Well I did some mana consuption tests on the test dummies on both the PTR and Beta. Using just the lvl 70 Main Fire rotation (Fire Spec 0/53/8); all I have to say is that the rotation is a mana sucker. With just self buffs and in 5 piece T6 (10360 Mana; 1235 SD; 187 Spell Hit; 32% crit) and no evocation/mana gems; mana dumped in about a minute's time. Each time I tested was getting 2-3 HS in the mana dump. But I was also getting some big crits (5.8k FB crits over 4.3k on live) so the dps should improve in that regard. Like I said, this was just self buffed and no raid buffs/debuffs in effect.
The problem with arcane right now is there is no balance in what you do between ABar - that is to say; Abar is a good, balanced spell but it REQUIRES weaving and what you weave with it should be hinted at in the rest of the tree. Examining the tree, it seems that your options are AB, FrB and FB. AB is hinted through a 9% co-efficient buff and 100% pushback protection. Fireball and frostbolt are hinted at by being listed as the 'other' spells that proc MBAM (The first thing any mage notices about MBAM is the lack of AB for making it proc). None of these spells should be the de-facto nuke to weave ABar with - any one of them with supporting talents should break about even. If you take a 'pure' arcane spec you free up points for the nice arcane flavour talents; Incanter's abs, Slow, prismatic cloak. streamlining the tree of all flavour and dumping them in fire for an ABar/FB rotation should ideally give you some of fire's flavour; pyro, WiF, burning determination, improved fire blast or whatever else you want to get in there. Again for frost, taking 20 points picks up a more frost-flavoured build; shatter, permafrost, frost channeling and Icy veins are all options. What works, and works well, is that a deep arcane spec can take the flavour of any spec (baring some slight bloat in arcane 'streamlined' specs). What doesn't work, however, is the balance of DPS based on that.
The following rough rotations should all give the same DPS, allowing the arcane mage to pick a flavour whilst still being competitive;
Deep arcane - ABar/AB
Arcane/Frost - ABar/FrB
Arcane/fire - ABar/FB
Right now arcane/fire and arcane/frost vastly out-perform deep arcane. The problem is slightly due to too much fireball support in arcane (or too little frostbolt/AB support) and also to do with the nearly impossible task of finding a sweet spot for the performance and mechanics of arcane blast.
Note - when I talk about flavour talents I refer to the ones discussed above as none-quantifiable, erratic returns talents.
Note 2 - I would be grateful if someone could re-post this, or something like this, in the arcane feedback thread on the beta forums. And damn them for not sending me a beta key.
Note 2 - I would be grateful if someone could re-post this, or something like this, in the arcane feedback thread on the beta forums. And damn them for not sending me a beta key.
Done and done.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
FWIW, in my rather limited testing of ZIT over a few naxx half runs, it seems I am zeroing-in to 0 damage gained/lossed. I really wasn't expecting that. Over 3 million ignite damage total, I've had it stay in the -10 -20k ignite range for 2 days, then on the next day it jumped back from there into +8k gain.
Is that mostly with Pyroblast right away on Hot Streak procs or Scorch then Pyroblast?
Yo...I'd like to ask you guys something about the coeffs and the impact it could have on the game aspects for the Mages.
It's well known that one of our big problems is the lack of properly scalling with gear compared with the other classes, specialy in PvP, so I'd like to sugest something like:
1. I read today on the WoW foruns a nice sugestion about FoF made for Calsifier and I'd like to spread it. The main idead was to make FoF bump the Ice Lance coeff on it's duration so the Dmg it does might be more attractive than just keep spamming Frostbolt. Is it possible/viable and will this really change the Raid viability of the skill? I'm sure it might help a bit on PvP (however...the difference is so tiny on PvP that it won´t make too much).
2. They are changing Deep Freeze. It was too much for PvP and would be outperformed for PvE past some amount of Spell Power. So I was thinking about the coefficients on this one too and I've read on the Beta a sugestion of Affix to lower it's base Dmg and bring up the coefficient. Now it would be great for PvP AND PvE while not being overpowered in any for those aspects. It´s a 51 talent point and it must fill the PvE and PvP aspect of the game...honestly I don´t see better sulution for this one talent if not what I pointed out here since at this way our coefficient scalling will have a little help too.
2.a. Other sugestion to help Deep Freeze would be making it does some "%" of +Dmg on targets that are immune to Freeze/Stun or something like that. While it could hurt Hunter in BW and Warriors in BS, they are still taking less dmg than if the Freeze/Stun landed. This one is not that good since our scalling problem won´t change and that´s a huge problem post x-pack.
3. This one I was thinking and I don´t know if it´s even viable or if it´s really all that good. The thing here is more radical...what if the coefficients, most of them, were changed so the difference between casted and instant are not that big? I mean...if Frostbolt coeff changes to 60% instead of 80%+ and Ice Lance is changed to 30% instead of 10% (I know these numbers are not accurate, but it's just to make and example). We would scale much better with the instants than now and the casted main nukes would still be the main nukes, but some instants could be mixed on the rotations since the main nukes are not absoluts anymore depending on the situation. On my example, Frostbolt still is the best one to cast on most cases for it's procs, snare and dmg (in normal situations) but it would be replaced for Ice Lance/Deep Freeze on a FoF proc...Shatters on players would still need Frostbolt to be done because one Ice Lance could break the root.
Also, changing Fireball and Fireblast's coeff could make Fire more than just Scorchx5/Fireballx8/Scorch (add Living Bomb and Hot Streak procs in there too) and putting Fireblast on the rotation could be good because of it's additional crit chance and expensive mana cost can make using this spell triky and the Fire tree more fun.
All this coefficient chance thing could be good for both aspects of the game. On PvE it could make the rotations more diverse and fun (and would make the skill cap higher for PvE) while for PvP it could finaly address our scalling problems with instants since it´s so rare to have room for a cast but yet, make the cast worth it for the procs and such.
If at least 1 and 2 were implemented we can maybe have less problems with scalling in both PvE and PvP and the class would be more viable latter on the implementations. I don´t care being more gear dependant if I can perform better latter on the expansion instead of being on the situation we are right now on BC.
What do you guys think? I'd really like to read from you about those things and maybe see some of those things implemented...I don´t know...right now the coeffs on some spells are just looking much more important for us than just flat dmg boost.
If you guys think some of this deserve to be on the Beta Foruns as possible sugestions...please post it there since I can´t...x_x'
Just to put the FoF mechanics back on the radar for a few seconds:
Even though ISB doesn't work like this, Shadow Embrace and Haunt are both target debuffs that only affect the damage of the warlock that placed them (% increase to DoT damage in both cases). There is precedent, both in terms of game design and in terms of code lying around, that FoF could be a debuff on the target instead of a self-buff on the mage, and affect only that mage. This would let FoF act basically the same as a shatter-combo, since it's relying on the same mechanics of debuff removal and travel time as Frostbite. If you ask nicely for the mechanic to be switched to be more consistent, GC might listen.
If this were the case I would again push my agenda of replacing Shatter with the FoF mechanic altogether since it's totally redundant.
Gante, if they are changing deep freeze, I really hope it's an active mana dump like living bomb or arcane blast. I really doubt Blizzard will be able to balance specs without something that can trade off damage for mana and I don't mean not having to use evocation and mage armor or whatever else we have right now. In a mana rich environment, warlocks can lifetap less, hunters can use AotV less, arcane mages can spam more arcane blast and fire mages can weave living bomb more.
Without a mana dump, Blizzard forces frost into two things:
1. its dps is balanced with everybody else's in a mana-rich environment and frost has the advantage of way easier mana management
2. its dps is balanced with everybody else's in a moderate/low mana environment and it will outdpsed in a mana-rich environment.
Neither of those choices is particularly appealing to me.
I read your post, Lhivera, and am curious why you did not include fireball under solution 2. Frost already has brain freeze. While interactivity is nice, having frost watch 2 different procs to use 2 different spells seems unnecessary complication. To make the numbers work and so frost doesn't feel weird casting a lot of fireballs, maybe Blizzard can reduce the number of charges to 1 but increase the damage of the fireball that will use the charge.
Version r600 of SimulationCraft available for download. No major changes to Mage, mostly pet stuff for Warlock and Shamans. This time I included an Affliction spec without Drain Soul in the default config.
Just to put the FoF mechanics back on the radar for a few seconds:
Even though ISB doesn't work like this, Shadow Embrace and Haunt are both target debuffs that only affect the damage of the warlock that placed them (% increase to DoT damage in both cases). There is precedent, both in terms of game design and in terms of code lying around, that FoF could be a debuff on the target instead of a self-buff on the mage, and affect only that mage. This would let FoF act basically the same as a shatter-combo, since it's relying on the same mechanics of debuff removal and travel time as Frostbite. If you ask nicely for the mechanic to be switched to be more consistent, GC might listen.
If this were the case I would again push my agenda of replacing Shatter with the FoF mechanic altogether since it's totally redundant.
The problem is that PvP mages would absolutely hate that. They would lose like 10 seconds worth of time in which to use Fingers of Frost -- then the fact they both only proc together *would* become an issue for PvP Mages (whereas currently its not) and you'd basically be forcing them out of the talent altogether.
I'd prefer that, perhaps, Frostbite have that functionality. Frostbite could place a debuff on a target which roots the target *if* it can be rooted, and makes the target count as frozen and then goes away when the root is broken. If the target is not rooted, it lasts the full duration the entire time -- but if the root breaks from damage the debuff goes away.
Perhaps that'd be a tricky mechanic to implement and thus is asking too much (the spell triggers for something like that may or may not be doable without additional code) but it would be a better solution than what you're suggesting and remove the need for PvE Mages to spec Fingers of Frost unless they want it as a PvP talent.
Ghostcrawler claims that the Water Elemental should be inheriting owner Hit Rating. So if testing still shows that it isn't, it should be reported as a bug. I'll see what I can do tomorrow, but I haven't got a level 80.
At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
Question - how does 3.0 AB interact with Arcane Power? Do the mana penalties still stack additively? Do the dps % increases stack additively or multiplicatively?
I don't really understand why suggestions like this keep popping up. We need to make sure we approach things from the context of Blizzard's current agenda, which is: All DPS is going to be roughly equal. Creating a new talent like this in the 2nd tier of the fire tree would mean only two things.
1) It would be a requirement to achieve maximum DPS for nearly every spec. Blizzard has an X in mind for Mage DPS. If you add 10% in one place at this point, that only means 10% needs to come off somewhere else to maintain X. Basically, the damage increase portion of the talent would be meaningless in the end and
2) All mages that are speccing for maximum DPS would henceforth be in Berserker stance. There would be no damage gain, only a drawback in this case.
I just plead that we all think very carefully before we even hint around with suggestions like this because I fear Blizzard may grab at anything and implement it. They haven't been too hot in the thinking department lately.
The problem is that mage single target dps in a min/max'ed spec is 10-20% behind min/max'ed specs of other classes that arguably bring equal or better utility, and mage aoe is roughly equal to or possibly even behind that of balance druids or warlocks.
If blizzard came out and announced officially that mage dps in TBC is where it will be in WoLK, serious raiding mages will abandon the class in droves. The problem isn't that mage dps is X which is equal to all the other classes' X average, but that mage dps is significantly behind X. As manly pointed out, if you could put 10 points into a talent like Playing With Fire, most mages would gladly do so. It perfectly reinforces everything that mages are (glass cannon) and would allow mages to really justify great damage because of their fragility and lack of great utility. Again, I'm not suggesting that mages should do 50% more damage than every other dps class in every situation no matter what. What I'm saying is that mage dps is behind competitive by at least 10% or so (far, far more for arcane)... so buffs to a talent like PWF work to bring mage dps *up to* the X you mentioned, where it should be.
Accoring to the last set of mage spec dps simulations posted on this forum Arcane (even with AB & the new 2T5) is now dead last on mage dps. Not to mention that casting AM is simply a joke now because of the terrible dps if you spam it or even weave it.
What do you think of the following "fix" to the arcane tree...
Change the AB debuff(+15% dmg, +200% mana, 3 stacks max, 3 second debuff) to apply the damage portion to any arcane damage spells. This would mean you could follow up 1 or more AB spells with AM, ArBr -- making both those spells have competitve dps AND make the arcane spec rotations somewhat interesting particuarly with Missile Barrage.
More clarification from Blue on Ignite Munching, as well as a host of other tidbits on Mage related issues.
Going back to FFB's "true" purpose, GC has listed it:
We created Frostfire Bolt for 3 reasons: an interesting new spell that would cause a lot of exploation into which talents, gear and rotations benefited the best, a solution for those fights in which a Frost mage shows up to a Frost-immune fight, and the keystone for a new Frost + Fire "elemental" build. If you want to go respec every fight, you can still do that. But with Frostfire, you should be able to do a lot more damage than if you hadn't respec'd at all.
The problem is that PvP mages would absolutely hate that. They would lose like 10 seconds worth of time in which to use Fingers of Frost -- then the fact they both only proc together *would* become an issue for PvP Mages (whereas currently its not) and you'd basically be forcing them out of the talent altogether.
To be fair, the entire reason for FoF is to mimic Frostbite-Shatter in a raid PvE setting, and the additional benefits to PvP were ancillary. I tend to think of them as unintended and disposable. The linking of Frostbite to FoF further reinforces the idea that PvP mages (and other mages fighting targets that are actually freezable) aren't "supposed" to double-dip from FoF. Rolling FoF into shatter like I suggested, or frostbite like you did, is more true to the original intent of FoF, and I think that not being able to use both FoF and frostbite can be seen as prevented unintended abuse, not a directed nerf.
Ok, I did a few more mana dump tests and here is what I came up with:
0-53-8 Fire Spec at lvl 70
I was a little off on my stats but here it is:
8143 Health
9913 Mana (10391 Mana with Int self buff)
1231 Fire SD
185 Hit
251 Crit (28.30% unbuffed Fire Crit)
115 Spell Haste
332 MP5 Non-Casting; 0 MP5 While-Casting
5-piece T6
Int + Mage Shield
Stopwatch: 1:10-1:30 (the lower end is actually closer to 1:20 but the last attempt was giving more then usual HS procs)
DPS: 1350-1500 (last attempt, because of the unusual amount of HS procs, gave me 1600 DPS).
Int + Molten Shield
Stopwatch: 1:02-1:10
DPS: 1550-1700
On every test I tried to keep scorch and Living bomb up at all times (3 fireballs then a LB). It can be annoying when you cast a LB before a Fireball because of the 1 second GCD between the two casts. But it does get complicated trying to weave in a Pyro when HS procs. Especially when HS procs off of the last of the 5 scorches and one is trying to weave in a LB at the same time.
Some talents are just harder to implement than they appear. What we think we can do with Torment of the Weak is instead let a certain number of spells (say the ones you want to use a lot) get the damage bonus. That keeps the basic idea intact in a way that we know will work.
Incoming change making it similar to spell impact ?
If this was to go through then a Fire build would spend even more points into Arcane as a secondary tree and there would be no way to spec for EP as well. This seems kind of unfair seeing as a Frost and an Arcane build will get their own hit-increasing talents and then have enough points to spent on a secondary tree. Why would fire have to sacrifice mana-regen and dps increasing talents for 3% hit?
No need to keep bumping. We are aware of the bug, and fixing it is just non-trivial. If we can't fix it, then we may change the talent, but it is a pretty cool one so that would be sad
I guess we won't see a fix or change to this ability any time soon. I don't think I care anymore, if testing with ZIT shows that the absolute loss is negligible then it doesn't really matter as long as we're balanced with this bug taken into account.
Would be nice if we could get an update on the Mirror Image spell regarding dps output, scaling with gear etc.
They must find it difficult....
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority.
"I think Evo is fine if mages don't run out of mana in 5 seconds. Evo could be part of that solution or not. "
Sigh.
edit: Will they ever realize what a counter-productive mechanic current evocate is? Do they realize the vast majority of the time we evocate between trash pulls and not during actual boss encounters?
Evo is fine if we don't run out of mana during boss encounters (except under extreme cases, obviously). The issue with Evo is when we do run out of mana. FWIW I made my own thread on the beta forums trying to highlight a lot of the mechanics issues, not just the "why do warlocks do more DPS than me" crap that's infested most of the threads.
09/29/08, 7:47 PM
