WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3.3 live) - Page 211

TigaFin · 11/09/09, 6:46 PM

Crit chance is determined when the cast ends, so the FoF buff is also consumed when the cast ends and not when the spell lands.

Alezio · 11/13/09, 11:29 AM

I’ve been interested to work out whether the mage T10*2 set bonus would alter the spell rotation we would use. So I worked out (I think) the averaged out haste gain of ABspam234MB, ABspam24MB, ABspam34MB and ABspam4MB from T10*2. I assumed a raid buffed cast of 1.75 seconds, which was chosen as without lag and interruptions it allows for the next three casts to be cast under the hasted proc effect (1.75+1.5625+1.5625=4.875secs, allowing 0.125 secs to cast the final spell under effect).

ABspam234MB= 8.09% haste
ABspam24MB= 7.39% haste
ABspam34MB= 6.27% haste
ABspam4MB= 5.42% haste

I’m a bit of a maths amateur so I used excel to work this out and don’t know how to put it into equation form, if somebody wants to question my results please PM me and I’ll try to explain what I did so that it can be easily corrected. The reason for a notable jump in haste when using a rotation that uses MBAM at two AB stacks is that the effect can be chained.

My maths isn’t good enough to calculate whether the additional average haste gain from using a lower ‘DPS’ rotation would actually be a DPS increase, I’d be grateful if somebody could help out with that please.

edit: As an afterthought at certain haste levels would it ever be a DPS gain to clip MBAM to allow for an additional AB under the haste proc effect?
Edit2: realised i made a basic error with calculations trying to make things complex will update soon.
Edit again: it appears that 2*t10 is either modeled in RAWR or about to be so I'll leave the maths to the experts

Cabrian · 11/22/09, 8:37 AM

I´m attempting to do some napkin maths on pet scaling and would appreciate confirmation from those more experienced theorycrafters out there on the accuracy of my calculations.

Given a RAWR BiS raid-buffed Frost Mage (1655 Int, 3130 SP) my calculations for the relevant WE stats are:

Int: 369 + 418 (master stat inheritance) + 60(AI) + 51(GotW) + 10%(BoK) = 987 Int
SP: 1033 (master stat inheritance) +280(Totem of Wrath) = 1313 SP
Haste: +5% haste (Wrath of Air Totem) = 5% Haste
Crit: +5% crit (base) +8% crit (Moonkin Aura + Totem of Wrath) = 13% Crit

Giving Waterbolt:

2.375 sec cast time
601-673 base dmg
Coefficient 0.8333 +1094dmg
1695 - 1767 dmg per waterbolt
2542 - 2650 crit dmg per waterbolt

What I can't answer and I've looked extensively is any rigorous testing to prove that the WE does benefit from raid auras and totems. Has anyone on the PTR tested this to date on 3.3?

Eventually, I'm intending to do a comparison with these figures should pet scaling be introduced so have not considered debuffs on the target. Any help on this (or a point in the right direction if this work has already been done)?

As an aside, if Blizz were to implement stat inheritance for haste and spell crit, can we speculate that these would be at 100% based on other classes and their pets? (I know that the DK ghoul already inherits 100% of the master's haste but crit is largely based on particular talents for hunters and warlocks and seems a relative unknown).

Falcon213 · 11/29/09, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Cabrian

What I can't answer and I've looked extensively is any rigorous testing to prove that the WE does benefit from raid auras and totems. Has anyone on the PTR tested this to date on 3.3?

As a controllable pet, the Water Elemental does indeed benefit from any raid buffs and auras that a player would.

Additionally, you are missing spell crit from int conversion, 3% haste from Swift Ret/Moonkin Aura, 5% crit from scorch, and probably a few other raid buffs.

I'm sure to regret asking this, but is there any confirmation that Frostbolt glyph prevents it from proc'ing FoF?

Lhivera · 11/29/09, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Falcon213

I'm sure to regret asking this, but is there any confirmation that Frostbolt glyph prevents it from proc'ing FoF?

No, the chill effect is still present and can proc all the usual effects, it's just set to a movement reduction value of 0.

Pasture · 12/01/09, 10:48 PM

Is there any chance we can update the front page with the % values for the t10 bonuses as we have for every other set bonus? I'm assuming the t10 two set is going to beat the t9 four set hands down given how strong the proc appears (particularly for Arcane) but it would be nice to see some hard evidence for it. I know the two set isn't the easiest to model for but with 3.3 likely only a week away it would be nice to have something more concrete.

Elmenster · 12/07/09, 6:30 PM

I apologize if this has already been addressed but I am looking to optimize a raid frost build for 3.3.

I know the idea is maximize dps by spamming frostbolt but to utilize the 2 piece T10 shouldn't we get brain freeze?
Is there any connection/necessity to have frostbite with fingers of frost?
Also, in a raid environment we have a few other classes possibly providing replenishment, is there really any reason to put any points in enduring winter?
additionally, considering the "survivability" of frost, how critical is it to get Arctic Reach and Cold as Ice. those points could go elsewhere like Imp Blizzard or Frostbite. idk. please help me reach the full potential of Frost in 3.3

Vontre · 12/07/09, 6:42 PM

You don't need cold as ice, the cooldown reductions are not really that useful with infinite water elemental. Arctic Reach has nothing to do with survivability, more range is incredibly useful for positioning. There is no reason to put points in enduring winter if you already have replen. Yes you should get brain freeze, and use it whenever you do not have bloodlust so as to avoid hitting the gcd cap.

Also, this is important, you need to use deep freeze whenever possible.

All this being said, frost will still pretty much suck.

ridedc · 12/08/09, 4:16 AM

So what is the consensus for specs in ICC? Obviously Arcane is quite attractive, but what will people be using for their off-spec?

I was originally thinking of going with Frost for a few reasons:

1. Similar gemming with Arcane (my main spec)- haste.
2. Utility- good survivability, snares, and aoe.
3. Something new- finally using frost in a raid again.

But as of late, it seems Frost will still be unattractive, mostly due to it's significantly lower dps. Are most of you keeping your aoe FFB spec from Anub, or will you be trying something different- Frost with it's new damage increases, or Fire with it's new aoe rotations?

reirei · 12/08/09, 4:52 AM

Being a fire mage for our raids, I am happy about the scorch change.

About the Black Magic change; It seems like there will be a LOT of movement in the fights in Icecrown. The problem I am seeing is that we will have to move in the middle of the haste proc. Has anyone done any calculations to see when you would be moving too much to not have Black Magic be superior to either +sp enchant on weapons.

Of course, you won't always move in the proc, and you won't always not move. But it seems the way to benefit from procs off enchants and trinkets is to be stationary and be able to cast throughout the duration of the proc.

angelamaria · 12/08/09, 5:10 AM

I'm also keen to know the general consensus on the Black Magic enchant change; the general takeaway I have is that it pushes ahead of +sp now but I've not seen anything more definitive. A (very quick) Rawr optimize isn't telling me to switch, but I'm not sure if the enchant has been updated for Rawr or if my fight options are good enough.

I currently have a FFB offspec but have not really been able to use it, so I'm seriously thinking of speccing either Frost (added survivability for progression, plus I kind of miss my WE) or just going Arcane but moving a couple points for extra survivability (again, for progression). My decision will probably depend largely on which 10man group/schedule I get come 3.3; if I need to "bring the DPS" then we won't be able to afford the lower DPS of Frost (especially assuming the need to get acquainted with the rotation). Replenishment is another thing, but usually not an issue with our 10mans.

Roywyn · 12/08/09, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Pasture

Is there any chance we can update the front page with the % values for the t10 bonuses as we have for every other set bonus? I'm assuming the t10 two set is going to beat the t9 four set hands down given how strong the proc appears (particularly for Arcane) but it would be nice to see some hard evidence for it. I know the two set isn't the easiest to model for but with 3.3 likely only a week away it would be nice to have something more concrete.

Set Overview is at Sanctified Bloodmage's Regalia - Item Set - World of Warcraft

2T10 - 12% Haste for 5s after consuming Hot Streak/Missile Barrage/Brain Freeze.
Napkin Math (TM) with 4FB/Py and 4AB/MBAM Spam shows that it should proc at least every 10-12 seconds for Arcane and (Frost)Fire, making it a 5% DPS boost at least. For Frost, not sure. Assuming 7FrB/BFF is a good filler rotation, it should proc every 12-15 seconds, makng it a 4% boost at least.
There are still the non-filler parts (Pets, Living Bomb, Deep Freeze, Cooldowns), but 4% should be a good lower estimate in general.

4T10 - 18% Damage Boost for 30 seconds with Mirror Image.
On a 3-minute cooldown, it's a 3% damage boost, if you can use them at will. Probably 4% with strategic cooldown stacking.

Set Item Stats
If Wowhead is up to date, the whole set has no spirit and 2 items with hit, gloves and pants . The rest is Crit/Haste.
Unless I'm missing a proverbial Elephant in the Room, I'd say gun for the set.

I'll also weed out the First Post tonight and add more patch day discoveries as they come.

Originally Posted by angelamaria

I'm also keen to know the general consensus on the Black Magic enchant change; the general takeaway I have is that it pushes ahead of +sp now but I've not seen anything more definitive. A (very quick) Rawr optimize isn't telling me to switch, but I'm not sure if the enchant has been updated for Rawr or if my fight options are good enough.

Consensus is that it beats +63 SP, but is slightly below +81 SP. Very much dependent on gear, spec, setup. It should be correctly in Rawr if it shows something like that. If it's shown below half of +63 SP, it's the old DoT Enchant though.

[Edit]: Fixed T10. Also, I don't guarantee that my Black Magic info is still correct.
Also, a lot depends on mechanics details and bugs, beneficial or detrimental. Haste Procs being a prime candidate.

rhoward2 · 12/08/09, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Set Item Stats
If Wowhead is up to date, the whole set has no spirit and 1 item with hit. The rest is Crit/Haste.
Unless I'm missing a proverbial Elephant in the Room, I'd say gun for the set.

Actually, the set has two pieces with hit - the legs and the gloves.

mmjau · 12/10/09, 8:21 AM

So, time to spec range for ICC. Couldn't find anything really here on elitistjerks about this so How have you respecced? What would you recommend except Magic Attunement? I'm thinking of just removing 2 points in Magic Absorption and put them in Magic Attunement:
Like this (new)

Vontre · 12/10/09, 1:00 PM

No, don't drop magic absorption. Drop a bad talent, like arcane mind.

Viaon · 12/10/09, 1:20 PM

I want to know, is anyone picking up Incanter's Absorption? There is another mage in my guild that is picking it up just because of all of the raid damage in ICC. But I have been hesitant to try it.

Nissin · 12/10/09, 7:49 PM

I recently acquired the [Nibelung] staff and used it on heroic Anub'arak. The proc for me had an almost 50% uptime and did over 200k damage throughout a 7:39 encounter and I don't know if this is any way a fluke attempt with a lot of procs but seemed to be a very nice weapon upgrade compared to other items I have. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If not familiar with WOL use the triangle next to my name to bring out pet damage

Masaru · 12/10/09, 9:25 PM

Any ideas yet on which pieces of T10 to pick up first? There was a very helpful note about this for T9. Was hoping there might be some insight for T10, as well.

Pasture · 12/10/09, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nissin

I recently acquired the [Nibelung] staff and used it on heroic Anub'arak. The proc for me had an almost 50% uptime and did over 200k damage throughout a 7:39 encounter and I don't know if this is any way a fluke attempt with a lot of procs but seemed to be a very nice weapon upgrade compared to other items I have. Would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

If not familiar with WOL use the triangle next to my name to bring out pet damage

Lifted straight from WoWhead comments:

------------

After reading a bit (special thanks to Iketh) and doing some testing of my own, I could observe the following:

*
Val'kyr created from this proc will hit for around 1100 damage every 1,4 seconds. They are considered Guardians.
*
This has no internal cooldown (ICD). I've managed to summon as many as 5 Val'kyr at the same time.
*
This will proc off DoT-like skills. In my case (a mage), this procs off Living Bomb (every tick and the final boom) and also Blizzard (every wave).
*
This will proc off pinpoint damage skills, of course. Spells like Fire Blast, Frostbolt, Arcane Blast, do proc it. It does not, however, proc off the DoT part of pinpoint skills, like Fireball, Frostfire Bolt, or Pyroblast (it procs off the initial hit, but not the DoT). Flamestrike falls in this last category. I haven't tested its interaction with Arcane Missiles (whether it procs off all missiles or only the first one).
*
This will not proc off Ignite.
*
The chance to proc increases with the number of targets damaged. Hitting more targets with Blizzard/Flamestrike/Living Bomb boom increases chance to proc.

With that said, this staff looks good only situationally. In most cases, it's a subpar weapon. The low proc will not compensate its usage.

However, I tried using it on 25 H Anub'arak and it played out very well; on this specific fight, there's a constant stream of adds that will receive Living Bomb (Nerubian Burrowers and Swarm Scarabs) and much of the DPS done by a frostfire mage on this fight will also come from Blizzard hitting 5 targets simultaneously (the 4 Nerubian Burrowers and Anub'arak). Depending on their position, Swarm Scarabs may be targets for Blizzard too.

All of this greatly increases the chance Nibelung will proc during the fight, and made the staff actually worthwhile, to the point where the Val'kyr were responsible for approximately 5% of my damage. It should be noted they are not damaged by Anub'arak's Leeching Swarm. (Incidentally, today was our guild's first kill of 25 H Anub'arak, at long last! =D).

---------------

It was mentioned somewhere that on single target fights the proc only accounts for about 75dps. The missing haste/crit you lose out on by picking up this staff would account for more dps.

noriane · 12/11/09, 5:12 AM

It was mentioned somewhere that on single target fights the proc only accounts for about 75dps. The missing haste/crit you lose out on by picking up this staff would account for more dps.

Only 75dps ??? I havent got the staff to test yet, but as you said above, if the Val'kyr hit for 1100 dmg every 1.4 secs, that would be roughly 790 dps when it's up. If it's true that the Val'kyr only does 75 dps means it can only be summoned one every 5 mins ?
Edit :Wowhead shows that it has no ICD ad 1% chance to proc. So for mage it may actually just proc once every fight ... guess it's not so good.

angelamaria · 12/11/09, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Masaru

Any ideas yet on which pieces of T10 to pick up first? There was a very helpful note about this for T9. Was hoping there might be some insight for T10, as well.

I've only done a quick Rawr check, and it may depend on what gear you currently have, but the T10 robe is a slight upgrade from my Merlin's Robe (ranks higher currently). Additionally, with the items already available in Rawr, selecting them all as available (except for TOGC and Uld hard mode loot, which I did not include for the moment due to raid availability), the T10 chest is actually BIS along with Head, Shoulders, and Legs (getting [Gloves of False Gestures] as BIS currently for Hands). (I play Arcane.)

Edited to add: did a couple more optimizes (will full list of items as well), and there's some swapping between the gloves and legs ([Leggings of Woven Death]); but the chest remains. If this is the case it may then look like the chest would be the best one to pick up first (unless you're using T9 chest for the 4pc, naturally).

Anyone else seeing chest come up as part of their BIS list?

Mahogany · 12/11/09, 8:22 AM

What I've come up with so far as BiS list for Arcane:

Head [Sanctified Bloodmage Hood]
Neck Blood Queen's Crimson Choker
Shoulders [Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads]
Chest [Sanctified Bloodmage Robe]
Waist [Crushing Coldwraith Belt]
Legs [Sanctified Bloodmage Leggings]
Feet [Plague Scientist's Boots]
Wrist [The Lady's Brittle Bracers]
Hands San'layn Ritualist Gloves
Finger1 Memory of Malygos
Finger2 Ring of Rapid Ascent
Trinket1 [Reign of the Dead] 245
Trinket2 [Reign of the Dead] 258
Back Frostbinder's Shredded Cape
MainHand Rigormortis
OffHand Shadow Silk Spindle
Ranged Corpse-Impaling Spike

Arbitur · 12/11/09, 9:39 AM

I don't understand. Isn't it a bit pointless to compile BIS lists without the complete loot tables? Perhaps it would be more productive and practical to compile a BIS list as each wing is released, including the loot from only the available bosses. These lists should certainly exclude 277 ilevel gear.

Lucai · 12/11/09, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Mahogany

What I've come up with so far as BiS list for Arcane:

Head [Sanctified Bloodmage Hood]
Neck Blood Queen's Crimson Choker
Shoulders [Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads]
Chest [Sanctified Bloodmage Robe]
Waist [Crushing Coldwraith Belt]
Legs [Sanctified Bloodmage Leggings]
Feet [Plague Scientist's Boots]
Wrist [The Lady's Brittle Bracers]
Hands San'layn Ritualist Gloves
Finger1 Memory of Malygos
Finger2 Ring of Rapid Ascent
Trinket1 [Reign of the Dead] 245
Trinket2 [Reign of the Dead] 258
Back Frostbinder's Shredded Cape
MainHand Rigormortis
OffHand Shadow Silk Spindle
Ranged Corpse-Impaling Spike

Neither of the new new trinkets (and their heroic versions) are modeled correctly but when I model (or attempt to) the heroic version of each come out as the 2 BiS trinkets since you can't wear double 25man trinkets again.

[Dislodged Foreign Object] 277
[Muradin's Spyglass] 264

Mahogany · 12/11/09, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Arbitur

I don't understand. Isn't it a bit pointless to compile BIS lists without the complete loot tables? Perhaps it would be more productive and practical to compile a BIS list as each wing is released, including the loot from only the available bosses. These lists should certainly exclude 277 ilevel gear.

if you ask for a BiS list than specify what restrictions are on it: Ie only 10/25normal mode or only 25man normal mode.

You don't make "new" BiS list each time a bigger part of the dungeon is released, otherwise you might aswell count in the max number of badges you can get aswell for tier gear...

And you're probably right on the trinkets