I would also appreciate a clarification about ignite spell(edit=talent).
I know there is a bug which introduces loss of damage but what is the real deal? Does the second critted spell erases the former ignite of first critted spell and applies only the one of second critted spell? If so, thats a big problem :S
With relation to the above two questions i was wondering how many mages are required in raid specced for ToW to make a slow(/scorch?) slave viable? I was looking at a similar build to the "raid support" one identified, with high survivability due to the importance of keeping slow up for the other mages.
I would advise you to search a bit before posting questions like this. It is answered very nicely in the original post.
Originally Posted by Roywyn
It would require about 10 mages for a "1 Slow, rest Torment/Fireball" setup to outdamage an "all Frostfire" setup.
Ain't it about time we evacuate this thread by the way? Most of the stuff posted recently can be handled in either the simple questions thread or is worthy of a seperate thread in my opinion.
Realistic builds: (these builds should be close to what we could use)
5068 Mage_FrostFire - actions=scorch,debuff=1/living_bomb/combustion/icy_veins/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/frostfire_bolt
4612 Mage_Arcane - action=arcane_power/arcane_missiles,barrage=1/presence_of_mind,pyroblast/arcane_barrage/fire_ball
4606 Mage_Fire - action=scorch,debuff=1/living_bomb/combustion/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/fire_ball
I keep getting stuck on the crit vs haste debate. From what I have read some say haste is slightly better than crit right now and others the opposite.
My mind just wants to see crits due to pyro procs but then again haste will increase the amount of those procs too.
Should one pass on a massive 1% crit for 1% haste?
I notice some pieces have like 20 more spell damage at the cost of me loosing 1.3% crit or haste, is such a low sp increase worth the loss of 1 of those 2 other stats?
I guess one should balance both but I still can't help on passing on haste gear to pick up crit and feel that maybe I am doing the wrong thing.
Use a simulation like everyone else does and work out for you which items offer you the best benefit.
Gentlemen, please keep this thread free of requests for blind, sweeping statements that all solve every issue. Asking "is haste better than crit?" assumes (1) there's a fast and easy reply to this and (2) it hasn't been asked before.
Both of these are untrue, and such questions don't help this thread progress our knowledge of post-3.0 mage TC.
Personally I found a FFB spec with low crit to be less than optimal. With hitcap I'm focusing on SP whilst trying to find pieces that have as much crit on them as possible.
Generally, that's where I stand as well. At the moment. SP trumps all, Hit trumps Crit, and Crit trumps anything else. For me with my gear.
In practice, it really feels like I need to maintain a base crit to really pummel the MOBs so I have substituted a couple items with crit. If the simulators are right, and it is hurting my DPS, I really haven't noticed it. In fact, it does seem to have provided a marked improvement in my DPS. Even if it doesn't, it's fun to see Hot Streak proc.
As far as different specs go, I really haven't seen much difference in damage between fire and FF. I did some dummy testing for 60 seconds in the UC and fire barely beat FF (less than %5) with my current gear. The big difference between the two was that I was completely out of mana in 60 seconds with fire, and not even close to being out with FF.
By the way, I'm new to playing a mage, and only have 19 days played on the toon. I'm sure alot of my gear is going to change substantially as more people on my server reach 80. I wish they would hurry up already.
Last edited by Vees : 11/25/08 at 3:17 PM.
Reason: Grammar
I haven't personally been stacking crit, but I surely prefer it to haste. There are benefits that don't necessarily affect the patchwerk style fight, like having it proc during mobile phases and "get out of the fire" moments. During dance dance heigen i can scorch and fireblast without issue at all during half the splashes, more if i elect to blink rather than run, and instant pyroblasts popping up are very welcome. Furthermore crit improves mana efficiency - granted up to this point I've not seen blizzard's "we want you to manage mana more" philosophy come into effect for mages, but it's a nice perk. Crit has always felt superior during AoE due to the low spell power and haste coefficients for instant casts.
Why the Heck does Rawr rate Items with Int and Spi so high when I see closly to zero benefit with these 2 stats in a Frostfire build.
Is Rawr just wrong or am I missing something?
Maybe cause I benefit more from mana regen buffs with more int?
For example is the Deathchill cloak rated relativly low when I dont see any upgrades to it myself.
Should I rate Int maybe a bit higher then the about 0 I rate it at the moment for myself?
You will have set the fight up wrong in RAWR - either you have the fight duration going on too long, or you aren't giving yourself the buffs you will be getting. (In particular, make sure you have Replenishment ticked on).
Can anyone confirm for me that an item such as the Sundial of the Exiled and Dying Curse procs stack or does the greater proc overwite the lesser? 1 person says no on wowhead, another says yes...
Can anyone confirm for me that an item such as the Sundial of the Exiled and Dying Curse procs stack or does the greater proc overwite the lesser? 1 person says no on wowhead, another says yes...
I got both and they do stack. They also stack with Forge Ember.
I've searched the thread to the best of my ability, forgive me if I missed it but..
Is anyone else experiencing problems with Mirror Image? Specifically bosses aggro'ing them as if they taunted. My GM has since banned Mirror Image because of this, and we can't figure out what's going on. I don't believe it's a threat thing, since their damage is negligable. Any feedback on this?
I've searched the thread to the best of my ability, forgive me if I missed it but..
Is anyone else experiencing problems with Mirror Image? Specifically bosses aggro'ing them as if they taunted. My GM has since banned Mirror Image because of this, and we can't figure out what's going on. I don't believe it's a threat thing, since their damage is negligable. Any feedback on this?
This behavior has been seen and the reason isn't known. We've got speculations, anecdotal advice, and such, but the biggest suspect so far is buggy threat for the images.
My advice regarding Mirror Image: don't use it if you are anywhere near the aggro of your tank. I think someone said they might be treated as if they were in melee range (and thus pull aggro at 110%), this could be it. Today I used MI at something above 100% threat of my tank (not sure how much exactly). The Mob run over to my MI, destroyed it and returned to my tank.
Mirror Image and its threat behaviour should be subject to further investigation.
So Roywyn, I've read your google docs page where you discuss a 52/19/0 build, yet on one of your posts, you call it the:
- 5478 DPS 53/18/0 Arcane Torment*
build. What is the recommended build? I notice everyone refers to the 53/18/0 build - what is the consensus build, as in what talents do you recommend for raiding?
Also, if I was to take three points for prismatic cloak (just for BGs), what 3 talents would you eliminate from the arcane tree to stay semi-valuable in raids?
This behavior has been seen and the reason isn't known. We've got speculations, anecdotal advice, and such, but the biggest suspect so far is buggy threat for the images.
It happened to me a couple times already, it seems to happen when you try to use the images when you are very close from pulling agro from range (likely 10% above the tank threat but not pulling agro due to the 30% "bonus" from range).
My speculation is that when you use the images , they will get your threat and they are unaffected by the agro reduction from the range and then will pull agro from the tank.
I have been able to reproduce this a few times but It would requier a lot more testing.
The only time my mirror image has gotten aggro was when I was above the tank in threat. However sometimes i'm above the tank and they don't pull aggro so there isn't an obvious answer without a lot of testing I don't think. My current theory is they range check is wrong and if I'm 10% above the tank they get aggro although with tank threat as it is now and a misdirect I need quite a bit of luck to get my threat that high even with combustion and trinkets at my current gear level.
The only time my mirror image has gotten aggro was when I was above the tank in threat. However sometimes i'm above the tank and they don't pull aggro so there isn't an obvious answer without a lot of testing I don't think. My current theory is they range check is wrong and if I'm 10% above the tank they get aggro although with tank threat as it is now and a misdirect I need quite a bit of luck to get my threat that high even with combustion and trinkets at my current gear level.
Yeah that is pretty much what i've been seeing. This hasn't been an issue until my gear started to get better, and in turn my threat getting higher. Thanks for the feedback, i'll be sure to test this theory in the coming days.
We changed how the game handles debuffs (i.e. negative state effects on targets) on creatures with Wrath of the Lich King. The old hard cap of 40 debuffs on a target no longer effectively exists. You can now apply way more debuffs to a target without them dropping off before their duration expires. The default WoW UI will not normally display all these debuffs, but they really are still there!
Since the ignite damage is calculated from the time the time the spell is casted the blue quote above in my eyes means that giving all ignites a separate debuff would fix the ignite munching. I haven't seen this discussion on the US forum yet (I can't post there).
The last official I have seen is this:
We are aware of the problem (of course). It's just not easy to fix.
That doesn't really seem like a valid excuse anymore.
As far as I know, they made the limit 60 not 40. Sure, it helps a lot, but warranting an individual ignite for each crit is likely not the solution if the limit is indeed 60.
edit: FWIW, i still believe the solution I proposed would work.
1- Make each ignite use its own debuff
2- Make ignite tick every second, rather than every 2 seconds. (ie: the ignite damage is dealt over 2s rather than 4s)
Last edited by manly : 12/05/08 at 1:51 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I wonder if cap being raised to to 60 opens it up so that even duplicated debuffs, Imp. Scorch/Winters Chill, while not visible still be there, so if the mage that started the stack can die and not ruin it for everybody.
11/25/08, 8:26 AM
