For a Fire Mage in T7 gear:
100 spellpower = +120 DPS roughly.
100 spellhit = +130 DPS rougly.
Elemental precision gives us 79 spellhit, so about ~103 DPS.
79 hitrating however in terms of stats value should equal 144 spellpower, which equals ~173 DPS.
Okay, you had me until "79 hitrating however in terms of stats value should equal 144 spellpower". What?! Spellpower costs 0.86 item points vs a rating's 1 item point, so 79 hit rating would, if you could find a piece of gear that had no spellpower on it and convert it directly to spellpower, give you 92 spellpower at best. If the item already HAD spellpower, you'd get less due to the root-mean-square method of item creation used (with a log2/log1.5 exponent). If you converted the hit to another rating, it'd still give you 79 rating. So using Roy's entire scaling list for Deep Fire:
100 dmg = +122.3 DPS
100 int = +25.9 DPS, +0.27 MPS from MoE/Hot Streak, +23.29 MPS from Pool/Evo/Replenish/JoW
100 crit = +81.2 DPS, +0.85 MPS from MoE/Hot Streak
100 haste +101.8 DPS, -6.75 MPS
100 hit = +127 DPS
Being able to trade 79 hit for something else earns you 80dps for haste, 64dps for crit, or 112dps for spellpower. 79 hit itself is worth 100dps if you aren't otherwise capped.
Compare that to a 3% crit talent. That's 137 (rounding down even though it's 137.7) crit rating, or 111dps. If you chose to move points from crit to other things on gear in return for those talent points, you could "buy" 137 haste or hit, or 159 spellpower, returning 139, 176, or 194dps, respectively.
Your assertion that hit is the best thing to gear for, rating point by rating point, is correct. However, your assertion that a 1% hit talent is any better or more required than a 1% crit talent is incorrect. The only reason hit is "so good" is it's cheap to gear for. Thus you actually lose LESS by skipping a hit talent than you do skipping a damage or crit talent.
On Frost versus Fire:
Sorry, but this is in my opinion simple common sense. A talent build that has higher survivability and ways of CCing it's targets, should not have the same kind of DPS output as a talent build that has lower survivability and has no ways of CCing it's targets. If they intend to give deep fire and deep frost talentbuilds equal DPS, they should also give fire extra things that would matter on single target raidDPS encounters.
That's not Blizzard's philosophy. Their current philosophy is "if it's designed to dps, it should output nearly the same dps as every other properly designed dps build". If a class is a hybrid and can do things other than dps, they still dps just as well as mages who don't have that option. If a class has more utility, they still dps just as well as mages (and utility has been spread around more to compensate). If a class has more survivability, they still dps just as well as mages (warlocks as well as frost apply here; even dps warriors and death knights). Note the vast majority of frost's "special things" don't even apply in boss encounters. Ice barrier is helpful, as is an extra ice block. All the chills and freezes have absolutely no effect in the vast majority of those encounters, so to nerf our dps in those encounters based on those abilities isn't something Blizzard thinks is "simple common sense."
So itemisation in that regard is still pretty much the same as with was at T4 gearlevel. We had to gather each little bit of hitrating we could get to have our best possible DPS.
For a Fire Mage in T7 gear:
100 spellpower = +120 DPS roughly.
100 spellhit = +130 DPS rougly.
If those numbers are right, and the itemization costs are 7 spell = 6 hit (which is what wowwiki says), you are better off buying spellpower than buying hit.
Yes, sorry it just dawned upon me that I used the wrong statsconversion between spellpower and hitrating.
Still, I keep holding into the opinion that a talentbuild with more mana efficiency and survivability should not do equal DPS. Else there is simply no point for any PvE'er to spec deep fire anymore. If frost has an extra ice block and ice barrier and mana efficiency than fire should have something extra which is useful on raidbosses too. That is pretty simple I think?
Because if not, and you don't agree with it, then tell me why should any raiding mage spec fire?
You're overthinking it. Clearcasting extends the mana pool by around 10% -- that in itself helps to make Living Bomb more sustainable. It isn't necessary that Clearcasting make the Living Bomb casts themselves free in order for it to help you keep casting it.
I don't dispute that, I only compare it to the Frost-tree. Its of course a moot point, since noone is comparing 10 point arcane vs. 18 point frost, but I was just stating that indeed 13% less manacost from frost-talents are a bigger mana-gain by themselves then only the 10% gained from clearcasting, which is most likely not even applying to LB at all.
The above is, obviously, quite silly once you start taking into account the fact that you will either get 10 of the 13% from frost OR meditation, wherein Arcane pulls ahead clearly. I only ment to clarify the statement that "Clearcasting helps LB", when in fact, this is not an advantage of 18 Arcane over 18 Frost, but rather a sidenote on the awesomeness that Meditation could be DPS-wise.
Anyhow, I am getting into more thought about the 11/52/8-specc which I before dismissed at being a waste, and which Manly now proposed again. Trouble is, I really haven't taken EP into account for the damage-component, I rather looked from a pre-Sunwell BC viewpoint, where hit is highly abundant.
The question I ask myself is: If we are rather settled on taking Arcane Focus, because it is awesome (and looks sorta fun too, and like the thing that will get you a few friends in a raid ^^) and beats IV in terms of Manaefficiency, RaidDPS-gain, then we are set on our 11 points arcane, with another 8 to put out.
We put the 8 in frost, we get: 3% more mana for us to spend on LB, and the ammount of spellpower/crit we didn't spend on hit in our gear, which isn't all that much, but still adds some punch to your fireball.
We put the 8 (7) in arcane, we get: More spirit, and a talent that makes use of it. Feels right to me, but will it get your DPS any higher? Will you, with meditation, be able to cast LB without using Mage Armour? Will you generally be able to sustain LB only with meditation AND Mage Armour?
We are really rather comparing LB-uptime vs. Elemental Precision then we are comparing 3% hit to the value of 3% on Arcane Focus. Question is: Has anyone figured it out yet?
Yes, sorry it just dawned upon me that I used the wrong statsconversion between spellpower and hitrating.
Still, I keep holding into the opinion that a talentbuild with more mana efficiency and survivability should not do equal DPS. Else there is simply no point for any PvE'er to spec deep fire anymore. If frost has an extra ice block and ice barrier and mana efficiency than fire should have something extra which is useful on raidbosses too. That is pretty simple I think?
Because if not, and you don't agree with it, then tell me why should any raiding mage spec fire?
Unfortunately, in most fights, all those Frost advantages and fifty cents will get you is a cup of coffee. Blizzard has finally learned that if you balance DPS against utility and efficiency and survivability that usually don't come in useful, all that happens is people flock to the higher DPS spec, and respec to the other spec for the few fights where those advantages matter, and then spec back. They don't want you to do that. They want you to play the spec you enjoy.
So, yes, on occasion, Frost's efficiency will be useful -- but usually, it won't, because it doesn't actually generate additional DPS, since Frost hasn't got a strong mana dump. On occasion, an extra Ice Block will come in handy, but usually it won't. On occasion, Ice Barrier and (lord help me, but it's true now) Frozen Core will come in handy, but usually they won't.
Similarly, occasionally the ability to deliver damage as a DOT will come in handy (beyond its use for sustained DPS), but usually it won't. Occasionally the ability to deliver massive AOE burst in a very short time will come in handy, but usually it won't. Occasionally having DPS that doesn't drop by 10% in a fight that kills pets will come in handy, but usually it won't.
These are all pretty much reduced to flavor differences now. Why would you spec Fire instead of Frost? Because you enjoy it, and they put up similar numbers most of the time.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
You can get EP and Focus Magic and Living Bomb in the same build. This is by far the most optimal solution.
Well, it's optimal, sure. It loses a lot of the build's personality, though. With a build like that you're not so much playing a Fire Mage as you are playing Generic DPS Caster Number 12. I realize a lot of people don't really care about that, but it makes me sad.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Alternative Builds -------
19/52/0 - Deep Fire + Clearcasting / Focus Magic / 30% mana regen
(more regen for LB, but no EP, and can't cast FFB)
(1 floating point put into Torment of the Weak) http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
With a build like that you're not so much playing a Fire Mage as you are playing Generic DPS Caster Number 12.
I have to disagree with this...with 11/52/8, it seems like having 5 times as many points in one tree than any other would give a pretty strong indication that "Hey, I'm a Fire mage." The standard BC Fire build split points between all three trees as well, I don't see why this is a big deal. Not to mention that the current difference between "Deep Fire" and "Elementalist" right now is like...3 points between Fire and Frost (although that's more of a problem with the way Elementalist talents are placed right now). Regardless, anything 50+ in a single tree seems like a strong indication of Fire, Arcane, or Frost if you're looking at it for RP purposes. The remaining points can go anywhere to best improve the mage's performance.
Edit: Random side note thought here: This is certainly not as awful 0/21/40 warlock builds were. They had like 4 meanginful talents in Destro that applied to their actual dps. So glad they fixed that.
I have to disagree with this...with 11/52/8, it seems like having 5 times as many points in one tree than any other would give a pretty strong indication that "Hey, I'm a Fire mage." The standard BC Fire build split points between all three trees as well, I don't see why this is a big deal. Not to mention that the current difference between "Deep Fire" and "Elementalist" right now is like...3 points between Fire and Frost (although that's more of a problem with the way Elementalist talents are placed right now). Regardless, anything 50+ in a single tree seems like a strong indication of Fire, Arcane, or Frost if you're looking at it for RP purposes. The remaining points can go anywhere to best improve the mage's performance.
It's of course a matter of opinion. My feeling is that the "flavor" of the trees is centered around the talents that mostly don't just increase the average damage of your primary nuke. For Frost, that's the snares and roots and shield and the like. For Fire, it's the massive AOE talents and stuns. Etc. These super-streamlined specs sacrifice all that ripe, juicy flavor for a couple percent more DPS. It's like taking protein pills instead of eating a piping hot lasagna. It's like drinking flavorless 6% lite beer instead of a handcrafted 4% brown ale.
Again, just my opinion, a side comment. I like that these decisions are more difficult now, Blizzard has succeeded. I'm just saddened that so many people seem to be planning to order the Schlitz Lite instead of the Pyramid Best Brown.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Interesting builds, Manly. I had always considered 53 as the "required" amount to put into Fire and was wondering why you called anything past 52 a floater. Took me a moment to notice the difference: I don't even include Blast Wave or Dragon's Breath since they're of no use in a boss fight, but I *do* include 3/3 World in Flames since it increases Living Bomb's crit by 6%, and there was constant talk of Living Bomb being a significant part of Fire's improved dps in Wrath. If LB's crit rate is unimportant, then really since the AoE spells are filler as well, Fire could easily go 51 and pick up any number of alternatives.
11/52/8 Meh, I can't help but feel that 8 points for 3% hit might not be worth it, because you actually 'waste' 5 points. But I guess it'll all depend on mana availability, if we aren't starved and can dump LB as much as we can then who needs efficiency. However, it looks like blizzard is working hard on making mana scarce or at least not overflowing.
My bet is we'll end up as 18 points in arcane or frost, not 11/52/8.
Still, I keep holding into the opinion that a talentbuild with more mana efficiency and survivability should not do equal DPS. Else there is simply no point for any PvE'er to spec deep fire anymore. If frost has an extra ice block and ice barrier and mana efficiency than fire should have something extra which is useful on raidbosses too. That is pretty simple I think?
Because if not, and you don't agree with it, then tell me why should any raiding mage spec fire?
Because they enjoy fire and it provides dps that is competetive with other builds? I mean it is a game.
I'm not sure how much of an advantage you think ice block, ice barrier and mana efficiency are on bosses. Currently none of those are a big deal on bosses and I can't imagine that changing much in WotLK.
I believe Lhiv is correct. The fun talents to me are not even related to DPS (slow, impact, frostbite, instant invis, etc), yet we can't afford them if we want to be competitive DPS. That's bad tree design. Essentially we can streamline fire, arc, or frost to just be the exact same playstyle in order to maximize their DPS. That really sucks.
In testing on the PTR I found that FoF is consumed by spell hits so for example if you cast arcane missles or blizzard with FoF up two hits will treat a target as frozen and then FoF is consumed. There was a lot of lag and now the world server is down so I'm not certain my logs were correctly showing what was happening. Does that agree with what other people have seen?
If frost has an extra ice block and ice barrier and mana efficiency than fire should have something extra which is useful on raidbosses too. That is pretty simple I think?
Because if not, and you don't agree with it, then tell me why should any raiding mage spec fire?
Well lets see....
If you aren't using the ice barrier and ice block (I do without the first and rarely use the second even once on bosses) then those two don't count. DPS also requires pet wrangling to achieve, which I don't do as well as I do my own spell rotations. (I feel I can do living bomb/pyroblast procs/scorch/fireball more reliably than correct use of water elemental plus watever else frost has to manage to get its dps)
Mana efficiency is a DPS tradeoff. If I have enough mana I don't need more. Even very marginal DPS increases cause most people to take it in their spec.
Fire's better when the boss is low on health. Fire is going to be better DPS when the mage is low on health (imagine a fight like the Prince in KZ with fiery payback). Fire can shift enemy monsters with blast wave when that's helpful. Fire probably has better AOE options. Fire does some of its damage with DOTs, more than it used to (as ignite will be more common, as will pyroblast dots and possibly even flame srike dots).
If you like this package of abilities better than the package of frost tricks you'll raid fire. And you'll be allowed to because you bring enough DPS and you use the tricks you have well whenever they come up. Hopefully the same will be true of arcane.
Today, my fellow teammates value the fact that I execute the final 20% faster. They value that if a mob gets loose it gets disoriented for a few seconds. They value that I have higher burst AOE for finishing off packs of injured mobs. They value that I can DPS decently without being fed a huge stream of mana. These aren't many unique tricks for fire, but they're valued and I'll have more unique tricks in WOLK.
It's of course a matter of opinion. My feeling is that the "flavor" of the trees is centered around the talents that mostly don't just increase the average damage of your primary nuke. For Frost, that's the snares and roots and shield and the like. For Fire, it's the massive AOE talents and stuns. Etc. These super-streamlined specs sacrifice all that ripe, juicy flavor for a couple percent more DPS. It's like taking protein pills instead of eating a piping hot lasagna. It's like drinking flavorless 6% lite beer instead of a handcrafted 4% brown ale.
Again, just my opinion, a side comment. I like that these decisions are more difficult now, Blizzard has succeeded. I'm just saddened that so many people seem to be planning to order the Schlitz Lite instead of the Pyramid Best Brown.
Exactly my feelings as well. Luckily, I choose more casual guilds which accept a slightly less 'optimal' build, which is totally subjective, but having fun with it over the ripped off 'optimal' builds which are often castrated deep builds with some or all signature spells/talents left out.
In testing on the PTR I found that FoF is consumed by spell hits so for example if you cast arcane missles or blizzard with FoF up two hits will treat a target as frozen and then FoF is consumed. There was a lot of lag and now the world server is down so I'm not certain my logs were correctly showing what was happening. Does that agree with what other people have seen?
Yes, this is exactly what is happening. All of your spells, if you have shatter, will receive a 50% increased crit rate when FoF is up, even non-frost spells. I'm not sure how this applies to Arcane Missiles or Blizzard, has anyone done any testing of that sort yet?
Originally Posted by Valestra
I choose more casual guilds which accept a slightly less 'optimal' build, which is totally subjective, but having fun with it over the ripped off 'optimal' builds which are often castrated deep builds with some or all signature spells/talents left out.
I think many people would echo this statement if given the choice. Most people play an MMO-style game because they like developing a character, and talent spec is as much character development as naming or race decisions are. Part of the reason why I still have 2 points in Blazing Speed instead of Arc. Subtlety, I just enjoy those talents more than the "optimal" fire raiding template. What's sad is that min/max guilds will demand a vice grip spec, which does not allow any free or floater points.
Interesting builds, Manly. I had always considered 53 as the "required" amount to put into Fire and was wondering why you called anything past 52 a floater. Took me a moment to notice the difference: I don't even include Blast Wave or Dragon's Breath since they're of no use in a boss fight, but I *do* include 3/3 World in Flames since it increases Living Bomb's crit by 6%, and there was constant talk of Living Bomb being a significant part of Fire's improved dps in Wrath. If LB's crit rate is unimportant, then really since the AoE spells are filler as well, Fire could easily go 51 and pick up any number of alternatives.
Regarding Blastwave/Dragon's Breath: As good as raiders can be with aggro, let's face it, things happen, and sometimes a mob goes streaking at your squishies (our mage selves included), Dragon's Breath's disorient and the new <i>completely awesome</i> knockback on Blastwave can give you a little breathing room and your tank time to move over and pick these errant bastards up, saving a number of healers and dps. I really like that they made Blastwave into a defensive spell, by the way. Before, it was the epitome of a pointless spell.
Interesting builds, Manly. I had always considered 53 as the "required" amount to put into Fire and was wondering why you called anything past 52 a floater. Took me a moment to notice the difference: I don't even include Blast Wave or Dragon's Breath since they're of no use in a boss fight, but I *do* include 3/3 World in Flames since it increases Living Bomb's crit by 6%, and there was constant talk of Living Bomb being a significant part of Fire's improved dps in Wrath. If LB's crit rate is unimportant, then really since the AoE spells are filler as well, Fire could easily go 51 and pick up any number of alternatives.
Well, I'm not adamant of Dragon's Breath. Its a nice to have, not much more than that. I could live with 51 fire without much gripe, but I don't exactly consider Dragon's Breath a floater point. Theres a real benefit to have that spell, although of questionable value. By contrast, I am sure we will all agree that 1/3 Impact is a floater point for PVE.
Also, I did check the dps gain from 3/3 World in Flame specifically for single target dps increase (6% more Living Bomb crit yay!). The gains are beyond horrendous. We're talking less than 0.25% dps increase for 3 talent points.
Originally Posted by Maje
11/52/8 Meh, I can't help but feel that 8 points for 3% hit might not be worth it, because you actually 'waste' 5 points. But I guess it'll all depend on mana availability, if we aren't starved and can dump LB as much as we can then who needs efficiency. However, it looks like blizzard is working hard on making mana scarce or at least not overflowing.
My bet is we'll end up as 18 points in arcane or frost, not 11/52/8.
No see, you're making the same mistake many other people are. EP is not just 3% hit, its also 3% better DPM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
World in Flames would be a single target DPS upgrade over DB/BW, however only the final tick of Living Bomb can crit. Three talent points for 6% crit on this tiny portion of your overall damage seems wildly inefficient. I can't see it amounting to even a 1% DPS increase, so I'd stick with DB/BW.
Yes, this is exactly what is happening. All of your spells, if you have shatter, will receive a 50% increased crit rate when FoF is up, even non-frost spells. I'm not sure how this applies to Arcane Missiles or Blizzard, has anyone done any testing of that sort yet?
What I think I observed was that only the first two ticks of arcane missle and the first two "hits" of blizzard treat the target as frozen. Was hoping for confirmation from someone else on that as I had about 2-3 seconds lag until the PTR server went down. The mechanics of shatter wasn't anything I had any questions about.
What I really wanted to nail down was the interaction between FoF and Blizzard. What I think I saw:
Talented Blizzard does chill targets but doesn't proc FoF
FoF applies to two hits of Blizzard, not two ticks but two hits
I was on the PTR so only had 61 points to play with as was trying to figure out what made the most sense in terms of raiding. I didn't have Frostbite but I would be curious if it was procing on Blizzard but not FoF. I only tried arcane missles because I wanted another data point. I could be completely wrong so I was curious if anyone else had worked out the interaction between FoF and Blizzard. From reading the talents I would expect blizzard to proc FoF and was suprised I didn't see that.
09/19/08, 1:03 PM
