Well, it sort of suits my theory that glyphs are partly intended as a disincentive for frequent respecs at level 80 without increasing the actual cost of doing so (although it may do that as well, if they ultimately prove to be expensive).

Except that Totem of Wrath and Flametongue Totem cannot be out at the same time.
That means that if you don't have an elemental shaman out providing the Totem of Wrath but do have a resto or enhancement shaman, they can stick out Flametongue, which should not override or be overridden by Focus Magic.

It would be overriden by Focus Magic because FM is stronger than Flametongue. The raid would get a total benefit of 150 spelldamage from FM. If FM dropped and was not refreshed, then the buff would "fall back on" Flametongue's buff.

Um, his point was that Totem of Wrath makes Focus Magic redundant. Which it does.

Flametongue is beaten by FM obviously, and that's justified because Focus Magic costs more mana, is an 11 point talent, has a longer GCD and probably will have a lower duration.

One thing of note is that Flametongue Totem hasn't recieved any new ranks in WotLK currently, so it is very possible that it will grant 100-120 spell power or more.

Just as a little note: at 2500 spell power and 35% crit (not including Empowered Frostbolt), with 66.67% Water Elemental uptime and casting 1.5 Fireballs per 8 Frostbolts and 2 FoF Frostbolts, Glyph of Frostbolt is a 3.9% DPS increase in exchange for sacrificing your soooooooouuuuuulllll.

Welcome to what playing like an Affliction lock feels like .


Keep in mind the basic bracer spellpower enchant is +20, making this +50 -- enchanting is 2x+23 = +46, so almost as strong (although without the other very nice situational enchants like stamina and +resists -- then again as mages you have less of a concern about resist fights via mage armor.)

(leatherworking gets a one-shot on drums, enchanting apparently gets an epic wand -- which I'm extremely skeptical about lasting past mid-naxx.)

Certainly I'm mumbling to myself about dropping LW last weekend, since I doubt most of my peers would pick up LW and that would give us one drums in the caster group, but meh. My mage was never a LW anyways, just my lock.

I was online from 10am to 9pm before I gave up. But i could test "Focus Magic" in a party. Everbody got a selfbuff with 50 stacks/1 minute duration. (Today the stacks never where consumed, so you always ended up with 50 left after 1 minute)

In terms of the FoF charged vs timed debate, what about a glyph?

Normal: 4 second timed, no charges
Glyph of Fingers of Frost: 15 seconds, 2 charges

Xeno, since you are going nuts on the beta forums, you could possibly suggest this.

On another note, the Hot Streak changes seem excellent to me. It gives raiding mages more damage and dynamic casting and is potentially usable in PvP.

Given this mechanic, you didn't test the one thing I'd like to know.

2 winter's chill then 3 scorch. Is the 2 winter's chill still the only visible thing on the target because it ignores any one stack of scorch while 2 winter's chill (a "stronger effect") is in place? If so, this is VERY BAD, since it could lead to situations where you're stuck with an unmaxed stack of one or the other and have to wait for it to completely fall off the mob before the other can BEGIN to be stacked.

In fact, it would completely break the mechanic of having an imp scorch glyphed fire mage open the fight with one scorch then let the frost mage take over for the rest of the fight. You'd avoid ramp time, but then winter's chill wouldn't apply until scorch was gone entirely, in which case you're just delaying the ramp time for later, or requiring the fire mage to completely maintain the debuff, only falling back on winter's chill in case of a fire mage death.

Terrible implementation with definite negative raid effects.

Xentropy, have you tried a build with Frostbite in an instance? I'm wondering if the damage = 40% total health before early breakage thing works with Frostbite as well as Frost Nova; if so, raid trash elites could well stay frozen long enough to be of some use, rather than the freeze breaking instantly as everyone beats on the mob. Not that this matters a great deal, but it'd be interesting to know.

But we don't particularly want shattered barrier.

Speaking as someone who's enjoyed both aspects of the game I'd really like to see Fingers of Frost be something that works well for everyone. As I mentioned earlier, I think this current version of FoF is definitely better for PvP and I hadn't even considered the possibilty of switching targets for a quick deep freeze on the non-dps target.

At any rate, I'm not really arguing in favor of keeping things the way they are now, just arguing that you can't simply ignore one aspect of the game and "claim" a certain talent in the name of PvE.

This is a bit annoying. It seems they started by giving us a significant buff in the form of making imp scorch/winters chill affect all mage schools of damage instead of just the one. Now they've undid that buff AND done some damage to what we had before hand. Frost and Fire are now still only getting 10% more crit, frostfire bolt only gets 10% where under the old rules it would have been the only spell to get both, so basically. Frankly, I'd prefer a return to the status quo of imp scorch only affecting fire and Winters Chill only affecting Frost. It would give Frostfire Bolt a reason to exist again. As it stands, Arcane is the only tree coming out ahead in this.

If Blizzard can't see their way to either a) undoing this most recent change or b) undoing ALL changes to imp scorch/winters chill then they need to at least replace this horribly clunky mechanic and simply make both spells trigger the same debuff so both spells can stack it it together.

The glyph mechanism seems like an obvious way to make talents have both PvE and PvP bonusses, just not at the same time, and thus without making them overpowered, or as in this case, when the two seem mutually exclusive (using glyphs depends on how easy it is to switch of course, but since thats still a big unknown, ill just ignore it).

The most drastic version would be as someone else mentioned:
FoF: 2 charges
'Glyph of FoF': 4 sec timer

I doubt Blizz would have such a drastic change from glyphs (though the frostbolt version is pretty damn close :S).
Another could be, as I wrote earlier, add more dmg on Deep Freeze when used against targets which cant be stunned (thus avoiding PvP issues). I dont know how much extra dmg it need to be a better option than 2 frostbolts, maybe its too much for it to realistically work?

Quite a lot, especially considering the different in scaling. It'd overpower the spell in PvP, really (remember that if you can cast it at all, it's also got a +50% chance to crit, so the thing's going to hit like a truck most of the time relative to most instant casts).

However, someone else seems to have duplicated Xentropy's ability to get a third spell out of the buff, which makes me wonder, is it really consuming the charges on cast rather than on hit? Reference:

WoW Forums -> [Suggestion] Fingers of Frost back to timer!

If this is something people can manage to do consistently, rather than having it work half the time and the other half you lose casting time when you're told "You can't cast that now," then I'd say it's fine. Further testing needed!

Comments:

1) The elemental change makes imp elemental useless for pvp, but maintains pve usefulness, particularly since spread over the whole raid. With 50% elemental uptime on an 8 minute fight, every raider getting 24% of their mana back due having a frost mage isn't too bad. Personally I like the change, as deep frost is getting too powerful for pvp, and I would prefer that the elemental eats the pvp nerf rather than something which effects deep freeze or shatter mechanics.

2) The new glyphs are a joke, particularly ice armor. My guess is that Blizzard knows it is only useful for pvp, but doesn't want to buff it in pvp. It will only be used against melee, and they already hate it.

3) Fingers of frost is a good idea stuck down the path of a bad idea. The notion of enabling dynamic shatter combos in PVE is wonderful, but because the original mechanic was over-powered, they went down the path of making it a buff instead of a debuff. But the whole idea of shatter combos is rooted (ha ha) in its use as a debuff - getting that icelance off while the frostbolt is still in the air. In PVP, the talent is going to be broken, allowing at will stuns on any target we choose during a proc. They need to come up with another way of making it work in PVE - making it count as frozen only for ice lance, fireball (brain freeze synergy, although brain freeze should really be proccing frostfire), and frostfire bolt, for instance.

I'm getting a third spell off quite consistently, with a ~220 ms ping. It seems to be consumed on cast, not on hit, though, so this is lag-related.

I had a chance to play around with Hot Streak today and there does not appear to be a time constraint on when those crits occur. I had a 10 minute AFk, came back and the first spell cast was a crit and HS proc. This could be nice for heavy movement fights that you will not lose the count.

I know frostbite has the same breakage mechanics as frost nova from fighting enough overland trash. I have not instanced yet to see whether elites get special treatment in that regard, though. If not, this just adds raid trash to the cases in which frost is losing approx 15% damage (to shatter combos and extra crit uptime) in exchange for 5% boss damage.

It definitely consumes the buff on cast instead of hit. However, if the timestamps of the cast spells are close enough together, they can both obtain the benefit of the charge before the charge is removed. The timing is much tighter than a normal shatter combo (both must be cast within probably lag time * 2, or perhaps related to the chaincasting mechanics added in 2.3 (the one-deep server queue you can use if you're within half a second or so of finishing a cast when requesting the next), and much harder to pull off. I can do it about 40-50% of the time, though, after a couple of hours of practice. For some reason I have a much easier time doing it with ice lance than deep freeze, but have pulled off deep freezes with this as well. "Missing" a deep freeze with the mechanic just gives you a cannot use that now error, though, while "missing" an ice lance means landing a pretty worthless 300 damage at the cost of a GCD. Unless it can be perfected, it won't be worth the risk to ice lance during a boss fight, but at least attempting a deep freeze (provided you're very quick on the trigger of the next frostbolt if you missed the window) may be worthwhile. It's really a poor substitute for a true 4-second debuff, however, and almost impossible to model given its hit or miss timing nature. It may very well end up being either much easier or much harder to pull off for people with various amounts of latency, and I really dislike a mechanic that overly helps or harms those with differing latency.

It's abysmal when compared to Replenishment's 240% over the same time period. It functionally doesn't exist from a raid balancing standpoint, but that's the point I suppose. I'd much prefer AoE avoidance.

A timed buff, though, models the same effect perfectly. Instead of beating a freeze timer, or a freeze break due to your spell landing, you're beating a buff timer. It's functionally the same thing. Putting CHARGES on it changes the mechanic completely such that you'll never use anything but frostbolts while it's active. In PvP, having 4 seconds to choose and get in range of an alternative target helps balance it. Having 15 seconds to hit the / key and walk slowly toward any target you wish and then stun it for 5 seconds is vastly overpowered.

And your limitation of only working with ice lance, fireball, and frostfire bolt would miss the point completely. If they did this and made it timed, when the proc shows up on our screen, we're already halfway through a frostbolt cast (and it's NEVER worth cancelling casts), so we'd be "wasting" part of the proc if it didn't even work on frostbolts. And if it were still charged, all you'd be doing is significantly nerfing it, forcing us to just ice lance twice with it, much weaker damage per proc than two +50% crit frostbolts.

In PvP yeah, but that was why I wanted it to only apply some bonus dmg against targets which couldnt be stunned = It would only do current dmg in pvp.
Of course it would have some potential against non-raids mobs which cant be stunned then, but hardly a game-breaking effect.
Maybe there is some issue I havent thought of. Reverting back to a 4 sec timer is a much smoother fix of course. But then the PvP'ers might be annoyed instead.

I kinda hope they change Imp. WE again, people should push for a change on the beta forums. Now the talent feels like a decent idea (although overpowered before) which got sacked due to external changes (mana battery change).
If they dont really want to give us a mana battery, what is the point of having it. Pretty much anything else would be better (the aoe avoidance should be standard though, for all pets).

I did some math on the drive back to school. (its a 4 hour drive and i was bored =/)

Assumptions: There is no Frost mage to apply the Winter's Chill Debuf. The Total Crit Damage from a Fire spell is 200% + 40% of the Crit Damage. (so 2(1.4))

Let X = Number of Spells Cast
Let Y = Total Damage of a Not-Critting Spell including all talents except the Imp Scorch Debuff
Let Z = Crit Percentage

Base Equation for Total Damage over a certain number of spellcasts.

For the Old Debuff, multiply the whole thing by 1.1

Adding the new debuff ads .1 to Z

If we solve them, we can find out at what %Crit the damage from the two debuffs are equal (sorry about the formating):

Just to Check

I'm confusing myself with the math, but i think this means that at 50% crit the damage will be equal. Or maybe its at 60% Crit, idk. (not including the scorch buff). What I am sure about is that below the mark (whatever it may be) you gain more damage from +10% Crit (i plugged in .3 into Z earlier, and the crit equation came out higher)

Anyways, overall, for PvP and Soloing , this is a buff*

The problem comes in PvE with raid stacking, more spikey threat management, and higher DPM (Due to Burnout)

Just trying to shed some TC on the subject. Feel free to correct me if my maths wrong =D.

*I say this becuase there only three real ways (i.e. spells) you're going to go over that crit % on a normal Basis. You can reach 50% Crit with 19% crit in gear with a 14/57/0 Spec, but only on Blastwave and Fireblast. Fireblast can eazily get above 50/60% with the glyph, but thats only on stunned/incapacitated targets. Finally, of course, you can get above this mark with Combustion.

Spell crits are 150%. Fire + Ignite is 1.5*1.4.

snwborder52: the result of comparing +10% damage > +10% crit should boil down to whether...



Where b is the crit bonus (the multiplier applied to a crit - 1) and c is the (pre-+10% crit) crit chance.

For, say, 245% crits (175% on hit and 70% on Ignite), this would become equality at 31.03% pre-Scorch crit. Below this, +10% crit is superior to +10% damage done. Above it, crit is inferior.

This is, of course, a simplified model compared to real casting conditions.

I do like the idea of shatter combos. My point was that it is an artifact of the way Blizzard has programmed casting checks. there is no obvious reason why a lance fired a fraction of a second after a frostbolt still gets the shatter buff when a frostbolt crits before it. But its the way the spells work and mages like it.

The problem is that duplicating that effect where the buff is to the caster creates a completely different playstyle. I am not so much trying to work in shatter combos as I am trying to get in as much damage during the proc *to which ever target I choose*. That is the point that I think you are missing. the ability to choose your deep freeze target during an FoF proc is going to be overpowered, regardless of whether the proc duration is 4 seconds or 15. You get the proc, wham, they are an ice cube that sits there for 5 seconds eating 80% crit chance lances.

As for the nerf that you describe in my solution, that is fixable - give it 3 charges instead of 2. If you still don't like the idea, fine - I am not wedded to it. I just think that Blizzard needs to come up with a different way to work in dynamic play that doesn't make mages overpowered in pvp.