Oh? Please do tell, with juicy details!


Also updated the first post.
[Conqueror's Kirin Tor Hood], 2T8 has 25% proc, 45s CD. 4T8 not known.
[Spark of Hope] is multiplied by talents and the Arcane Blast debuff.
It is a massive mana saver for Blast spam, yet only a mediocre DPS trinket.

I actually was curious for myself how much of a difference glyphing for LB vs Scorch would be, assuming presence of a warlock w/ imp. shadow bolt. Plugging in my current gear and using default options in Rawr, I ran four different scenarios where I switched Scorch & LB Glyphs (and used Molten Armor & FFB for other 2 glyphs):
1) Glyphed for LB, Imp. SB Warlock Present (Yes Crit Bonus) -- 5516 DPS
2) Glyphed for LB, No Imp. SB Warlock Present (No Crit Bonus) -- 5206 DPS
3) Glyphed for Scorch, Maintain Scorch (Yes Crit Bonus, Presumes no Imp. SB Warlock) -- 5191 DPS
4) Glyphed for Scorch, Do NOT Maintain Scorch (Yes Crit Bonus, Presumes a Imp. SB Warlock PRESENT) -- 5234 DPS

The comparison of #1 and #2 shows a 309 DPS difference, which is almost 6% DPS difference.

Using my gear and numbers, I would say that if I wanted to be purely selfish, glyphing for LB is best. Even if I don't have imp. SB Warlock present, the DPS is still comparable to both scenarios if I had glyphed for Scorch, but the DPS output if Imp. SB Warlock is present is very large.

However, keeping a raid in mind, I would say that glyphing for scorch is by far the better bet if you are unsure as to raid composition on a weekly basis (unless you don't mind switching glyphs everytime, but at the moment, LB glyphs in my server are real hard to find). If there is no Imp. SB Warlock, even 1 other DPS makes your scorch rotation worth it (considering fairly geared).

You can just go to the Comparison Charts > Glyphs and see how much DPS Glyph of Living Bomb is adding. The same will show for Glyph of Molten Armor and Glyph of Fireball. As for which glyph to replace with Glyph of Scorch, I actually already extensively looked over this (see this post).

One problem is that Rawr does not model Scorch's ramp up time. The only thing Glyph of Scorch is doing is making it so you cast 1 less Scorch. I'm not even sure it's doing that. Set the fight length to 29 seconds. Without Glyph of Improved Scorch, look at the "By Spell" breakdown and you'll see 1 Scorch. Increase it to 60 seconds and it's 2 Scorches -- Rawr doesn't model the initial ramp up of Scorch. Now turn on Glyph of Improved Scorch and look at the number of Scorches. It goes from 2.08 Scorches at 60 seconds to 2 Scorches. And at 29 seconds, it goes from 1 to 0.97.

Haven't we established that the decision is not between glyphing scorch and glyphing LB? My understanding is that LB is the best glyph. If you're going to glyph scorch, you need to choose between dropping fireball glyph or dropping molten armor glyph. Enthorn has done the math for that in this post.

Edit: Enthorn beat me to it.

Yes but the only bosses that really took us more than a handful of attempts were Mimiron, where I liked being able to evoc after the P3/P4 transition AE, and Yogg-Saron, where I didn't want to gamble on getting a lot of the mana drain ticks (a few times I got screwed due to various factors) and not having evocation available.

Regardless it's sort of a silly thing: we all know how to mitigate the risk on the raid, none of us are dumb, but it's similarly silly to deny the impact on the raid if your guild is fast enough at re-engaging (which we are and I'm sure plenty of other guilds are.)

It's high enough priority that GC says they are trying to hotfix it though, so it won't be a factor for much longer.


Rather than more back and forth on this though, a different FM topic:

I'm curious what other mages found mana-wise in Ulduar, if anyone actually raided Fireball. I did the spec switching so I don't have any direct fireball experience.

Or asked another way: Do we have any real-world data about what the world looks like when FM is hotfixed?

I tried some numbers again replacing either FFB or MA glyph w/ Scorch... and my DPS numbers seem to be a bit different from your FFB Spirit threshold number. All the numbers below are modeled by loading my current toon with RAWR'S default buffs active, as well as toggling Focus Magic (duel spec) and forcing Molten Armor to be used. I observed these scenarios and numbers (@ 635 spirit):

Scenario 1 -- Optimal Setup, Warlock w/ Imp. SB Present
LB, MA, FFB -- 5704.90

Scenario 2 -- Warlock w/ Imp. SB Missing, Glyphed for LB, MA, FFB
Maintaining Scorch -- 5661.75
Not maintaining scorch -- 5391.72

Scenario 3 -- Glyph for Scorch & Maintain Scorch
3A) LB, Scorch, MA -- 5516.56
3B) LB, Scorch, FFB -- 5485.72

Scenario 4 -- Glyph for Scorch & Not Maintaining Scorch (eg Imp. SB Warlock Present)
4A) LB, Scorch, MA -- 5550.33
4B) LB, Scorch, FFB -- 5528.48

Scenario 2 has to be taken w/ a grain of salt because it's simulated over a 5 minute fight and assumes constant DPS. An actual fight, shorter or longer, with movement and changing targets will obviously be different... it does make me think though, even if I don't have another source of +crit chance, perhaps going LB/MA/FFB and using scorch x5 is still more beneficial than actually glyphing for Scorch, long as the fight allows me to maintain scorch realistically.

As to the scenarios where I have to glyph for Scorch, my Rawr is showing in both cases that glyphing for MA is better than FFB, and this is with 635 spirit. I decided to test out Scenario 3 (seems the most logical scenario, as since you wouldn't glyph for scorch if you don't plan on maintaining it) at different spirit levels, and this is what I got:

Remove Blessing of Kings -- 586 Spirit
MA - 158.66 DPS
FFB - 144.80 DPS

Remove Divine Spirit -- 556 Spirit
MA - 150.71 DPS
FFB - 144.87 DPS

Remove Divine Spirit & Blessing of Kings -- 506 Spirit
MA - 136.58 DPS
FFB - 144.49 DPS

It makes sense that FFB DPS is the same, as since it shouldn't be effected by Spirit. MA's DPS was linearly effected by spirit such that: MA DPS = 0.2767*Spirit - 3.336. By setting that equal to FFB's DPS of ~144.8, I get a Spirit of 536 as my break even point.

@Kyth

I've raided upto and including Mimiron as TTW/FB - 3/3 SotM over 1/3 + 2/3 Arc Med - and the only encounter where I had mana issues was because I screwed up and Evo'd at the wrong time, and that was on Auriya. (We were kinda slow on that one).

Other than that mana honestly hasn't been an issue - had to mana pot instead of wild magic/speed on P4 Mimiron on a couple of attempts, but I'm sure as we get better and quicker on that fight, it won't be an issue at all.

I have needed evocation, even if only for a couple of ticks, on basically every fight, though... and if it did get interrupted I'd be sol. However, I haven't found it terribly hard to get a full duartion Evo off as needed.

Edit: As far as numbers go, I have no parses as we haven't bothered this week. I was one of the guilds top single target pre 3.1, and it hasn't changed thus far, with the exception of Rogues being much higher than before.

Have to see what happens as we pick up more loot, I suppose.

Every Fire/TTW mage I asked said mana management was really rough in Ulduar (and having to AoE makes it worse). But some people here are reporting otherwise, so hopefully it's not as bad as I heard.

Mana:

- FFB: good
- Fire/ttw: requires at least 1 Evo every fight, Evo failure leaves you somewhat SOL.
- Arcane: requires Evo every 2 mins, Evo failure leaves you completely SOL.

AoE:

- FFB: good
- Fire/ttw: poor
- Arcane: good

Dps (ilvl226):

- FFB: pre-hotfix, matches fire/ttw; post-hotfix, 6% behind.
- Fire/ttw: reference.
- Arcane: 5% behind fire/ttw.


TLDR summary post FM-hotfix:
Dps: Fire/ttw >> Arcane > FFB
Mana/AoE: FFB >> Fire/ttw > Arcane

I've cleared Ulduar up to YS (P3), had no problems at all with mana as Fire, I'm not certain if that's a normal condition or has something to do with the fact that BoW and Mana Spring Totem stack.

That said 10 mans are hard as fire both from mana point of view and the fact that more often then not you don't have the +3% hit, so I usually spec FFB for those. I find the FM 'trick' tedious and annoying so mostly don't bother with it.

While I agree with most of your points, I don't believe that lagging 6% behind the top DPS spec, which seriously on non hard-mode encounters doesn't have any real mana issues right now, will leave FFB more viable than ttw/fire.

6% is a lot of damage to lose, especially if you bring 3 mages. Edit: Corrected below - wasn't even thinking when I wrote that. -.-
I guess some people are more tolerant of the lower DPS in exchange for the excellent efficency of FFB, but if the mana issues aren't there, you're basically giving up 6% for... better AoE. Not the greatest trade off, imo. I'll just keep letting the DK's smash the AoE, and take my 6%.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say viability there. I fixed my post. I agree that the mana efficiency and AoE of FFB isn't worth losing that much dps (compared to Fire/ttw). Optimally, for all 3 specs to feel equally appealing, Blizzard could improve FFB dps (~6%), Arcane dps (~5%), and Evocation reliability :-)

I've read posts here on EJ saying FFB is actually ahead of Arcane now, and that it's something like 3% behind Fireball.
That the ranking is actually Fireball/FFB/Arcane

I'm curious where you get theese numbers, they seem wrong.

Think about it, if 3% FM makes FFB pass fireball then the difference is not 6% as 3% crit doesnt give 6% more dps. (I know FFB has good critscaling, but it's below 400% and LB/Pyro has lower modifiers)

FM = 6% crit not 3%.
All mages that can cast FM make a FM buffing circle so each mage gains 3% direct + 3% when another mage crits.
If I don't have FM the other mages simply form a smaller FM circle and each of them gains 6% and I gain nothing.
Its true you can still get FM without buffing it yourself, but since its not a buff you bring on your own I wouldn't include it in the math, just like i wouldn't include getting tricks or PI.

Unless you're counting someone elses damage as personal damage for the FFB mage. FM is always only a 3% personal crit increase. You lose 6% between all casters - true. But wether or not you yourself can cast it, shouldn't play into the personal dps math with more than 3%.

Further - as an FFB mage, you shouldn't be the one left out of the "circle", as you gain the most from the buff.

I'm not sure why people keep arguing about 3% vs 6% crit from FM. The 3% you give to someone else matters, and mage-circle-buffing makes it easiest to quantify. Given this model, FFB is 6% less dps than Fire/ttw.

According to Rawr, 2 Arcane mages buffing each other with FM, will outdps 2 FFB mages with no FM.

I guess it's a good point losing 3% on someone elses damage by not having FM, but I still don't think you can say that FFB is 6% behind Fireball when 3% is on someone else.
We're all just comparing personal DPS here, if not, all the lock specs would be very complicated, depending on what buffs they bring (spec with the spelldmg buff means ele shammy can use a dps totem, should that then be included in the locks personal dps? no)

Also FFB has aoe benefits that are usefull in some fights, if you're going to start listing benefits other than personal dps.

Short version, I'd rather say FFB is 3% behind fire, and not include the buff on other people.

Ok, I edited my post, as I realised what you ment. Figured i could do it before someone replied:>
Added the lock example as well as to why valuating stuff other than personal dps is a bad idea, unless it's a big benefit for the whole raid.

We are talking spec balance here, towards raid dps (or raid healing if you cast on a healer). The external 3% FM crit very much matters as part of the spec, and that's even more obvious since mages can just cast it on each other. The talent point you put into FM is worth (slightly under) 6% crit. Normalizing to FFB dps (or circle buffing, or whatever quantitative model you prefer), that corresponds to a ~6% 'mage-contributed' raid dps loss post-hotfix.

I agree there is some margin of error in the Rawr results, given that only N-1 FFB mages can benefit from the FM swap trick.

And, of course, Blizzard's highest priority should be to bring Frost inline with the above three specs...

It's sad that Frost doesn't even get mentioned in the discussions any more.

Well, that lasted long

updated 3.1.1 patch notes ftl

I know the blue post from GC said the FM spec swap trick was going to get fixed... but I think it may have been already hotfixed last night.

Last night in Ulduar I was noticing that the FM buff would dissipate after it proc'd if you tried the TtW/FM -> FFB spec swap. You'd still be able to buff the other player and swap specs... but the first proc would clear the FM buff. Another one of our mages noted the same thing.

Anyone else?

I came here to check exactly this. I didn't notice the drop-after-proc thing, but the other mage was complaining he no longer had FM, perhaps 3 minutes after I had buffed him and switched spec (i.e., before engagement). Last night was the first raid night after Saturday mornings rolling restart.