage all school : Improved COE or Unholy DK 5% spell haste :Shaman only 10% Frost vulnerability : Deathknight 10% Shadow vulnerability : Shadow Priest 5% Damage all school : Shadow Priest 10% Frost/Fire/Arcane damage : Mage 10% Arcane/Fire/Frost crit : Mage 6% Nature/Arcane damage : Moonkin
It seems there is a lot of work to do concerning spell damage buff and debuff. What I could see blizzard do :
-Elem shaman totem changed to 5% crit , doesn't stack with Moonkin aura.
-5% spell haste from totem changed to 5% spell damage and healing, doesn't stack with Misery (Misery changed to a raid buff) or Misery changed to haste.
Concerning School-debuff I don't really see an easy solution,
-Frost vulnerability from deathknight shouldn't stack with Scorch debuff (maybe it's already like this).
-Giving a Scorch-like debuff to destruction warlock (+10% Shadow / Fire damage) that wouldn't stack with Shadow Vulnerabilty / Scorch.
-Moonkin Debuff changed to 10% Nature/Arcane damage , doesn't stack with Scorch.
-Stormstrike debuff changed down to 10% Nature damage but charges removed, doesn't stack with Moonkin Debuff.
Winterchill changed back to Frost only so it doesn't have such a big impact on the raid (slight impact on Frost DK but that wouldn't make Winterchill mandatory). I know of course this would impact our Fb/FFb dps a lot but class abilites / self buff may balance that.
With those changes we would get:
10% Frost damage : Deathknight or Scorch 10% Fire damage : Destruction lock or Scorch 10% Arcane damage : Moonkin or Scorch 10% Shadow damage : Shadow Priest or Destruction lock 10% Nature damage : Moonkin or Eh shaman
What do you think Blizzard will do? Note : retribution paladin buffs are still stacking with everything and may also be looked at.
Just tested with a shadow priest:
SW:P is reduced from 18s / 6ticks to 9s / 3 ticks.
Mind Flay stayed at 3 ticks - likely because it's channeled.
VE reduced from 60s to 30s. As expected.
VT reduced from 15s / 5 ticks to 7.5s / 2 ticks.
The 3rd tick, the "pontential fractional tick" is lost.
Let players turn glyphs on and off; problem solved
Do you know how they work? I don't. Your tongue-in-cheek response might be exactly how they are planning to make it all work but until they are fully implemented I think it really is a bit premature for every Frostmage to be going Bat-shit over this Glyph.
What if they are swappable at any time outside of combat and when removed they just sit in your bag until you want to swap them back in? What if you get to utilize only one of the 3 Major Glyphs at a time and only one of the Minor ones and you can turn whichever one you want on whenever you want when you are out of combat (this is how I envision it working)? Then the Frostbolt Glyph becomes the PvE one and the Water Elemental Glyph becomes the definitive PvP glyph for Frostmages and if a PvE mage needs to snare something ala Vashj they will merely activate their Water Elemental Glyph (or another major Glyph) instead of their Frostbolt one.
Let them implement the system and then judge whether that specific piece of the puzzle is unfair or not.
08/23/08, 7:10 PM
