Xentropy

The breakeven is actually much lower for fire spec, since you'll be chain-casting fireballs and only the first tick of the dot is being lost anyway. The case Lhivera said above that a mage would NOT use the glyph is for frost specs just casting fireballs on brain freeze procs...those are likely to tick fully out, and the 1-2% final damage increase (to a small portion of a frost mage's bottom line, at that) isn't worth one of your three valuable major glyph slots.

 

Attica

You bring up a good question which I never considered until you mentioned it- does anyone know exactly how inscriptions will work? Will they become bound to you and are destroyed if replaced (very much like how gems currently work) or can you swap/store them?

Agreed. I don't understand how you can completely remove the snare effect. However, I wouldn't be against them lowering it to, say, 10%.

 

Lhivera

Compared to the penalty Fireball receives, lowering it by 10 or 20% would be more equitable. However, even lowering it to 10% would at least permit it to work with Frostbite, and I could live with that. It'd still be 30% with Permafrost and CttB.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

PsyBomb

Ah, thanks Lhiv. I forgot to account for crit, there, that's what threw the numbers

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Prinsesa

The Priests have a similar Glyph:

Glyph of Mind Flay - Increases the range of your Mind Flay spell by 10 yards, but it no longer reduces the target's movement speed.

The idea is that both Mind Flay and Frostbolt's snares are completely useless for a raid boss, so you might as well either gain some more damage (for a Mage) or gain a 30 yard baseline range (for a Priest).

Unlike enchants or gems, datamining UI messages indicates that Glyphs are removable without needing replacement, so if you ever find yourself out in the field and in a situation where you suddenly need the snare back, you just take it off and get it back.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Zeldyrr

Hmmm. I just looked through the hunter glyphs and don't see any negatives attached to them. Why do mages have to have negatives attached to their glyphs?

I can see it in the case of a non-core spell like Pyroblast. Change it completely and it might appeal to people in completely different situations. But leave core abilities like fireball and frostbolt alone.

If 5% is to high, then just make it 3% more damage with no penalty and leave it at that.

But the glyph is destroyed in the process? Meaning you have to buy / create another one before the next raid? How expensive are these to make? If it is like an elixir or two, fine. If it costs the same as a high-level enchant, that could quickly make flask costs seem cheap in comparison.

 

Lhivera

If glyphs can simply be toggled on and off, then there is no problem whatsoever with the Frostbolt glyph.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Muphrid

I imagine, then, that they are simply not switchable during combat?

That strikes me as odd, though. While that would be very convenient for people, once you have all of your class's glyphs made, it's simply a matter of "Which glyphs do I need for this situation? Let me get out my InscriptionRack and switch them out." I don't see how Inscription will be viable as a profession in the long run if glyphs are indefinitely reusable in that manner. Can the number of people leveling to 80 after the initial wave of 70s rushing to 80 really sustain a whole profession?

 

Zeldyrr

I think the concept suggested above is not for an infinite collection of glyphs. You still have 6 slots (or 7, if you have inscription as a profession). You can just "turn them off" if you want and not use one (or more) of your glyphs momentarily.

If you want to replace a glyph (as opposed to turning it off) then you to nuke the old one, just like you do with gem slots.

I'm still not sure what the cost associated with turning them on or off is, though. Is it a simple UI switch?

 

Prinsesa

Yes, the UI messages do indicate that removal of the Glyph also destroys it.

However, none of these Glyphs are currently craftable, so we really have no idea at this point how the system is going to work.

The cost of making Glyphs, their permanence, their swappability are all up in the air.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

dedmonwakeen

SimulationCraft has been updated with support for the relevant Mage Glyphs.

SubVersion code repository only. The download was just released so it may be a few days before its gets updated.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

JonIrenicus

I think if they changed the no slowing effect to simply reducing the slow ammount (ie. from 40% base snare to 20% base snare)

that would be ALOT more reasonable.

 

Cwealm

Not to turn this into a qq fest, but you are right. All the other classes released tonight seem to have glyphs where they are straight buffs to skills. Weird.

 

Prinsesa

Please don't think your class is getting singled out.

Glyph of Immolation Trap - Decreases the duration of the effect from your Immolation Trap by -6000 sec., but damage while active is increased by 100%.
Glyph of Wyvern Sting - Decreases the cooldown of your Wyvern Sting by 0 sec., but decreases the damage it deals by 1 to 0%.

Glyph - Garrote - Increases periodic damage dealt by Garrrote by 45%, but decreases the duration by 3 sec.
Glyph - Ghostly Strike - Increases the damage dealt by Ghostly Strike by 50% and the duration of its effect by 4 sec., but increases its cooldown by 10 sec.

Glyph of Renew - Reduces the duration of your Renew by 3 sec. but increases the amount healed per time by 40%.
Glyph of Mind Flay - Increases the range of your Mind Flay spell by 10 yards, but it no longer reduces the target's movement speed.

Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.
Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for -50% less initially but also heals for 196% of its inital effect over 1 to 0 sec.

Glyph of Healing Touch - Decreases the cast time of Healing Touch by 1.5 sec. the mana cost by -25% and the amount healed by -50%
Glyph of Moonfire - Increases the periodic damage of your Moonfire ability by 75% but initial damage is decreased by -90%.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Alvira

so arcane blast doesn't get any glyph?

 

JonIrenicus

Here is the rub with that rationale, I am not sure whether frostbolt with that glyph would ALSO lose the 5% snare penalty on damage. If it did not, you would essentially cancel out the snare penalty with this glyph, but that is not enough, this glyph should remove the snare penalty completely in its current form. If it does not its a true disgrace since you are essentially breaking even on what frostbolt should be instead of buffing it.

It's like the 5% from chilled to the bone "buff" to frostbolt but taking into acount the 5% loss to the spell to to newly affected resistances and a net 3% less spell hit to the spell, where is the buff really?

 

Enthorn

I am quite satisfied with the current array of gylphs.

As said above, 80% in combat mana regen is definitely intriguing. As well, 2% bonus to molten armor's crit is pretty nice. That's 5% crit from armor that you won't need from gear. Yes, 2% is relatively low, but consider that Blizzard said glyphs are supposed to be the equivalent of 1-2 talents. Comparatively, the molten armor glyph is worth approx 1 talent points, when compared to Critical Mass, the only talent that increases all Fire spell crits without anything additional (since Pyromaniac also reduces mana cost). I'd say that's a pretty good glyph then, and on the right track.

The polymorph glyph is definitely PvP oriented, but it could have potential uses in PvE. IT comes down to whether there are DPS increasing glyphs that could be used instead of it. It also depends if your raid members are idiots, since that's basically what the bonus covers. "Sheep that target." -- "I can't, someone DoTed it."

Edit: wotlkwiki.info does list which glyphs are minor/major, although only 5 of 22 glyphs listed are minor, and none are lesser. I'm assuming there will be more glyphs upon release -- things that deal with fire AoE, etc.

 

Muphrid

Having read Prinsesa's post more closely, it seems to me the implication is that, unlike a gem--which can only be "removed" by being replaced--glyphs are under no such restriction. That is, you don't need to have another glyph to be able to remove an existing glyph, should the need arise. I don't read Prinsesa's remark as implying that glyphs can be toggled on and off at will.

That said, such a system would be fairly desirable. As has been pointed out, the Frostbolt glyph is really a mixed bag; while it enhances some situations, it proves a serious detriment in others. From a game theoretic standpoint, there is no problem with this, but from a psychological standpoint, if people as a whole frame this as "get something for losing something," that's very different from "start at a baseline and get one thing or get something else" (which is how talents may be framed).

I'm not wholly sure that will be the case; it may be people will frame glyphs as they do talents, but only time will tell.

 

Malfeas

The Frostbolt glyph should be simply changed to affect Frostfire bolt instead. I think we could all live with losing its snare, especially with FFB's lack of an Empowered talent.

 

Lhivera

It's mainly a big problem when you compare it to other primary nuke glyphs.

Fireball: Major upside (worth about 4 talent points), virtually zero downside.

Shadow Bolt: Major upside (worth about 5 talent points), zero downside.

Frostbolt: Major upside (worth about 5 talent points), enormous downside (dramatically devalues 6 talent points, slightly devalues 5 talent points, dramatically reduces the value of the spell outside of a single environment).

Is it a problem if all you care about is DPS against raid bosses? No, I guess not...but Fireball loses barely any of its value when taken out of that environment, and Shadow Bolt loses no value at all. Why hit Frostbolt so hard?

The earlier suggestion to switch this effect to Frostfire Bolt seems reasonable. Frostbolt's glyph could be something more creative, perhaps a 4% chance for your next Ice Lance cast to treat the target as Frozen (something analogous to the Corruption glyph).

ETA: Post on beta board claims FFB is no longer double-dipping effects.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

itchytf

Edit: ignore, already asked

 

Aramezzet

An extra Major Glyph is an enormous benefit. Huge. For raid DPS, Arcane will want glyphs of both Mage Armor and Mana Gem, and Frost will want Frostbolt and Water Elemental. That's more than enough of a reason to take it. Fire, however, might not get anything out of it. I guess we'll see.

 

Roywyn

That's good news in that we finally seem to know where we're heading.

On the bright side, this might have been the mysterious "Factor Two"!


* With the Fireball glyph, Frostfire Bolt's DPCT including 3 DoT ticks (no Permafrost) is still very very slightly (~0.5%) ahead.
That's for a 0/51/20 fire spec, and the difference is really really small.

* For raid DPS, 0/18/53 FrB is slightly (~1%) above 0/30/41 FFB specs with the FrB glyph. Loosing a lot of utility, but then again you can use FFB for slowing.
In a Frost spec, FFB's DPCT with 3 DoT is also very slightly above FrB's DPCT, so it's quite alright for slowing.
You do however lose Frostbite procs which is significant if you are the only DPSer.

(That's completely ignoring Water "Tide" Elemental.)

For the Water Elemental, I guess the cooldown will be 2 minutes ((180s - 30s)*80% = 120s) if it's handled like cast time modifiers, 6s less if it's not.

* The Scorch Glyph looks really nice for add fights and phase fights.
If we get another zone like T5, this will be a godsend.


If the level cap is indeed 80, then I'll wait until someone gets there and determines the level 80 base mana before making any important changes.

Trinket Stacking? - Debunked, they still share a cooldown.
Someone mentioned somewhere that you can now stack damage trinkets again with this patch. Can anyone check that claim?
You'd have to use two BC "non-healer" trinkets to test for anything new, because "healer" spell power trinkets have always stacked.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Ulthwithian

You're right, Prinsesa, in that Mages are not the only class that receives glyphs that change rather than simply buff their abilities. However, I think the concern here with Mages is that the Frostbolt (which AFAIK is the only glyph that really applies) glyph actually makes it less desirable even in the situations to what it is supposed to pertain.

As others have said, the Frostbolt snare has value even in boss fights. Most of the above glyphs change functionality, but the new functionality has no downsides inside that functionality. The argument being presented by the Frost mages is that the Frostbolt glyph does have downsides even inside its intended functionality.

 

Prinsesa

This has been discussed several times in the Professions thread. There are several options:

* Glyphs are hot-swappable and permanent. Do not assume that Glyphs are the "money-maker" for Inscription at all. Inscription can craft Scrolls of Spirit/Strength/Agility/Etc., which have the potential to be as in demand for raiding as current flasks and elixirs, since they are another layer of buffs for the min-maxing crowd.

* Glyphs are hot-swappable, but expire over time. This allows Glyphs to be steadily in-demand without the inconvenience of having to have your Glyphs recrafted every time you respec or otherwise have to use different ones.

* Glyphs are hot-swappable, but are charged, and using them in a Glyph slot consumes a charge. Same as above, except people who do not constantly change roles can save on Glyph recrafts

* Glyphs are hot-swappable, permanent, but expensive. We're looking at ~20 glyphs per class, almost all of which will want to be bought by a player at one point or another. Even if you only need just one set of Glyphs, EVER, that's still a relatively large market.

Finally, an Inscriber can unlock a 4th Major inscription slot as his profession-specific perk. This may be reason enough for a person to consider being an Inscriber himself, although that does depend on his class, the scope of the gameplay areas he participates in, and the usefulness brought by that 4th potential Glyph.

Moderators: I apologize for the derail, but I thought it was appropriate given the current Glyph discussion. If this is too OP, let me know and I'll take it to PMs.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler