WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 130

Roywyn · 10/14/08, 11:49 AM

I know about the "40% master, 2.5/3.5 Waterbolt" scaling hypothesis.

The problem is that these numbers don't work.
They work if you only look at the multiplied factors "master's SP => waterbolt damage"
They don't work when you use spell power group buffs.

In particular, the "140 ToW to master and pet => +155 WB damage" doesn't work with the "40% / 71.4%" scaling theory at all.

The "34.1% / 82.5%" scaling is the only thing that fits my test data.
Two equations (1558 SP test, 140 ToW test), 2 variables (master scaling, waterbolt scaling), unique solution.

Lhivera · 10/14/08, 12:31 PM

I wonder if it's possible that this is one of the coefficients they messed with? Back at 60, which was the last time I did any testing myself, the 40%/71.4% scaling worked perfectly for both inherited and direct spell damage gains. Granted, that was two years ago, it's possible they adjusted it at any time between then and now.

Anobix · 10/14/08, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Quimly

Here's what rawr spat out for me with my current gear on armory +surefooted to land on the hit cap once things hit live.

Quite interesting the subtle differences in peoples gear making the different specs switch around.

I did not even think about using surefooted, interesting idea, that will let me swap out my SCB with either my icon or dmc:c again (with one or the other already equipped).

[DRF]Solmyr · 10/14/08, 1:46 PM

I really believe Blizzard is sending mixed messages to their fanbase:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Devs Answer "Pure" DPS Question, Saturday Q/A

If a guild chooses to not bring hunters, mages, locks or rogues, they should do so knowing that their dps will go down.

That assumes all of the players are of equal skill and gear and the fight isn't something unusual that really benefits a certain class or spec over others.

On the other hand, we don't want to see raids getting the 8 (or whatever) classes they need for buffs, and then stacking the rest with pure dps classes.

We're closing the gap, not eliminating it.

-Ghostcrawler

/delete me if this is a useless post

Akston · 10/14/08, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by [DRF]Solmyr

I really believe Blizzard is sending mixed messages to their fanbase:

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Devs Answer "Pure" DPS Question, Saturday Q/A

/delete me if this is a useless post

So... Pure dps will be higher dps than hybrids to compensate for the extra stuff hybrids bring... But we shouldn't be stacking pure classes for extra damage... Because? I really don't understand what blizzard is thinking? As long as there is ANY advantage in min-maxing, top guilds will continue to min-max. If pure dps are doing slightly more dps than hybrids then good guilds are only going to bring enough hybrids to cover the needed buffs/debuffs and then stack pure dps.

Rhayn · 10/14/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by banaj

Was playing about a bit with Rawr for 3.0
Crit seems to have taken a huge jump up in my charts compared to before.
It actually recommends me using Sextant of Unstable Currents over Hex Shrunken Head.
It also recommends taking the Hyjal rep ring over Ancient Knowledge or Loop of Forged Power.
Dmg/crit gems seem to be about as good as dmg/haste for me.
Can anyone comment on these results? read some posts before saying crit still isn't that great but Rawr seems to suggest something else.

This is based on going 0/50/11 which gives the highest dps output according to Rawr.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I'm looking at Rawr as well and it's suggesting crit is much better than haste (also seems to suggest +10 int is the best DPS gem though =/ ).

licwid · 10/14/08, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by ravenndude

**update** As per Laekoth, added 10/51/0 ... a new winner!
**update** Changed 0/50/11 to moten Armor ... pulls ahead

Here are my new numbers for level 70 post 3.0.2 dps. This time I am leaving out TtW because of assumptions that it will not work on raid bosses:

Top Scorers
Mage_105100
Mage_005011
Mage_005308
Mage_115000
Mage_134800

All mages are using Molten armor. (Mage_005308 still has 1% downtime with mage, but loses DPS)
All Mages have Glyph of Mana Gem
Mage with Arcane Power has Glyph of Arcane Power
Mages with Imp Scorch have Glyph of Imp Scorch (Even though only one is scorching)

The Mages are using these Glyphs because they are the only once availible at 70, and that the sim uses.

Focus Magic "circle jerk" is as follows:
Mage_530800 -> Mage_144700 -> Mage_115000 -> Mage_530800

Stats for all of the mages are taken from my T5/T6 mage as if I re-gemmed for hit cap:
gear_stamina=409
gear_intellect=419
gear_spirit=204
gear_spell_power=1116
gear_spell_crit_rating=282
gear_spell_hit_rating=176
gear_haste_rating=69

Thanks to the creator of Simulationcraft for making this possible.

could you use a SW geared mage stats for this and post the results? That would be awesome.

Neos300 · 10/14/08, 2:39 PM

Has there been any theorycrafting for various Arcane-heavy fire builds that go 10 deep into fire for ignite? I was thinking of something like this for fireball spamming

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...52320102510320

the 2 points in Prismatic Cloak are basically there only until i see firsthand how much threat tanks are capable of and whether i'll need an instant or close to instant Invisibility. Those points easily go into Clearcasting and Arcane Barrage (just to have, you never know when you might need it) if threat is a non-factor now.

Also, since we'll likely have a frost mage, bosses will be snared most of the time with frostbolt, so torment the weak may be really good here.

Plus, 2-minute arcane power-presence of mind with the arcane power glyph just seems really good - makes arcane power and presence of mind come up every time trinket comes off cooldown, too.

Have there been any simulations with this?

One other question - do healing crits count as "critical hits" for purposes of Focus Magic? if so, I'm thinking of throwing it on a Holy Paladin that is assigned to flash of light spam if I'm the only mage with Focus Magic. Would that work well?

grayrest · 10/14/08, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by Akston

I really don't understand what blizzard is thinking? As long as there is ANY advantage in min-maxing, top guilds will continue to min-max.

They're not worried about min/max guilds. They acknowledge they exist and prevent any particular combo from being over the top but otherwise basically let you play how you want to play.

Vand1 · 10/14/08, 3:03 PM

One thing that really surprised (and amused) me is that the new Rawr lists the Dragonspine Trophy as one of the very best mage trinkets. While I know that spell and physical haste rating has been combined into a single stat, I'm pretty sure that spells are not included in the "melee and ranged attacks" that have a chance to proc it.

Sabo · 10/14/08, 3:04 PM

Seeing as it looks like World in Flames vs Burning Soul as deep fire in 3.0.

Wouldnt that knockback be a pretty heavy dps decrease? is World in flames worth it if i dont have blast wave / dragons breath / maybe living bomb?

arch · 10/14/08, 3:04 PM

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Frost fails for bosses, but who cares ?

Just as a hypothetical question, do you think if Frost's dps was identical to Fire, that there would be a thread much like this one saying "Fire fails for bosses because Frost does just as much dps, but also provides better control on trash fights?"

GC pointing out why Frost has to be slightly behind fire in terms of dps. Though he should probably have mentioned the increased survivability and better control over certain boss adds rather than just "trash fights".

Cabrian · 10/14/08, 3:04 PM

Well, I'm assuming that all our theorycrafting for the few weeks of 3.0.2 @ level 70 has now been bamboozled by the reversion of a number of talents as the patch goes live. Anyone have a consolidated list or will we just have to wait to see what our talent trees look like tomorrow?

Anobix · 10/14/08, 3:11 PM

Originally Posted by Cabrian

Well, I'm assuming that all our theorycrafting for the few weeks of 3.0.2 @ level 70 has now been bamboozled by the reversion of a number of talents as the patch goes live. Anyone have a consolidated list or will we just have to wait to see what our talent trees look like tomorrow?

Well the patch notes are pretty hectic, things ranging from 2-3 builds ago, back to early september (imp scorch still gives fire/frost/arcane debuff?!) We will just have to wait and see.

◊ manly · 10/14/08, 3:27 PM

Out of curiosity, does someone have a DST to test if it procs on spells ?

marloz · 10/14/08, 3:27 PM

I'm not up to speed regards to timezones, but aren't the US servers up now?

If so - are the level 70-rank of fireball and frostbolt available for training?

licwid · 10/14/08, 3:29 PM

Heres what I get using mostly BT/Hyjal Gear (for those entering into sunwell)

edit

on the PTR rank 14 spells were available so i'd assume they would come with the live patch

Daenrya · 10/14/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by marloz

I'm not up to speed regards to timezones, but aren't the US servers up now?

If so - are the level 70-rank of fireball and frostbolt available for training?

Nah, we've still got another 2 and a half hours, unless they come up early.

They were trainable on PTR, so I don't see why they wouldn't be for the patch

Docjowles · 10/14/08, 3:37 PM

Originally Posted by Sabo

Seeing as it looks like World in Flames vs Burning Soul as deep fire in 3.0.

Wouldnt that knockback be a pretty heavy dps decrease? is World in flames worth it if i dont have blast wave / dragons breath / maybe living bomb?

The reason for taking World in Flames even in a non-AoE build is the increase in Pyroblast crits. With the introduction of Hotstreak, you'll wind up casting Pyroblast fairly often, and the 6% increased crit is a decent DPS increase.

Sabo · 10/14/08, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Docjowles

The reason for taking World in Flames even in a non-AoE build is the increase in Pyroblast crits. With the introduction of Hotstreak, you'll wind up casting Pyroblast fairly often, and the 6% increased crit is a decent DPS increase.

Thats what i mean, 6% crit on pyro. Would that weigh up the knockback loss on dps. Given it differs from fight to fight, but im afraid that knockback could lower your dps by quite abit. Or shouldnt i worry?

Docjowles · 10/14/08, 3:45 PM

Edit: I am being dumb, he's talking about pushback. I thought he was saying something about the Blast Wave knockback.

Daenrya · 10/14/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sabo

Thats what i mean, 6% crit on pyro. Would that weigh up the knockback loss on dps. Given it differs from fight to fight, but im afraid that knockback could lower your dps by quite abit. Or shouldnt i worry?

Well considering that they changed the knockback mechanics, it probably won't be that bad. The most a non-channeled spell can be knocked back now, IIRC, is 1 second, and Burning Soul just reduces the duration of the pushback instead of giving it a chance to be eliminated

Edit: and by knockback, I mean pushback of course

Sabo · 10/14/08, 3:51 PM

yeah, mean pushback while casting firespells ofc.
But hmm, Daenrya, 1 sec pushback a couple of times during a fight (since there's not many fights you dont take damage) adds up to alot of "pushback seconds". 70% immune should be a rather big chunk of damage?

Daenrya · 10/14/08, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Sabo

yeah, mean pushback while casting firespells ofc.
But hmm, Daenrya, 1 sec pushback a couple of times during a fight (since there's not many fights you dont take damage) adds up to alot of "pushback seconds". 70% immune should be a rather big chunk of damage?

Depends on the fight. As I said, from what I understand, Burning soul won't eliminate pushback anymore, it'd be 70% reduction in pushback time... new mechanics are that you can only be pushed back twice, at 0.5s each, so burning soul would reduce that to 0.15s each, or 0.3s total possible vs 1.0s total possible. So you'll still take pushback with burning soul, just not as much.

And honestly, I've raided fire with Burning Soul for so long, I have no idea how bad pushback is without it, so I'm not used to seeing alot of pushback on fghts. I can't say one way or the other whether world in flames ends up being better than Burning Soul

Actovision · 10/14/08, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Sabo

yeah, mean pushback while casting firespells ofc.
But hmm, Daenrya, 1 sec pushback a couple of times during a fight (since there's not many fights you dont take damage) adds up to alot of "pushback seconds". 70% immune should be a rather big chunk of damage?

In a tree that has few points to spare on talents that don't directly increase damage, Burning Soul doesn't really seem necessary. I haven't done Eredar Twins-K'J, but I think it's safe to say that out of the remaining bosses in the game, pushback reduction is not a make or break thing. The threat reduction was nice, but is no longer needed. The net damage lost/gained from the ignite bug remains to be determined accurately.

Edit: Thanks Daenrya for pointing out my mistake.