CHeeSY-CrAfT

I've tried applying slow to Sartharion, Malygos, Archavon, Tenebron, and Shadron. I'll try and get into Naxxramas as soon as possible to re-affirm, but it's not working in any of those situations as of last patch.

 

Jarlyn

Still only one Living Bomb on a target, FYI. Just tested.

 

Searix

Quick tests show you're wrong. Sartharion can have Slow cast on him (to apparently no effect), but the debuff stays and torment works

 

Xentropy

I hope very much this doesn't remain the case to Live. If it does, every guild will need an arcane mage mainly there just to keep Slow up and every other mage in the guild will need 18 arcane. 12% is enormous. Guilds were stacking for 5% before, they'll definitely stack for this.

This talent can NOT work on bosses or balance will not be possible.

Add the fact *some* bosses appear to be Slow immune but not others and it just adds even more insanity to raid formation.

 

f1reburn

Here's what it says on the European PTR (build 9038):

Missile Barrage Rank 5/5:
Gives your Arcane Blast, Arcane Barrage, Fireball, Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt spells a 20% chance to reduce the channeled duration of the next Arcane Missiles spell by 2.5 secs and missiles will fire every .5 secs.

 

maxi

Does Frostfire bolt debuff support Torment?

Also wanted to comment on this lil' bit in Hot Streak calculation provided:
The probability of first crit in a row being a streak is not equal to probability of second crit in a row being a streak. Though, given sufficiently large chain of casts, they seem to converge on the same value, so the error is not huge.

 

aikiwoce

Amplify/Dampen Magic's Healing Modifier is not functioning properly in WotLK. I reported the problem in detail here.

Condensed version for those that don't want to read the link -

"...Flash of Light Coefficient TBC - 42% of your +Healing
Amplify Magic(rank 6) - 240 +Healing on your target
Total Benefit to Flash of Light - 100.8 Effective +Healing done

In Wotlk it's a little bit different story as far as healing is concerned. The +Healing stat got translated into Spellpower at the rate of: "1 Spellpower(Wotlk) = ~1.8 +Healing(TBC)." There are 2 expected results for Amplify Magic with this change. The first being that the +Healing component got translated into Spellpower at the established exchange rate, or the +Healing is going to be directly exchanged for 1:1 for Spellpower. Here's the relevant information:

Flash of Light Coefficient WotLK - 100% of your Spellpower
Amplify Magic(rank 6) - 240 +Healing on your target
Possible Total Benefit 1 to Flash of Light - 240/1.8*100 = 133.33 Effective +Healing done
Possible Total Benefit 2 to Flash of Light - 240*100 = 240 Effective +Healing done
Observed Total Benefit to Flash of Light after testing - 240/1.8*2*100 = ~266.66 Effective +Healing done..."

I didn't have extremely large sample size, so someone may want to double check me. But, I'm fairly confident that healing spells are receiving more than the expected benefit from Amplify Magic.

Screenshot

 

Søndag

I can see that people still ask Dedmon qustions about the builds he uses in the sim, and since i'm sure he is busy enough with keeping the sim up to date, and our requests about different builds/rotations tend to run i an cirkle, why don't we try to make a simulated dps scorebord? I'll be happy to run the different specs/rotaions through the sim and try to keep an updated post where people can se how they compare to each other. (sorry for assuming on your part Dedmon, but i'd still like to se a maintained scorebord :P)

I know Dedmon would like a lvl 70 3.0 test run too, so perhaps we should agree on a set of gear for lvl 70 and 80, and perhaps we should also settle if we model with a slow_slave, scorch_slave or let the build do the best they can individually?
For lvl 70 i'd suggest something like this:

gear_stamina=423
gear_intellect=507
gear_spirit=229
gear_spell_power=1428
gear_spell_crit_rating=322
gear_spell_hit_rating=174
gear_haste_rating=358

Which is 4xT6 + Sunwell stuff, and the best set for a fire/frost mage i can come up with in Rawr, Arcane mages would surely gem different today.. but i think it will not hurt them that much in build 3.0..

Lvl 80:

gear_stamina=708
gear_intellect=777
gear_spirit=411
gear_spell_power=2200
gear_spell_crit_rating=461
gear_spell_hit_rating=368
gear_haste_rating=492

Lvl 80 is a bit harder right now, but i'd suggest we keep moving with the nax alike stats we use now, BUT assume hit cap - since we saw in an earlier thread that hitcapping will not be an endgame problem.

I'd prefer to treat snare/torment as a non raid thing for pvp/lvl'ing eventhough i know i works off bosses.. but i still hope it's a mistake, since i for one would hate to be the assigned "slow_mage" and spam slow through a whole raid.. But perhaps i could maintain 2 lists, one with and one without torment.

 

Roywyn

1) Have one mage cast scorch and slow, and the rest of them do "just DPS". Have that mage spec out of Focus Magic.
2) The other mages who have Focus Magic should cast it in a circle, that should be a decent way to assign the double damage benefit.
(It doesn't work like that in game, but it should be fine to measure the total DPS of a spec.)

3) Simcraft doesn't support new flasks, and my stat values have always includes all raid buff for spell damage, stats and crit/hit/haste rating, but not for total crit/hit/haste.
That means that at level 80, you should remove the flask from the action list and change spell power to 1920, so that it's 2200 with Totem of Wrath.

4) You can reduce hit by 79 and increase haste by 79 for all specs except Fire/Arc (without Precision) and the Scorch/Slow slave.
For Arcane/Fire like 53/18/0, try cloning that mage. Once with Fire hitcapped, and once with 79 more haste. The latter should do more DPS, but doesn't hurt making sure.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

dedmonwakeen

Thank you! I never felt comfortable with the profiles because I just didn't have the experience.

What is the consensus on JoW? I'm getting whiplash swapping between target-owned cooldown and player-owned cooldown.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Roywyn

Someone reported the behaviour as a bug, Maaven (the one who checks, replies to and locks all bug threads) seemed very surprised and required more reports, then locked it.

He didn't say "Working as intended" like ISB not affecting DoTs any more.
I'm guessing it's a bug, but I don't know really. I'm put mana analysis on hold until we know something more.

If I had to add it right now, I'd code JoW as a personal 4s cooldown.
It adds just mana after all. Could just add 2 Fire Mages, one with Mage and one with Molten Armour to estimate DPS losses if mana will be an issue (i.e. JoW on a raidwide CD).


MoE and Blizzard/AM/LB
Confirming that a wave with a crit returns 30% of 1/8 of the mana cost of Blizzard.
Arcane Missiles and Living Bomb don't return mana yet.

Living Bomb crits also don't drain mana from Burnout.
(Test: Stack combustion with Scorch, drink up. Then cast LB and use a gem/pot to get full mana. Mana stayed at the maximum value.)


Torment
Deathfrost Enchant doesn't trigger it on dummies. Frostfire Bolt DoT does trigger it. Not that it matters much.
Question is whether it works on bosses or not.


Amplify
Tested with a druid, Rejuvenation.
1210 healing power: 1149 healed (no weapon)
1727 healing power: 1452 healed
+480 amplify: +1734 healed
+720 amplify: +1875 healed

So, +0.586 HP healed per +healing power on the weapon swap.
+0.5875*480 HP healed by Amplify Magic.
+0.5875*720 HP healed by improved Amplify Magic.

So, Amplify Magic acts as pure healing spell power and nearly doubled it's value.
That's +150% better than the healing spell power from Totem of Wrath. Wow.


Trinkets
Sundial of the Exalted doesn't proc much/at all on Blizzard spam, while Serrah's Star and Valenforth's Remembrance still do.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Gediablo

Conjured Mana Strudel are now Unique 80. An expected change.

 

dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft has been updated for the latest patch (thanks Battlemaid!).

Sample out and some notable modeling details: SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Søndag

Good advice! and I'll run through the buff possiblities at lvl 80 to make sure were not missing anything there too.. The lvl 70 numbers i posted are including gems and enchantments, should i try to do that for lvl 80 too ?

 

Leialyn

Issn't the crit/noncrit of a cast determined when spell leaves your hand and therefore the 5% more manacosts from Burnout are included in the cost of the cast you just did? For LB and Missiles its not clear if a cast will crit or not and therefore not possible to increase the manacost without adding another spell event for those 2 spells only that drains the 5% when the spell crits... I guess thats not worth the effort for Blizzard.

 

Overmindzor

I am wondering where to place the last 3 points of this deep fire PVE build for the patch before Wrath:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000

My choices are Spell impact (6% more fireball dmg) or the last 3 points in Burnout (30% more crit-dmg-bonus).

With ignite the difference between 5 points in Burnout or 2 is 245% crits or 224% crits.

The two options against each others are therefore (incl. ignite to the crit total) 6% more fireball dmg or 21% larger crits.

With the patch my raiding crit-rate will exceed 50%, therefore I can't quite figure out what is best of the two options.

 

Pasture

It still boggles me why arcane blast isn't in this list. I thought they wanted us to use arcane blast more? This implies they want us to go with the arcane barrage / fireball rotations. Every other main nuke is in there bar blast. I think it will be a massive shame if we lose blast completely from our rotations.

 

Søndag

Looks to me that they are having trouble redesigning AB, and therefore they have left it out and intend us not to use it until they get it working..

 

Nastrodamus

On MMO Champ looks like the talent is still 20%....not sure what that's about because TotW has been changed in the talent tree *shrug*


Or THIS

 

Arazan

Hey ded, would it be possible for you to simcraft a specific mage build? It's the one I think I mentioned earlier designed for scorch spam and hot streak abuse... if you don't mind, here's the build I have in mind (note that I'm assuming TotW isn't intended for raid bosses so I didn't take it in the build):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000

Using a Scorch x4 / Fireblast rotation with Pyros on HS procs... if it'd be possible to plug that into simcraft I'd greatly appreciate it!

 

Roywyn

Not worth it, Scorch is simply a too terrible spell.
What kind of crit rates can we expect? 60%, but that requires a heavy emphasis on crit already.
Then 1/H = (1+0.6)/0.6^2 = 4.4 is the amount of casts we have between Hot Streak procs.

Being very generous, we cut that to 4 casts for a straight Sc*3/FiBl/Py rotation.
Scorch being 2.6k, Fire Blast being 3.7k and Pyroblast being 6.9k DPS.

That's about 3.7k DPS on average. Fireball spam alone has 3.5k DPS.
Fireball with Hot Streak is above 3.9k in a setting like that.

You may edge out a DPS gain at 100% crit rate, but not at less.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

cerebes

Just thought of something that might need to be tested with Fiery Payback. I'm not sure if anyone considers it a talent worth taking or not, but if you pick up Fiery Payback and Hot Streak would FP accidentally cause a 5 sec cooldown stopping the use of Hot Streak on multiple crits in a row? It might not even matter if no one uses Fiery Payback, but I just thought I would point it out.

 

dieseledge

What's the Frostfire build used in that version? 0/51/20ish?

 

Arazan

Oh I know, but they went a little psycho with pyroblast and fireblast's base damages because they don't seem to get the problem with cast-time based coefficients, so I was just curious where it'd end up. Honestly I just like tinkering around with random ideas and was curious where that'd end up... tbh I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to use a 0/53/18 build if you were trying to abuse Hot Streak as you could stack the buhjeezus out of crit to take advantage of FFB's amazing crit modifier and have fun with ~50-60% crit rates and big flashy numbers...


EDIT: Oh and just to clarify, I understand that using a faster casting spell doesn't increase your chance to proc hot streak, but every 4.4 casts is far different on scorch than fireball... really the whole experiment is just seing how much advantage you could take of Hot Streak. It just seems like one of those things waiting to be exploited.

 

Pasture

To be honest I think this extra 12% damage is a bit moot at the moment unless either the duration of Slow is increased considerably for pvp purposes or there are other ways of ensnaring.

Speaking as an arcane mage I would rather spec out of arcane than sit in a raid applying Slow every 15 seconds. I think you're going to have trouble finding mages willing to spec into Slow for the greater good of the other mages. So this 12% damage boost is very, very situational.

Out of interest how many mages would you need to even out the lost dps of the arcane mage?