WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 120

Stormhole · 10/08/08, 4:11 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

I wouldn't necessarily call Tailoring a bad profession. Over a full clear of Naxx-10, the lightweave cloak enchant did about 2% of my overall damage. If we roughly convert this into a combat rating, such as +hit, it's around 2x26 ~ 52 hit rating compared to +38 spell damage for enchanting.

Of course, this is with a mixture of Naxx 10/25 gear, so as my gear gets better the cloak enchant will definitely get worse because it doesn't scale at all. I currently do about 4.5kish dps on Patchwerk, and I don't think I'll be doing 9k even with 25-man Icecrown citadel gear, so I'll go ahead and say that even though the approximate contribution of 52 hit rating of the cloak enchant will decrease over time, it will never go below 30ish hit rating which roughly equals what you get from enchanting which is considered to be the best profession for us mages.

Your numbers seem to be off at least from the parses of the Naxx-25 you did with us.
From the parse of the run that you did with us you 711,273 damage @ ~4k dps on Patchwerk.

Patchwerk : Synless

Of which 5959 damage was lightweave bolt. Thats 0.8%, not 2%.
The cape enchant is 23 haste, which is about 0.75% haste, which is in the same ballpark.

Gluth: 657490 damage, 5,197 was Lightweave bolt.
Gluth : Synless

Thaddius: 2.3M damage, 21k was lightweave bolt.
Thaddius

Grobbulus: 438632 damage, 4,508 was lightweave bolt
Grobbulus : Synless
You died early, so it not being affected by molten fury probably increased its contribution.

From the parses, it is consistently peforming at <1%.

Originally Posted by Lemming

I'm pretty sure I've seen you on some of the better-geared nax25 dps parses, so I'm assuming you have used these flasks, but are you sure all flasks get +50% effect? Everywhere I'm reading (except a couple random posts with no real source of information) says that Mixology+Frost Wyrm Flask only gives an extra 37 SP. If its true that it gets 62SP, then that does make an easy choice for first profession.

I was using Flasks but I'm not an alchemist atm.

This is what one of the paladins in our raid with mixology told me in terms of how much his SP changed. I must admist haven't followed the profession changes closely, and I'm going by what could be old data.

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

I'd honestly prefer a mechanic like lifetap or AotV; where you turn down your DPS when you need mana and turn it back up once you're ok for mana. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the design for mages; we get as much passive regen as we bring in before the fight and beyond that you have X mana to last you the whole fight. MPS usage would equal total MPS Minus Regen, then your total mana bar would equal (Manabar*1.6(evoc))+3gems+1pot... So what you end up with is finite mana but a malleable regen value to stretch that finite mana on a per-fight basis. This wouldn't matter too much if those options for stretching your regen were all in the form of base abilities; but 2 out of 3 of those regen options are talents/glyphs... not things that are easily changed on a fight-per-fight basis. And thats ignoring the need to carry a 2nd set of spirit gear. The nature of LifeTap means its hard to group warlocks up with mages in terms of mana mechanics. SPs and mages have a lot in common on mana mechanics but Warlocks are closer to hunters in terms of how they get mana.

A lot of the discussion about Mage Armor vs. Molten for non arcane specs doesn't factor into account that glyph slots are a very limited resource one has to live with.

If I am speccing Fire, I will be picking up at least 2/3 meditation and be going 20/51/0. It is easy to get hit from gear and if you go 14 arcane 51 fire, that means you need to eat 5 fillers for 1 point in precision which isn't worth it.

If I am going Frostfire, I will be speccing 2/51/18 or 0/51/20, and given how much easier Ffb is on mana, I don't see the need for Mage Armor especially since they posted it is also being included in the mana cost reduction pass.

Basically, the glyphs really skew the DPS balance between them. It is an immense DPS loss to be using just mage armor, and not using molten armor is a waste of a glyph slot.

Gediablo · 10/08/08, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Søndag

Simcraft Mage Scoreboard
Realistic builds: (these builds should be close to what we could use)

5068 Mage_FrostFire - actions=scorch,debuff=1/living_bomb/combustion/icy_veins/pyroblast,hot_streak=1/frostfire_bolt

As far as I remember Flamethrowing doesn't affect FFB. I think a Mage_FrostFire build would make more sense (2 extra points in World in Flames rather than flamethrowing)

Vand1 · 10/08/08, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gediablo

As far as I remember Flamethrowing doesn't affect FFB. I think a Mage_FrostFire build would make more sense (2 extra points in World in Flames rather than flamethrowing)

Except that you are then stuck with 30 yard scorches and 35 yard pyros/LBs. I might be more inclinded to drop DB/BW in order to pick up both flamethrowning and WiF. A FFB build is going to have a very strong blizzard spell for AoE, and WiF gives you extra blizzard crits and extra pyro crits.

Søndag · 10/08/08, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Gediablo

As far as I remember Flamethrowing doesn't affect FFB. I think a Mage_FrostFire build would make more sense (2 extra points in World in Flames rather than flamethrowing)

I'll give it a go first thing tomorrow.. note to self:carry your setup on a usb stick, so you can try things a work!

Originally Posted by Vand1

Except that you are then stuck with 30 yard scorches and 35 yard pyros/LBs. I might be more inclinded to drop DB/BW in order to pick up both flamethrowning and WiF. A FFB build is going to have a very strong blizzard spell for AoE, and WiF gives you extra blizzard crits and extra pyro crits.

I don't now how fights are going to be in Wotlk, but in BC as an arcane mage you never had much range, and just learn to live with it. I'm not saying range is not usefull but if there is no reason exept comfort to taking it, then hey..

Celani · 10/08/08, 4:56 PM

Where are the WotLK tailored equivalants to the Blasting, Nimble Thought, and Sunfire? The specialty cloth entry pieces are pure garbage, the lightweave enchant is no better than a standard haste enchant, and the BoP leg kits are no better (just cheaper). Where is my compelling reason to keep tailoring? It's not something anyone liked having to level or re-level, so the decision to drop it requires serious thought.

Nurru · 10/08/08, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by Celani

Where are the WotLK tailored equivalants to the Blasting, Nimble Thought, and Sunfire?

None of these were available at the expansion's release and the patterns were obtained via raid progression. Besides, does anyone actually want another mess like Sunfire Robe?

Prandur · 10/08/08, 5:03 PM

Why even consider a "slow"-slave? If ToTW works on raid bosses, a feral druid can provide the required snare effect automatically:

Infected Wounds Rank 3
Your Shred, Maul, and Mangle attacks cause an Infected Wound in the target. The Infected Wound reduces the movement speed of the target by 25% and the attack speed by 10%. Stacks up to 2 times. Lasts 12 sec.

I personally hope ToTW does work on bosses, mages would then actually become quite good again with the 12% extra damage.

Rayeth · 10/08/08, 5:10 PM

I think the better application of tailoring perks would be the Spellfire, Spellstrike and Frozen Shadoweave sets. Rather than the raid drop items which probably haven't shown up yet this early in raid progression.

I don't think we've seen anything as good as those sets were. Which IMO is a good thing. Spellfire, Spellstrike, and Frozen Shadoweave were too good.

Carnivean · 10/08/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Prandur

Why even consider a "slow"-slave? If ToTW works on raid bosses, a feral druid can provide the required snare effect automatically:

Infected Wounds Rank 3
Your Shred, Maul, and Mangle attacks cause an Infected Wound in the target. The Infected Wound reduces the movement speed of the target by 25% and the attack speed by 10%. Stacks up to 2 times. Lasts 12 sec.

I personally hope ToTW does work on bosses, mages would then actually become quite good again with the 12% extra damage.

As already posted 20 times in this thread. it was tested and it doesn't work.
Please for the love of god, read more than the last page before you come into a thread and claim things you have not properly researched.

TTWis a horrible concept for a raid as stated and backed up sever times over the last en pages or so.

Prandur · 10/08/08, 5:53 PM

Actually, no, all I read was that ttw does not work with molten fury on other snares than slow, which is obviously a bug either way - either it will work with/without MF on all snares, or it won't.

And as for judging whether it will/will not work based on it being a horrible concept, well, no. You make builds and calculations based on how WoW works, not based on what you consider is right or not. I personally would like an extra 12% to damage in a raid environment, no matter how stupidly the talent is designed.

dieseledge · 10/08/08, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by Gediablo

As far as I remember Flamethrowing doesn't affect FFB. I think a Mage_FrostFire build would make more sense (2 extra points in World in Flames rather than flamethrowing)

Range is always good to have in mobile fights. Flamethowing increases the range of pyroblast and scorch, 2 important spells for a Frostfire mage. I prefer the convenience of a 36 yard scorch if I need to keep the debuff refreshed. It makes your positioning requirements much more flexible in fights where raids must spread out or be outside a specific range from a boss.

Drayerina · 10/08/08, 6:46 PM

Originally Posted by Prandur

Actually, no, all I read was that ttw does not work with molten fury on other snares than slow, which is obviously a bug either way - either it will work with/without MF on all snares, or it won't.

And as for judging whether it will/will not work based on it being a horrible concept, well, no. You make builds and calculations based on how WoW works, not based on what you consider is right or not. I personally would like an extra 12% to damage in a raid environment, no matter how stupidly the talent is designed.

You realize that Blizzard won't give you 12% *more* damage, do you? If ttw stays at it is now, they will design mage dps around it, and it would be way better for us if the talent doesn't exist.

arch · 10/08/08, 8:53 PM

I'm a little concerned about the aoe aspect of the fire tree. Flamestrike is still a bad spell in regards to targeting and spamming, living bomb is decent but if the mobs don't have enough health to live for 12 seconds it won't even go off - especially since it doesn't explode on death. Blastwave is good but the knockback might be causing issues at times (though I wouldn't want it removed).

That leaves dragon's breath which actually had it's cone fixed to be exactly the same as CoC and they don't share cd anymore - which are two very positive changes for this spell.

And of course, firestarter which is just over the top in my opinion, we don't need this many aoe talents so this one should go. Besides, it doesn't fit in any deep fire spec.

The entire aoe playstyle of fire is just filled with minor annoyances.

Vhad · 10/08/08, 9:20 PM

The problem with the AoE talents are that they aren't good. Really. There's ALOT of aoe in fire, even more aoe talents, and they aren't really good. Flamestrike is bad for reasons told a million times, dragons breath requires you to be in melee range and at melee it's still going to be better to use Arcane explosion. Blastwave knocks back and is HORRIBLE for pve. Living bomb needs to be redone, because it's simply not good enough at the moment, it has to be able to be on more targets now that it doesn't knock up.

The problem with all our aoe is that you have to spec into them for them to be useful, our aoe doesn't go from viable to good, it goes from awful to viable by speccing a certain way.

In nax25 yesterday on beta, I found it a bit disheartening that Deathknights and Hunters did a ton more AoE than I did spamming Blizzard with frost spec. Anecdoctal, sure, but it's funny that one of our trademarks - kings of aoe - is just not true right now.

Finkum · 10/08/08, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

None of these were available at the expansion's release and the patterns were obtained via raid progression. Besides, does anyone actually want another mess like Sunfire Robe?

The only thing wrong with Sunfire Robe was its ridiculously low drop rate (true for most of the Sunwell trash patterns). In all other respects it is identical in concept to the Blasting and Nimble Thought BoE recipes and as far as I am aware no one had particular issues with those.

I think it was Roywyn who somewhere upthread pointed out that Sunfire Robe was actually a better DPS piece than the new Wrath tailoring epics, which considering the 40 ilevel difference, and in conjunction with the poor cloak enchants, is a bit depressing for those of us who have collected a fair number of rare recipes and are thus eager to retain the profession if at all possible.

Nurru · 10/08/08, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Finkum

The only thing wrong with Sunfire Robe was its ridiculously low drop rate (true for most of the Sunwell trash patterns). In all other respects it is identical in concept to the Blasting and Nimble Thought BoE recipes and as far as I am aware no one had particular issues with those.

You're comparing a BoP best in slot item that was incredibly rare to two patterns that dropped fairly often and resulted in BoE items (which admittedly were best in slot at the time). I don't mind having items from professions be useful for a tier or two, but they should not be the end all for gear in those slots and the profession's BoP usefulness should not be contingent on you being lucky enough to obtain some rare pattern.

eaglesrock · 10/08/08, 11:23 PM

so i dont think i have seen this mentioned at all but will the exalted BT trinket be a viable trinket now?

We will be pushing 50-60% crit so it seems that the 145 haste would be up a majority of the time, moreso for arcane specs but fire as well.

Finkum · 10/08/08, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

You're comparing a BoP best in slot item that was incredibly rare to two patterns that dropped fairly often and resulted in BoE items (which admittedly were best in slot at the time). I don't mind having items from professions be useful for a tier or two, but they should not be the end all for gear in those slots and the profession's BoP usefulness should not be contingent on you being lucky enough to obtain some rare pattern.

There are direct equivalents to the Sunfire recipe in BoE pattern/BoP item terms (i.e. Boots of Blasting, Shoulders of Nimble Thought). The Boots are best in slot at the tier at which they are available, just like the Robes. I really don't see how the Sunfire Robes are any different except in regard to their rarity, which I think we both agree was annoying and silly.

Morgannon · 10/09/08, 12:04 AM

Tailored gear being better than raid gear was fun at the beginning of Karazhan when my Spellfire was amazingly OP. Then it got a lot less fun when I was still in that gear through the next two major 25-man instances. Not fun. Regardless of whatever drives any given raider to continue playing, looting stuff is a nice feeling on occasion. If all Tailoring has to offer is more Spellfire/Sunfire, I'm ready to move on.

Finkum · 10/09/08, 12:28 AM

Spellfire/Shadoweave were in a completely different league than Blasting/Sunfire. I don't think anyone believes that the former were balanced. Raid drop patterns are provided as direct alternatives to boss drops so, as long as they don't stretch over 2.5 tiers of content (like spellfire/shadoweave does), they should give the same "nice feeling."

-Abakus- · 10/09/08, 12:44 AM

Originally some suggested changes, but i decided not to waste the post.

On the PTR, I can confirm JoW can proc off of AM on cast, AND on hit (6 total), and provides a "mana shatter combo" with Fireball and Arcane Barrage when used at the same time (i.e. a typical arcane rotation), thus both spells can proc it before the CD activates.

Furthermore, casting ABr in the middle of channeling Arcane Missiles will interrupt AM, which might give a notable DPS loss for players with poor latency.

CHeeSY-CrAfT · 10/09/08, 12:49 AM

I apologize if this has been covered, but with 4-piece Frostfire I got the following results:

1600 spell damage, Arcane Missiles (rank 13), no CSD, no talents.

Hit: 819 arcane damage Arcane Missiles

Crit: 1249 arcane damage Arcane Missiles

Lgs · 10/09/08, 12:58 AM

Abakus, EJ is not allowing players' class-change proposals.

Søndag · 10/09/08, 4:58 AM

Originally Posted by Gediablo

As far as I remember Flamethrowing doesn't affect FFB. I think a Mage_FrostFire build would make more sense (2 extra points in World in Flames rather than flamethrowing)

Moving the 2 points from FT to WiF changes around 50 dps, so it's a minor loss if you like to have range for scorching.

Lons · 10/09/08, 5:51 AM

delete post