Radenn

Currently on beta. If you have talents invested in molten fury, TotW will not activate on snares. Otherwise I've seen it work of any snare debuff. Can anyone else confirm this?

 

Sinless

I know it's still a little early to come up with very definite comparisons between spell dmg. and crit/haste/hit ratings. The relation between crit/haste/hit combat ratings are known @ level 80 and even though they change slightly with different specs (crit being more important for a frostfire spec than a frost spec for example) it is still easy to see the % increase in DPS with these combat ratings. My question is, how do they relate to spell dmg. Let me give an example.

Without going into any detail, at level 70, for a typical Sunwell fire/IV mage, TC will show that 1 haste rating is roughly equal to 1.2-1.3 spell dmg. Now, let's fast forward to level 80 with Naxx gear. The amount of haste rating required for a 1% speed increase is now 32.79 compared to 15.77 @ level 70. This means that, all things remaining the same, haste rating just lost 50% of its effectiveness compared to spell dmg. If your fireballs are hitting for the exact same amount, 1 haste rating now equals 0.6 spell damage.

However, now, @lvl 80, our average fireball damage has at least doubled. This means that the 1% DPS increase from haste rating has now caught up to the rating effect decrease @ level 80. Yes, now you need double the amount of haste rating compared to level 70 but since you are doing at least two times of damage you were doing @ 70, the relative value of haste and spell dmg. remained roughly the same.

So, my question is: If +1 spell dmg, increased your DPS by an amount of X at level 70, is it safe to assume it will still increase your DPS roughly the same amount assuming similar talents? However, since our damage has more than doubled from 70 to 80, haste/crit/hit ratings have increased two times in effectiveness?

Basically, I'm looking for a rough comparison chart between spell dmg. and combat ratings.

 

Roywyn

No worries, I had a look at that same thing before, particularly with Loatheb and 100% crit in mind.
Scorch spam is actually getting pretty close there. The deciding factor would be possible differences in Ignite bug behaviour.

50% crit isn't anything exciting, by the way. You get 38% crit just from talents, glyphs and buffs.
You'll start raiding with 50% crit and end raiding with perhaps 60%, that's barely a difference in feeling.

Stacking crit, hm. I'm still a tad sceptic, but FFB becoming competitive again pushes the value of crit up a lot for such a spec.
Crit gems are still worse than damage gems in Naxx-10 gear. Looking probably comparable in Naxx-25 with enough spell power.


Ignite Estimates
I was looking through some screenshots, checking my fireball crit rates and my Ignite damage on bosses.
And I realised I had no idea how much Ignite I should ideally. Hacked something on a sheet for clarity.

Crit Rate	Ignite with Fireball spam	Ignite with Frostfire Bolt spam
C	0.727*C/(1+1.5445*C)	0.945*C/(1+2.3075*C)
40%	18.0%	19.7%
50%	20.5%	21.9%
60%	22.6%	23.8%
100%	28.6%	28.6%

Crit rate is your crit rate. Ignite numbers are the percentage of your damage that comes from Ignite.
Your actual crit rate and your damage by Ignite are the first things you see in Recount, so you can check how must you gained/lost.
That assumes a CSD meta, but no 4T7 set bonus.

Comparing with some screenies I have, I lost 2% damage on a Loatheb kill and less than 1% on other boss fights.

I had actually downloaded your Ignite tracker before, but never copied it into my add-on folder. Sorry

Your average Fireball didn't double yet. It's pretty far off still. Maybe 50% more raw damage if you remove the damage multiplier debuffs, comparing level 70 and 80 both with 3.0 Mechanics.

You'll need about 3.5k spell power to do twice the damage from level 70. Only then will you get equal value on damage and haste gems again.

Check my Signature for sane estimates in Naxx-10 gear.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Zaldinar

If you would like some more definitive measurement,

http://zaldinar.bounceme.net/zit/zitv04.zip

The issue with using recount to measure is any mobs that die before the ignite is complete will "lose" you ignite damage. And since there are two bugs, one that gains and one that loses, knowing how much of each you came in contact with is meaningful.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

Sackobones

Any serious discussion in here on pre expansion post patch specs?

I have read a lot of theory crafting on post expansion raiding but my guild is still plugging away in sunwell and will do so till the expansion lands on us.

I am looking at possibly going frost to accommodate for the new mana mechanics.

 

Copernicus

It doesn't matter.

The basic goal that Blizzard has is that all DPS is around the same level - within 1-2% of each other. If Torment of the Weak requires another mage to be buffing it, there are two possible situations - a raid group stacks mages (who are balanced WITHOUT Torment of the Weak) and brings an arcane mage as a debuff bot. Or Mages are balanced with Torment of the Weak, and the raid groups don't bring them if there's not an arcane mage as a debuff bot.


To put it another way - conditional debuffs that affect DPS should be self-applied. As soon as a class relies on another class to apply them (not counting the list of raid buffs/debuffs that multiple classes or specs can use) it starts changing group composition and class balance in bad ways.

 

maxi

From what i recall reading, 11/50/0, 10/51/0 and 0/51/8+2 are your main choices, depending on mana situation.
But that was before the recent nerfs to spirit, introduction of 12% TotW and all other major stuff.

--------------------
Actually, I asked the same question quite a few times, and am yet to get a definite answer.

It seems people are reluctant to say "this will work in 3.0", because - well 3.0 is still not here, and we see some pretty huge changes on weekly basis.

Imo just watch this space. When the patch will be close to hitting, i expect all the answers to be finalised and posted.

 

Copernicus

Waiting on final builds - bugs such as only one Living Bomb per target or the strangeness of Torment of the Weak would cause issues with modeling.

 

bruda20

Hi!

Can anyone confirm that Frostfire Bolt gets 2x 3% Hit from Elemental precision?

I testet it with 11% hit on the gear, had no miss on 500 Casts on a Boss Dummy and Bosses in Naxxramas.
And for me it seems like the Frosfire Build with 2x Icy Veins is 2-5% ahead of any aother fire build.

I was first in DPS in naxx 25 yesterday on patchwerk.
here a Screenshot:
http://www.dei-ex-machina.de/album_pic.php?pic_id=452

 

Arazan

Are you sure that crit gems are worse than damage gems for elementalist builds, especially ones with hot streak? FFB benefits *far* more from crits than other spells do so relative values of crit and damage for frostbolt or fireball will be skewed a lot more toward crit for FFB...

Would someone mind doing the math for relative values of crit and damage for 0/53/18 FFB/hotstreak?

 

khemael

Hi,

According to the last "LastReport" of Simcraft, Arcane is upped. But in the config file there is no Arcane power used, and playing with molten armor. The fact is Molten Armor, even with the glyph, is not as good as Mage Armor + Glyph + ArcanePower And Arcane flows.

Simcraft Lastreport got this graph with this spec :



Spec : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323000515321


What I've done is I lost a MoE point, slow, etc, and come with this spec :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323102505321

Using Mage Armor with glyph, and Arcane Power everytime it's up, I got this graph using same gear as above :



I really don't know which one will be better with scaling, but the fact is that this one is better Naxx Geared.

 

Dragonrhonin

Question about this spec, you don't have slow but you still have TotW. Are you assuming another mage has slow, or has it been decided that Frostbolt/Frostfirebolt snare's apply to bosses? If they don't wouldn't it be better to get the two points in Student of the Mind and 1 more in MoE?

 

khemael

Mage_Arcane_Slow is here to refresh the debuff.

Also, the fire Mage use this spec assuming that Boss is snared Mage_Arcane_Slow

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000

Frostfire is using this one :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000

It seems then that if boss can't be snared and then TotW won't a benefit on boss, then Frostfire is actually the best build.

 

Sinless

I'd be very much interested in this, too. How much does crit gain in value for Frostfire specs?

 

Roywyn

The numbers for 80 looked quite good as enchanted/gemmed/flask.

I actually messed up a few things and ToW.
For Naxx-10, I now have: 2110 spell power, 302 crit, 290 hit (i.e. capped with precision), 523 haste, 744 sta, 653 int, 266 spi.
For Naxx-25, I have: 2534 pell power, 393 crit, 339 hit (overcapped with precision), 600 haste, 831 sta, 796 int, 138 spi.
I'm probably missing some of the very latest drops there.

Those are just the bonuses from gear, gems, enchant, flask, oil, food.
Base stats and class buffs should be added automatically.

The hit cap is 289 for 11% (with precision), and 341 or 342 for 14%.
Just switch excess point into haste or take lacking points from haste.
It's not the best way to do it, but it's better than nothing.
(Depending on the formulae and exactness, 341 should be 0.0006% below the hit cap).

As for the different specs:
I think Arcane with ABar-FB-MBAM cycles should be sustainable with Molten and Arcane Power when the current mana model is used.
In the same boat, try enabling Living Bomb for Fire/Frostfire specs, it should be sustainable. Maybe you'd have to switch to Mage Armour but I doubt it.

Total Frostfire crit bonus percentage is 50% higher than Fire crit bonus percentage, both including Ignites.
This doesn't make it 50% better though because Frostfire has a lower non-crit damage, so the absolute DPS gains is less.
The Ignite of Living Bomb, Pyroblast and the gain of additional Hot Streak procs are the same.

So, ballpark 30%-35% better, 40% tops.
Compare with the weights in the signature, crit would have to be 75% better to break even on gems.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

khemael

According to last SimulationCraft version, This rotation with Arcane power+Arcane Flows was unsunstainable with molten armor, it was 11% raid downtime for a 300 sec fight, using SimulationCraft LastReport baseline config file modified to use AP+AF.

 

Roywyn

Wow, that's pretty astonishing to be honest that mana is indeed that tight for a normal Arcane cycle.

Try three more hacks for mana:
Evcation to 11250 for non-arcane, 12650 for arcane.
Mana Potion to 4300.
Mana gem to 4781 - that's with 2/5 T7, a 40% bonus.

With that extra mana, Arcane should live quite a bit longer.
And FFB specs should be able to dump quite a bit of mana via Living Bombs. And FB specs too.

I'll be updating the first post in a day or two, yell if you want something more added.

Also:
Looking for people with 4/5 T7 who can help determine how the set bonus works.
0) Spec frost, you probably are already.
1) Equip 4T7, port to theramore. No debuffs on dummies by other player.
2) Blizzard the whole lot. Check your hit and crit damage with Blizzard.
3) If you have a CSD meta on, try to take your helm off and repeat that test.

4) Submit data. Happy Mage! Happy Gnome!

[Edit]: Yeah, Torment throws a monkey wrench into everything.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

khemael

I tried your hacks for mana, and the result is there is still 3% raid downtime for arcane spec with AP+AF with Molten Armor (Down from 11% raid downtime before).
This is a 9sec Downtime for a 300sec fight, which might be quite "easy" to avoid, but without 2/5 T7, it might be lot more difficult.

The fact is this spec assume 3/3 TotW,

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323102505321

Then if TotW doesn't work on Bosses, these points could go to MoE+Student of the mind completion :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323102505321

But TotW not working would make Arcane Spec 12% worse than in my graph, Just as Fire spec would be downed, and then frostfire build might be "the" way to go, since it's high dps spot without point in TotW.

EDIT :

Since you'll update your post soon, I think it would be usefull to compare Pure Arcane build with AB/ABar/MBAM rota with FB/ABar/MBAM rota, with and without TotW.
FireBall is for sure the best filler with TotW working on bosses since it benefits from it, but without it there is a real cast-time VS scaling duel between AB and FB. Maybe the fact that AB is shorter cast time than FB, allowing more ABar, and +6% crit, it could beat FB filler with ignite ? But the fact is also that a pure arcane build might not use PoM+Pyroblast, which is with World in Flames and Ignite a real Up. Also, Pure Arcane build might not access to MoE. But some dps could be found here with Frost tree.
Also, PoM+MBAM is a great use of PoM since the new Arcane Potency, just as Clearcast+MBAM is. (PoM+MBAM Macro will make all the five AM ticks get the +30% crit, and a well placed Arcane Barrage right after the MBAM will still benefits from the +30% crits. After that you also got an instant AB, making it as good dps as a 3stacks AB on 2.4 live. Then yes, PoM+MBAM/ABar/AB/ABar is some kind of great dps, but it seems simcraft can't model it).

What I've got in mind is something like that (4 mobile points)

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...50323102505321

Also with this build there is a serious issue with Mana, since Arcane Power with Arcane Flows + Icy Veins with Ice Floes would be some kind of hard mana dump :/.
But this build also benefits from EP, and then some hit might be thrown for spirit/mp5 ?

 

Roywyn

Molten with 3% downtime might actually beat Mage Armour, not sure.

AB is faster than FB, but it just doesn't do any good damage.
FrB is much closer to FB in total cycle DPS with the same talented 2.5s cast time.
AB has about 1% less scaling than FrB, both at 2.5s cast time.
AB has Impact, Incineration. FrB has Piercing Ice, Ice Shard, and a possible glyph.

Frost wins that because the extra crit is really significant when you're near 50% crit raid buffed.

The only thing in favour or AB is mana, and an the sim states that mana is really tight for Barrage specs.
AB is in fact so cheap that you might be able to switch to Mage Armour.
But with a frost off-spec, you can get FC for 10% cost reduction.

It's a pretty large mess and headache of choice there.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Faxmonkey

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but why would you need an arcane mage to cast slow?

For Torment of the Weak to work, we need a debuff that does 2 things: a) Snare and b) ANYTHING ELSE. The "b" part is essential because otherwise the boss will be immune to it. Thus Frostbolt debuff is a no go, as is Frost Shock.

However, it seems to me, the obvious candidate, rather than a self-sacrificing arcane mage, is just to have *1* Frostfire Mage and all others be Torment of the WEak + fire Spec mages. We know Frostfire bolt works with torment of the weak, and bosses aren't immune to it because the DoT and Snare are combined into one debuff.

Simple, right?

Not sure why people are complicating this with Slow . . .

 

Arazan

Because things that can be applied to a raid boss that counts toward TotW are being systematically removed, and Slow is one of the few remaining things that can be put on some bosses. People don't seem to grasp that TotW won't be usable on raid bosses barring some horrific dps loss, like being forced to reapply Slow every 15 seconds.

 

PsyBomb

Big news straight from Ghostcrawler:

This is pretty significant for several reasons. Besides the mana reduction (no word on how much), he notably cuts off the theory of lowering Evocation cooldowns or removing it. This news is even bigger for Arcane Blast, as even very minor differences in its starting cost end up making a massive difference if you're doing execute-range blast spam.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Faxmonkey

But isn't Frostfire bolt still one of those things?

 

PsyBomb

I think Arazan was being facetious. Thanks for the smack upside the head, Faxmonkey. I probably should have seen it a while ago, but with the #2 DPS spec already providing the Snare for Torment, mage specs become "Frostfire" and "Single-tree with Torment". I'm hoping this does not turn out to be the case, but that's the way it's looking.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Enthorn

Nevermind, I understand. You mean only one Living Bomb debuff on a mob, regardless of the number of mage's casting Living Bomb. Yes, this would be a bug. Though, in regards to Torment of the Weak, I don't thing the strangeness lies in that, but rather in how mobs react to snare debuffs. Blizzard really hasn't been changing many things with the mage class per build. It's minor tweaks here and there. While this issue with Living Bomb, and whether there is a snare applicable to all bosses, are present, I'd still rather see issues addressed such as... Combustion's scaling (rather, how it scales backwards in DPS as crit increases), and single target DPS builds vs AoE builds.

However, Blizzard has said they are still looking at spec swapping. So it's possible in the near future we'll be able to raid with a single target and an AoE build. I would rather have one build for both single target and AoE though, as fire, and another build for PvP. But money sinks are needed, regardless.