Due to the FFB "feature" (one might say bug) of double-dipping into the hit of elem precision, for FFB builds, you now get a situation where hit is soft-capped. To clarify:
-If you have less than 8% Hit, then Hit rating is notably better than crit and haste ratings and probably spellpower as well (depending on your gear).
-If you have anywhere between 8 and 11% Hit, Hit rating now stops affecting FFB. FFB does about 55-75% of your damage, and this shifts hit rating far below crit as well as haste ratings.
-11% Hit is the cap with 3/3 EP and 3% raidbuffed hit, so there's no real value to it after that.
Currently I'm trying to stick at 8% Hit, but with my choice of gear out of the existing drops I'll have between 9 and 10% as soon as I get all I want. This soft-capping of Hit leads to e.g. Sundial of the Exiled being a better trinket than Dying Curse for FFB.
If TTW works on bosses, 18/53/0 is the top spec by like 10% more dps than what we had before.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
If TTW works on bosses, 18/53/0 is the top spec by like 10% more dps than what we had before.
By around 5% more like it unless they scrap Razorice.
Fire also consumes much more mana, which may or may not be of any consequence.
The Arcane changes look very interesting.
But I'm not sure about their value, the stacking damage increases are good, but unstacked Arcane Blast is garbage and stacked Arcane Blast means that you'll cast fewer Arcane Barrages
We'll have to see how it turns out.
By around 5% more like it unless they scrap Razorice.
Fire also consumes much more mana, which may or may not be of any consequence.
The Arcane changes look very interesting.
But I'm not sure about their value, the stacking damage increases are good, but unstacked Arcane Blast is garbage and stacked Arcane Blast means that you'll cast fewer Arcane Barrages
We'll have to see how it turns out.
IF the Arcane blast stack works for the full dmg of Arcane missiles wouldn't a Arcane blast / AM rotation be better than using barrage?
I'm very happy about the change to TtW. With Warrior Tanks keeping Thunder Clap on mobs at all time, that spec can be quite interesting. I'm also unsure if the mana issue will be more of an issue, and that we will have to start stacking MP5 to keep up our mana.
+ We need 3% hit to get hitcapped with frostfire then cause it won't double dib anymore?
+ Same rotation? Living bomb scorch, hot streaks, frostfire?
Or am i missing some stuff?
The only change I would do to the new build is drop dragon's breath for flame throwing (for longer scorches/living bombs) but beyond that, that is all I can imagine in a build. Possibly moving the point in DB to another one in arcane impact for an extra 2%?
The arcane changes are quite good in my opinion. Most intresting part will be the question: 'what rotation to use'.
1x Arcane Blast, 1x Arcane Barrage rotation will get a significant boost. An other option can be 4x Arcane Blast followed by Arcane Barrage and/or Missle Barrage when it proqs.
Especialy with the 20% proq rate of Missle Barrage, it can be an discussion if Arcane Mages should stack up to 45% for optimal bennifit from the proq. Arcane Barrage can be used as an alternative when Missle Barrage diddn't proqed or as filler after Missle Barrage.
The arcane changes are quite good in my opinion. Most intresting part will be the question: 'what rotation to use'.
1x Arcane Blast, 1x Arcane Barrage rotation will get a significant boost. An other option can be 4x Arcane Blast followed by Arcane Barrage and/or Missle Barrage when it proqs.
Especialy with the 20% proq rate of Missle Barrage, it can be an discussion if Arcane Mages should stack up to 45% for optimal bennifit from the proq. Arcane Barrage can be used as an alternative when Missle Barrage diddn't proqed or as filler after Missle Barrage.
From the math that Vontre posted in the other thread it appears:
In burn phases you can stack 3x and then Abar and repeat.
Make sure to still always use Mbar whenever it procs. immediately, but it is not worth interrupting a cast for.
Normal mana-saving rotation can still be AB -> Abar etc
From what I understand without having the crit modifiers for FFB it isn't useful with TTW.
TTW build would turn back into a fireball build. Something like this: 18/53/0
Also FFB doesn't receive + damage from Spell Impact
Depending on mana, this may be the way to go. Only thing your really losing is the range on your spells, which can be a big deal, but also something you may be able to work around
I got some questions to be answered:
1 - Should I keep Netherwind Presence? Why?
2 - Should I spend talent point on Arcane Stability? Why?
3 - What's the best stats Deep Arcane now?
I got some questions to be answered:
1 - Should I keep Netherwind Presence? Why?
2 - Should I spend talent point on Arcane Stability? Why?
3 - What's the best stats Deep Arcane now?
Rawr answers 1 and 3. Pushback protection is good, I'd never want to play without it.
It's not really necessary in current raid encounters, but design may change.
Drop the junk Spirit talent and get Magic Attunement. Range and a free raid buff.
An another note, this is not the "Help Me!" thread.
First post. Ok, so patch 3.03 is out, I have read the notes but I don't know exactly how to interpret them. I'd like to know how things work but also how to test them if you don't mind. I don't know much about how zit works etc and if something like that gets edited into the first or second post (how-to on theorycrafting) that would be pretty cool.
There's a few points in the patch notes that I don't understand or know exactly how to test.
#1: Focus magic works as intended now
I thought it was fine before... what was changed? (I haven't tested this but I don't want to respec, in case anyone knows the answer already.)
#2: I think something was mentioned W.R.T. burnout and LB.
How is mana return / spell cost calc'd for LB when it crits? Is the mana cost divided into explosion / dot damage, or is it just based on the total base mana of the spell? When you're looking at mana costs etc are you visually observing your mana bar or does it show up in the log, etc (how do you test this)?
#3: LB's explosion will be properly classified.
Does this mean that it's considered lvl 80 now?
If TTW works on bosses, 18/53/0 is the top spec by like 10% more dps than what we had before.
Fireball is pretty far behind without Torment the Weak, and what sims I've seen show that it only gets a little bit ahead with 12% added to Fireball -- certainly not 10% ahead. In fact, there's no mathematical way for TtW to push Fireball ahead by 10%, even if it was already equal with FFB, which it isn't, since Fireball/FFB are only about 70% of your damage, give or take. In order for a 10% advantage to be possible from this change, Fireball would've had to be equal already AND it would have to be 83% of your damage done.
Originally Posted by Vontre
Magegraf indicates that, in Manly's gear, frostfire bolt and fireball builds are competitive. Fireball has 1% dps lead, frostfire has much more mana. This DOES account for the full rdps benefit of Focus Magic.
So Magegraf claims a 1% difference, and SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code shows a 2% difference. Those differences are likely due to gear choice differences. That's close enough to conclude that the choice between these two builds after TtW goes live is pretty much whether you prefer less single target RNG, or the ability to aoe stuff competitively with hunters/spriests.
Last edited by Sancus : 12/12/08 at 1:23 PM.
<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl
Fireball is pretty far behind without Torment the Weak, and what sims I've seen show that it only gets a little bit ahead with 12% added to Fireball -- certainly not 10% ahead.
He did not say it is 10% ahead of Frostfire. He stated that it is 10% ahead of "what we had before." This is more or less accurate, seeing as the top DPS for frostfire (without rune of razor ice) hovers around 5700-5800, and Fireball is around 5100-5200 without Torment the Weak.
Well, in any case, given the choice I don't see much incentive to go fireball spec. You get worse mana efficiency (ffb mana cost is pretty hard to beat), worse aoe, and get to rely on other people to keep your ttw up. In revenge you gain some rather small potential dps increase, and less RNG dps.
Its probably better this way anyway, since ffb builds are far more flexible and enjoyable.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Yeah, I mean, Fireball is still completely viable if you are a die-hard fireball lover. It does have the advantage of slightly increased consistency, and a little more mobile damage. What's important to take away from this patch is that for the first time arcane is truly viable. Its flexibility and utility are now slightly higher than ffb, with slightly lower "patchwerk dps". Instead of just being less flexible and less dps like in all of TBC.
Additionally, consider the following builds for AoE:
14.57.0 leaves you 4 points short of Torment the Weak. To pick it up, you'd have to remove 2 points from Flame Throwing, 1 point from Burning Soul (which isn't a good idea anyway), and then your next best option would be removing a point from Playing with Fire, so that you could reach 18.53.0. This ensures that you still have 3 points in WiF, 3 points in Pyromaniac (you'll need the 30% regen if you're using Firestarter), and maintains a decent single-target DPS.
Things are far, far easier for Frostfire. Removing points from Frost Channeling and 1 point from Elemental Precision gives you the points you need for Firestarter, Dragon's Breath, and Blast Wave in a 0.57.14 build. Comparitively then, you're losing 1% hit and 10% less mana cost, vs 12% more damage on Fireball. Because TTW adds such substantial DPS to the Fireball build, it's imperative to have 3 points in it.
You must have at least 14 points in the frost tree for single-target frostfire DPS to be viable. But you must have 18 in arcane tree to make Fireball viable. I've raided without Frost Channeling, and it's very doable, and this was 10-man as well. I didn't have nearly as many mana return options as I would in a 25-man setting. With the coming patch, frostfire builds will have 30% in-combat regen as well. That's just icing on the cake.
It comes down to Fireball spec still being obsolete. It sacrifices range and threat reduction to make AoE viable and maintain single-target DPS. Frostfire specs effortlessly work around this. Frostfire is already lower mana cost, so it benefits even more liberally from Pyromaniac's in-combat regen than Fireball does, in that it is almost a necessity for Fireball to have it.
The change to Torment the Weak and Pyromaniac brought Fireball spec to the line where Frostfire Bolt has been for quite some time. Yet all the benefits of Frostfire still outweigh Fireball, and it wouldn't make any sense to switch.
12/06/08, 9:49 PM
