WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3.3 live) - Page 84

Samuel · 09/25/08, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by sornok

1) About our crit debuffs. Do they stack ? (I guess not). Are they the same debuff or a different one ? When we have both in a raid to they push each other out of the debuff list ? What about focus magic ? Does it stack with the one of them ? I guess yes, but isn't it too much for a single class to buff with 16% crit the whole raid ?

Winter's Chill and Scorch are two separate debuffs but their effects do not stack so maximum 10% assuming the mages can keep at least one of them up.

The Focus Magic debuff is placed on a single person, giving them 3% extra crit, and then when they crit the casting mage receives a 10 second, 3% crit buff. AFAIK this does stack with all the other buffs (like the moonkin aura) but does not stack with itself. Consequently, two mages putting Focused Magic on each other would just get 3% crit and never benefit from the proc as it doesn't stack with the buff. This means, Focus Magic effects a maximum of two people for 3% each assuming the person with the buff can keep the proc up. One poster claimed it was only magical damage crits and not healing crits or melee crits so elemental shaman or balance druids are good candidates then non-focus-magic mages, warlocks and finally shadow priests if you want the proc.

Originally Posted by sornok

2) About the frostbolt glyph, since it removes the slowing effect, does it also remove the coefficient reduction of the spell ?

No, it does just what it says it does and nothing more. There is no extra "hidden" bonus from a coefficient change based on the previous posts.

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 10:04 AM

(1) New data with 250 spell hit given to everybody....
(2) Fire Mage switched to Roywyn's spec....... but since I gave everybody the same gear, the Fire Mage was short 3% +hit.

Config File:

#
# Mage_Arcane
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) The "barrage=1" option to arcane_missles means that it will only get executed when the "barrage" buff has been up 
#     for at least 0.5sec (to account for lag and reaction time).
#
mage=Mage_Arcane
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=00000000000000000000000000000530033010020000000000000000230005033100300150323102515321
actions=flask,type=blinding_light/molten_armor/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/evocation,trigger=10000/arcane_power/arcane_missiles,barrage=1/arcane_barrage/arcane_blast
# Uncomment these lines to enable Focus Magic
# actions=flask,type=blinding_light/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Fire/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/evocation,trigger=10000/arcane_power/arcane_missiles,barrage=1/arcane_barrage/arcane_blast
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=585
# Glyphs
glyph_arcane_power=1
glyph_molten_armor=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Mage_Fire
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) Focus Magic from raid dps standpoint is better than Icy Veins, but Fire Mages cannot live without Frost Channeling due to mana constraints.
#
mage=Mage_Fire
level=80
# We will let the poor Frost Mage raid-slave keep up the Improved Scorch debuff
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=03550300120033310531203013510000000000000000000000000000230005031100200000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Frost/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/evocation,trigger=10000/combustion/living_bomb/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/fire_ball
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=585
# Glyphs
glyph_fire_ball=1
glyph_mage_armor=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Mage_Frost
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) The "frozen=1" option to ice_lance means that it will only be cast if the target is frozen (via winters_grasp) or virtually frozen (via fingers_of_frost)
# (4) The "fb_priority=1" option to ice_lance and deep_freeze means that it will only be cast if the frozen debuff/buff will end before a frost_bolt could be cast
#
mage=Mage_Frost
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=00000000000000000000000000000533031312233100230052231351230005030100000000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/molten_armor/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=2500/deep_freeze,fb_priority=1/ice_lance,frozen=1,fb_priority=1/evocation,trigger=10000/water_elemental/icy_veins/cold_snap/fire_ball,brain_freeze=1/frost_bolt
# Uncomment these lines to enable Focus Magic
# actions=flask,type=pure_death/molten_armor/focus_magic,target=Mage_Arcane/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=2500/deep_freeze,fb_priority=1/ice_lance,frozen=1,fb_priority=1/evocation,trigger=10000/water_elemental/icy_veins/cold_snap/fire_ball,brain_freeze=1/frost_bolt
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=585
# Glyphs
glyph_molten_armor=1
glyph_frost_bolt=1
glyph_water_elemental=1
pet=water_elemental
actions=water_bolt
quiet=1
active=owner
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

#
# Mage_FrostFire
#
# (1) The "trigger=3500" option to mana_gem and mana_potion represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (2) The "trigger=10000" option to evocation represents the mana gained and the amount below max required to trigger
# (3) The "debuff=1" option to scorch prevents it from being executed unless the Improved Scorch debuff is going to expire in less than 6sec.
#
mage=Mage_FrostFire
level=80
talents=http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage=03550300123033300531200003510233030310030000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
actions=flask,type=pure_death/molten_armor/mana_gem,trigger=3500/mana_potion,trigger=3500/scorch,debuff=1/evocation,trigger=10000/combustion/icy_veins/living_bomb/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/frostfire_bolt
# We will let the poor Frost Mage raid-slave keep up the Improved Scorch debuff
skip_actions=scorch
gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=687
gear_spirit=250
gear_spell_power=2004
gear_spell_crit_rating=596
gear_spell_hit_rating=250
gear_haste_rating=585
# Glyphs
glyph_molten_armor=1
glyph_frostfire=1
# Throw in a pair of Paladins.......  Eventually these static parms will be replaced with real actors.
blessing_of_kings=1
blessing_of_wisdom=1
sanctified_retribution=1
swift_retribution=1

Results:

Player=Mage_Arcane  DPS=3369.3  DPR=9.7  RPS=345.7/389.0  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=44  agility=50  stamina=845  intellect=1052  spirit=490  health=11648  mana=16996
  Spell Stats:  power=2267  hit=9.5%  crit=20.5%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=34  hit=0.0%  crit=4.0%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    arcane_barrage        Count=101.4| 3.4sec  DPE=5134|44%  DPET=3976  DPR= 8.6  Miss=1.5%  Hit=3796  CritHit=6639|8298|49.1%
    arcane_blast          Count= 93.5| 3.7sec  DPE=5393|43%  DPET=2746  DPR=11.7  Miss=1.5%  Hit=3989  CritHit=6991|12003|48.8%
    arcane_missiles       Count= 15.0|23.2sec  DPE=10007|13%  DPET=5040  DPR= 9.0  Miss=1.3%  Tick=1488  CritTick=2600|3267|48.8%

Player=Mage_Fire  DPS=3991.3  DPR=12.7  RPS=314.9/373.5  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=44  agility=50  stamina=845  intellect=915  spirit=460  health=11648  mana=16996
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=9.5%  crit=19.7%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=34  hit=0.0%  crit=4.0%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    fire_ball             Count=113.8| 3.1sec  DPE=6702|55%  DPET=2732  DPR=11.1  Miss=4.4%  Hit=4929  CritHit=8612|9299|54.0%
    ignite                Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|22%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=3115
    living_bomb           Count= 29.5|11.8sec  DPE=5933|13%  DPET=4405  DPR= 6.6  Miss=4.6%  Tick=1115  CritTick=3720|4032|10.1%
    pyroblast             Count= 18.6|18.7sec  DPE=8252|11%  DPET=6140  DPR=13.1  Miss=4.2%  Hit=4641  CritHit=8111|8764|50.7%  Tick=440

Player=Mage_Frost  DPS=3491.4  DPR=19.6  RPS=178.0/308.3  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=44  agility=50  stamina=845  intellect=915  spirit=446  health=11648  mana=16996
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=9.5%  crit=19.7%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=34  hit=0.0%  crit=4.0%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    deep_freeze           Count=  8.9|39.1sec  DPE=5270| 4%  DPET=4030  DPR=25.7  Miss=1.5%  Hit=2729  CritHit=5457|5469|94.6%
    fire_ball             Count= 21.4|16.3sec  DPE=4573| 8%  DPET=3513  DPR= inf  Miss=1.5%  Hit=3778  CritHit=5668|5689|45.1%
    frost_bolt            Count=145.3| 2.4sec  DPE=6301|75%  DPET=3154  DPR=16.3  Miss=1.5%  Hit=3867  CritHit=7746|7780|64.3%
    ice_lance             Count=  8.4|41.4sec  DPE=4388| 3%  DPET=3363  DPR=24.4  Miss=1.5%  Hit=2270  CritHit=4542|4554|94.8%
   water_elemental
    water_bolt            Count= 87.5| 4.0sec  DPE=1364|10%  DPET= 544  DPR= inf  Miss=14.1%  Hit=1425  CritHit=2141|2146|19.5%

Player=Mage_FrostFire  DPS=3906.5  DPR=14.9  RPS=261.8/342.9  (mana)
  Core Stats:  strength=44  agility=50  stamina=845  intellect=915  spirit=446  health=11648  mana=16996
  Spell Stats:  power=2004  hit=9.5%  crit=19.7%  penetration=0  haste=17.8%  mp5=91
  Attack Stats:  power=34  hit=0.0%  crit=4.0%  expertise=0.0  penetration=0  haste=17.8%
  Actions:
    frostfire_bolt        Count=118.9| 2.9sec  DPE=6158|54%  DPET=2589  DPR=13.9  Miss=1.5%  Hit=3782  CritHit=8496|9181|51.6%
    ignite                Count=  0.0| 0.0sec  DPE= inf|22%  DPET= inf  DPR= inf  Miss=nan%  Tick=3010
    living_bomb           Count= 28.8|12.1sec  DPE=6193|13%  DPET=4725  DPR= 7.2  Miss=1.5%  Tick=1120  CritTick=3716|4032|10.3%
    pyroblast             Count= 18.2|19.1sec  DPE=8470|11%  DPET=6445  DPR=13.9  Miss=1.4%  Hit=4640  CritHit=8116|8764|51.2%  Tick=440

Here is the dps breakdown for all the players in the raid:

maxi · 09/25/08, 10:12 AM

@dedmonwakeen
Is affli lock in your results using the Curse of Doom?

@Ignite bug discussion
Has somebody been able to test if/how Living Bomb ignites interact with other ignites?
If you equip 0 haste, you should be able to land simultaneous fireballs with LB ticks rather easily.

Also i hear reports about Ignite bug accounting for as much as 5% total dps loss in various test scenarios. Can someone elaborate on this?

Zaldinar · 09/25/08, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by maxi

@Ignite bug discussion
Has somebody been able to test if/how Living Bomb ignites interact with other ignites?
If you equip 0 haste, you should be able to land simultaneous fireballs with LB ticks rather easily.

Also i hear reports about Ignite bug accounting for as much as 5% total dps loss in various test scenarios. Can someone elaborate on this?

The single target ticks won't interact with it. The detonation (which can crit) should behave as all other effects of its type. if it detonates on top of a tick of ignite, it has a chance of repeating that tick in its own ignite calculation. If it detonates with another crit at the same time, it has a chance of having only its, or the others, calculated.

I would be flat out amazed if a mage lost 5% total DPS through loss of ignite ticks. My worst case scenario testing is showing losing around 7.4% ignite damage (thats, only ignite damage), and gaining some of it back through the gain bug. More data collection is obviously needed.

Xentropy · 09/25/08, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

2) Frostfire Bolt shouldn't be able to beat Fireball.
You have average hit and crit for Fireball as 4.6k/8.1k, Frostfire Bolt as 3.6k/8.5k.
I have Fireball as 4.6k/8.4k, Frostfire Bolt as 3.6k/8.4k.

Neither of those sets of values seems to quite add up. Since you both agree on the damage of a hit, let's just assume that part's right. Crits should then be one of the following (ignoring ignite since that damage is modeled separately):

Fire not including CSD = 175% (8050)
Fire including CSD = 181.75% (8360)
Frostfire not including CSD = 225% (8100)
Frostfire including CSD = 236.25% (8505)

So Roy's numbers are close for inclusion of a Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, though a tad short on the frostfire crits. Dedmon's numbers look like the frostfire mage is using CSD and the fire mage is not.

For completion's sake, if the 4pT7 bonus stacks with the CSD for +8% total critical strike damage, you'd get the following crits:

Fire including CSD and 4pT7 = 193% (8878)
Frostfire including CSD and 4pT7 = 255% (9180)

Pasture · 09/25/08, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

It's such a shame to see arcane going from such powerful dps to 1000dps behind the top raid member. That's a big gap. I had hoped this patch would have something up its sleeve for arcane to bump it back up. The problem is that I don't know what they can do to fix it aside from revert AB back to it's previous iteration. It seemed overpowered but results from actual raid environments never had arcane on top.

But then of course we'd be back to square one with spamming one button. I geniunely don't know how they're going to make arcane more workable. The changed it so late in the game it's almost like there's not enough time to fix it now.

Pook · 09/25/08, 11:30 AM

I'm sure this has already been covered somewhere, but I've had a look and can't find it.....

From the was the blues are talking about the Arcane tree it seems obvious they want us to mix it with spells from other trees & I believe that's what has turned out to be best in testing Arc/Fire.

So what is the point of Arcane Focus now, 3% hit is surely of no use if we need to cap the Fire spells also... so its just 3% mana reduction, which is not to be sniffed at but hardly the point of the talent.

Roywyn · 09/25/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

I would be flat out amazed if a mage lost 5% total DPS through loss of ignite ticks. My worst case scenario testing is showing losing around 7.4% ignite damage (thats, only ignite damage), and gaining some of it back through the gain bug. More data collection is obviously needed.

I'd be very interested how Ignite bugs turn out for sustained DPS.
At around 7.4% Ignite losses, we're looking at 1.5% total DPS loss.

I'm particularly curious where most of the losses happen - I'd guess on Fireball/Pyroblast combinations.
And whether Scorch-Pyroblast or other tricks actually work

Originally Posted by Xentropy

Neither of those sets of values seems to quite add up. Since you both agree on the damage of a hit, let's just assume that part's right. Crits should then be one of the following (ignoring ignite since that damage is modeled separately):

There was some pretty ugly rounding of my part, I shouldn't have done that.
Point was that hits were similar while crits had a noticable difference into different directions.

Any news on the Frostfire Bolt DoT?
Do we still have the issue of rank 1 scaling with damage and rank 2 not doing so?
It's pretty annoying to TC it without knowing which one is intended.
Most of the time it doesn't matter at all because the spell scales badly.

But it may or may not have its uses as DoT filler for mana reasons (Fire) or as Shatter spell (Frost).

Pasture · 09/25/08, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Pook

I'm sure this has already been covered somewhere, but I've had a look and can't find it.....

From the was the blues are talking about the Arcane tree it seems obvious they want us to mix it with spells from other trees & I believe that's what has turned out to be best in testing Arc/Fire.

So what is the point of Arcane Focus now, 3% hit is surely of no use if we need to cap the Fire spells also... so its just 3% mana reduction, which is not to be sniffed at but hardly the point of the talent.

Well half the spells we cast will be arcane so why would 3% hit on arcane not be useful? Problem is we need to pick up elemental precision as well for the 3% fire hit. The 3% mana reduction on arcane will barely make a difference since an unstacked AB is insanely cheap anyway.

On the 200% mana cost again. The reduced it from 300% for a reason. We should look to why they did this. The clearly thought that not being able to stack AB at all was too severe a penalty. I believe the 100% mana change per stack is designed to encourage us to use more than one AB in a row before dropping the debuff.

PsyBomb · 09/25/08, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Pasture

Well half the spells we cast will be arcane so why would 3% hit on arcane not be useful? Problem is we need to pick up elemental precision as well for the 3% fire hit. The 3% mana reduction on arcane will barely make a difference since an unstacked AB is insanely cheap anyway.

On the 200% mana cost again. The reduced it from 300% for a reason. We should look to why they did this. The clearly thought that not being able to stack AB at all was too severe a penalty. I believe the 100% mana change per stack is designed to encourage us to use more than one AB in a row before dropping the debuff.

Reduction to 200% makes it barely feasable to use as a mana dump at the end of a fight, essentially. While it'll still blow through mana, it'll at least allow for a few casts if you're starting from full. If the raid is in full-out burn mode at the end of a boss, that should be enough to last.

arch · 09/25/08, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Any news on the Frostfire Bolt DoT?
Do we still have the issue of rank 1 scaling with damage and rank 2 not doing so?
It's pretty annoying to TC it without knowing which one is intended.
Most of the time it doesn't matter at all because the spell scales badly.

But it may or may not have its uses as DoT filler for mana reasons (Fire) or as Shatter spell (Frost).

Rank 1 ticks for 86 dmg with 1131 fire damage and a 18/53/0 spec
Rank 2 ticks for 33-34 dmg with 1131 fire damage and a 18/53/0 spec

Rank 1 ticks for 21-22 dmg with 0 damage and a 18/53/0 spec
Rank 2 ticks for 33-34 dmg with 0 damage and a 18/53/0 spec

Let me know if you need me to test something, I have a lvl 80 mage in mostly greens (sigh at not getting an invite for my own account) and I'm quite bored.

edit:
- Living bomb anti-dispell portion does not work
- Blast wave dismounts enemy players
- Living bomb also dismounts players when it explodes
- spell misses also restore mana when you have magic absorption

Hinalover · 09/25/08, 12:10 PM

I have 2 questions:

in the latest patch they said

mproved Scorch - Now only affects your damaging Scorch spells.

Does that mean the 2% Crit ONLY affects scorch or is it still for all magic?

Also since everyone is going with a 18/51/0 Deep Fire spec, is everyone giving up on Elemental Precision. The reason is that I kind like the look of 0/50/21 or 10/50/11 (I could move points out of go with 12/51/8)

Cabrian · 09/25/08, 12:15 PM

Don't see why they just don't just change Arcane Blast to:

Blasts the target with energy, dealing 648 to 752 Arcane damage. Each time you cast Arcane Blast, the mana cost increases as you gain Arcane Resolve. Arcane Resolve increases the damage of your next Arcane Missiles or Arcane Barrage spell by insert_value %. Effect stacks up to 3 times and lasts 3 sec.

Wouldn't that give us the functionality of the old AB whilst forcing us into a rotation?

dedmonwakeen · 09/25/08, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by maxi

@dedmonwakeen
Is affli lock in your results using the Curse of Doom?

Yes..... There is Boomkin in the raid taking care of the spell dmg vulnerability.....

Originally Posted by Xentropy

Neither of those sets of values seems to quite add up.

I think there were a number of discrepancies, the primary one being a bad (or at least out-dated) Fire spec on my part.

I also did not include CSD.

With the talent change, I believe my numbers are much closer to Roy's.

Vand1 · 09/25/08, 12:37 PM

I noticed an interesting trend in the mmo-champion post on Naxx-25 gear. They list four trinkets of interest to casters, and every one of them is of the equip/proc variety, rather than the equip/on use variety. Combined with the spreading out of Molten Fury over a much longer period of time (for a commensurately lower damage increase) and the total nerfing of potions, is this evidence that Blizzard does not intend for us to be stacking cooldowns anymore in order to maximize DPS?

Lgs · 09/25/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

I noticed an interesting trend in the mmo-champion post on Naxx-25 gear. They list four trinkets of interest to casters, and every one of them is of the equip/proc variety, rather than the equip/on use variety. Combined with the spreading out of Molten Fury over a much longer period of time (for a commensurately lower damage increase) and the total nerfing of potions, is this evidence that Blizzard does not intend for us to be stacking cooldowns anymore in order to maximize DPS?

I think they have realized we have so many abilities that already need binds that it's getting too complicated. Taking those trinkets off use is a simplification of this for the average user.

Think about all the spells a fire mage will need bound in wotlk raiding: Fireball, scorch, living bomb, pyro, poly, db, blastwave (maybe), arcane explosion, blizz or flamestrik, frost nova, ice block, invis, counterspell, your mount, spell steal... that's a lot.

Vand1 · 09/25/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Lgs

I think they have realized we have so many abilities that already need binds that it's getting too complicated. Taking those trinkets off use is a simplification of this for the average user.

Or put another way, let's remove the factors that have set apart truly skilled mages from the "average users."

diag · 09/25/08, 12:56 PM

200% mana increase is close to the concept of mana dump that is not sustainable, however the 15% dmg increase is too low, AB spam should have a higher dps than ABar at such mana cost.

Obviously 200% mana/15% dmg is not finalized yet, I wonder what is the "expected" arcane dps in the final version, should it be lower than fire for the push back protection or perform differently in different fights.

Nastrodamus · 09/25/08, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Here is the dps breakdown for all the players in the raid:

Man.....are mages really that far behind warlocks in WoTLK?
I had a question that I bet someone has answered but I haven't seen it yet....
Anyone have a link to the "Best" Fire build, "Best" Frostfire Build and "Best" Arcane/Fire build?
One more question is where does "Arcane/Fire" - 51+ in Arcane fall in line on this chart in DPS?

Vand1 · 09/25/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Nastrodamus

Man.....are mages really that far behind warlocks in WoTLK?

Bliz has said multiple times that they have yet to do any sort of DPS balancing between classes, and so it is rather pointless to look at such a chart and worry about where mages stand in relation to others. Once such a balancing pass has been done, I will be the first to complain if things stay the way they are now, but for now there is no reason to believe they will.

diag · 09/25/08, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

I noticed an interesting trend in the mmo-champion post on Naxx-25 gear. They list four trinkets of interest to casters, and every one of them is of the equip/proc variety, rather than the equip/on use variety. Combined with the spreading out of Molten Fury over a much longer period of time (for a commensurately lower damage increase) and the total nerfing of potions, is this evidence that Blizzard does not intend for us to be stacking cooldowns anymore in order to maximize DPS?

Only 1 epic trinket(melee) that has a use effect: List of trinkets that share CD

Zmaj · 09/25/08, 1:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

I have 2 questions:

in the latest patch they said

Does that mean the 2% Crit ONLY affects scorch or is it still for all magic?

Also since everyone is going with a 18/51/0 Deep Fire spec, is everyone giving up on Elemental Precision. The reason is that I kind like the look of 0/50/21 or 10/50/11 (I could move points out of go with 12/51/8)

This was discussed on the previous 2 pages. It wouldn't make much sense to change only scorch while leaving winter chill untouched when they both do the same thing. In the example manly gave, it's only going to effect fights like Najentus where the mob goes immune, so you can't reapply scorch at that time.

As concerns to specs, it looks like 18/53/0 is the spec of choice now. This is of course subject to change, but since arcane impact picked up 6 percent more fireball damage it completely made the frost tree a worse alternative. I'm not quite happy with this as before it allowed some variation of specs between icy veins/spell hit versus mana regen in arcane.

Hinalover · 09/25/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zmaj

This was discussed on the previous 2 pages. It wouldn't make much sense to change only scorch while leaving winter chill untouched when they both do the same thing. In the example manly gave, it's only going to effect fights like Najentus where the mob goes immune, so you can't reapply scorch at that time.

As concerns to specs, it looks like 18/53/0 is the spec of choice now. This is of course subject to change, but since arcane impact picked up 6 percent more fireball damage it completely made the frost tree a worse alternative. I'm not quite happy with this as before it allowed some variation of specs between icy veins/spell hit versus mana regen in arcane.

I read the last 2 pages and no one gave a difinitive answer to the scorch question

as for the new spec I can see why people would want that but to me that would put more emphasis to stacking Spell Hit now (go the full 17% Spell hit which I want to say is 446 hit rating [unless they are telling us that Hit cap is changing to 10% at which case it's only 232])

Nastrodamus · 09/25/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by grayrest

With this change, my spreadsheet is showing:

ABr->AB/MBAM: 3589 dps, 13.15 dpm (no frost channeling)
ABr->FrB/MBAM: 3815 dps, 12.93 dpm
ABr->FB/MBAM: 3867 dps, 11.26 dpm (didn't model MoE)

This is using the Naxx setup Roywyn uses but I add misery and model MBAM as 85% of one cycle and 15% of ABr->MBAM. The fireball/frostbolt glyphs and talents are used as appropriate. Fireball pulls ahead if you can hit cap without elemental precision, but they're pretty close to even. Interestingly, without the talents backing fireball up, I'm showing a ABr->Sc->FBl is almost exactly the same dps as an ABr->FB, so a 53/18/0 can actually maintain scorch with no real dps loss, though it costs more mana and you lose a chance to proc MB.

I have a couple of questions here and I want to make sure I have this right......ABr->FrB/MBAM does this mean I am alternating between ABr, Frb, Abr, Fireball until MBaM procs then instead of fireball I cast AM?
Other question is - 53/18/0 - Does it look like this - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323102505021

If not what points am I missing or what do I need to switch around?

manly · 09/25/08, 1:48 PM

Since Spell Impact still doesn't affects fireball I'd rather assume its not meant to, but thats just me.