Daenrya

Don't think Pyro crits count towards your next Hot Streak proc (at least, the tooltip doesn't list it as one of the spells that do)

 

Organigami

I also noticed Ice Floes has no effect in Frost dps, even though it allows increased IV uptime.
Just mentioning it since you only highlighted WE and Cold Snap.

Also, how is Rawr handling FoF procs? Frostbolt spam through it, or attempt to combo an instant BFfireball or Ice Lance at the end of the FoF charges?

 

Vand1

For almost any PvE fight, 2/2 Burning Soul will only reduce pushback by .35 seconds every few casts. There are very few PvE fights where you get pushback more than twice in four seconds (the maximum cast time of a fireball with heavy pushback and no haste). RoS Phase 2 and Hex Lord Malacrass are the only ones that come immediately to mind.

Whether that is enough to make it more valuable than an extra 6% pyro crit depends on the fight characteristics, and I doubt that either talent is universally better.

This is all assuming that we do not need the 10% threat reduction. If we do, then the whole argument is moot.

 

Samuel

Or they will design things so there is some advantage for hybrids. A priest that could do ok DPS and then suddenly shift to good healing for a healing intense phase is a lot more useful that pure dps is many situations.

Top guilds will always min-max but I think the goal is that normal to casual guilds can just raid with the people they have because there while a 5% difference slows down progression is doesn't stop it the way a 30% difference does.

 

Kavan

Ice Floes has effect on dps. Maybe for whatever fight length you're using it doesn't make a difference.

FoF procs are handled as Frostbolt through it. If there is demand for it I'll try to add a "shatter combo" version with option to disable it.

 

Phrozen

In all of the 70 raid specs i have seen, most of the higher end dps specs drop IV completely, are the 11 points that would have been spent in frost that much of a dps gain used somewhere else? I haven't done much theorycrafting for 3.0.2 and i guess now is the time since the patch is DLing lol.

 

Hinalover

yes it is. The whole premise of Fire now is based around Hot Streak and Crits. The more crits you do the more likely a Hot Streak will proc so that you can cast an instant Pyroblast. And since Pyroblast can do a crap-load of damage, it offsets the bonus you get from IV

 

Vand1

I just want to be 100% sure I understand how focus magic works. From what I've read here, two mages cannot cast it on each other and benefit from both the buff and the proc. Yet three mages can cast it in a circular fashion, and have all three benefit from both buff and proc. Is that correct?

 

Hinalover

I was under the impression that two mages CAN cast Focus Magic on each other (just not on themselves). Though I could be wrong. Really, you should be casting it on someone who crits a lot

 

Kyriani

No. Basically how it works is this... if you have the 30 min buff from another mage you cannot benefit from the proc. There is no way to get 6% crit from this ability for any one person.

if all mages have it then its worthless to cast it on your fellow mages. you're better off casting it on other non mages so they can get 3% crit and you can get the proc

This assuming each mage has a worthwhile target for the buff such as a moonkin of ele shaman

 

Hinalover

Personally I would put mine on our elemental Shaman, since his Chain Lightning can proc crit on any of his three targets

 

Rhayn

Both the proc and the effect cannot be active at the same time (you only get 3%, not 6%), so it's a waste to throw around in the "circle jerk" that was being used for testing. This was for testing purposes to provide the 3% you get from it procing, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Phrozen

so based on that logic
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?mage...00000000000000
would be the highest dps spec of 3.0.2? (thats based on the info posted earlier today)

 

Akston

Here is the gear list:


Stats including raid buffs:


Dps for each spec based on not having to maintain scorch with full raid buffs:


Dps if you have to maintain scorch:


Just realized that you can use the (formerly) melee hit food but it looks like it is still better to use the Rage offhand over the Brutallus offhand and use the spell damage food although you might be able to change something else up to make use of the hit food..

Edit: this is in response to people asking what the numbers would look like with top end gear.

 

khemael

Something I really can't understand with the new 2.0 Rawr.Mage model :

Even in Fire/Frostfire/Frost Spec, even with High gears, and even with a lot of Mana Regeneration mechanics according to buff configuration....
The model is sometimes showing that +int gems are betters than haste/crit/spell power O_O.
Then I check de Sequence, and the overall shape : it seems there is really NO mana issue in the fight.

Then why are these Int gems upping my dps in spec not having Mind Mastery etc according to Rawr 2.0 ?

 

Hinalover

Theoretically, yes. In practice, it can be quite difficult to keep all of your debuffs/buffs up. I've tested the Scorch/Fireball/HS/Pyro/LB rotation, and the sheer amount of time your trying to keep everything up can be daunting. I actually may just drop LB and put that point into Focus Magic if LB is a) at the same Mana Cost (cost a lot to keep up) b) less rotation to worry about.

 

Rhayn

It's looking the same for me too... and it looks like haste went to the crapper in comparison to crit? My nimble thought bracers are horrible compared to the guardian's cuffs or the cuffs of devastation!

 

Daenrya

If Holy Paladins are still crit whores, I was thinking they might be a good target to pop it on to. Assuming that heal crits will proc the effect, of course.

 

Akston

At least at 70 it is really looking like living bomb will just be more trouble than its worth, especially if you have to keep scorch up.

Possibly but without downranking it seems like all healing will be a lot less spammy so i doubt you would have as high uptime as if you put it on a dps. I've also heard that focus magic applies to and can proc off melee hits too so throwing it on a hunter or rogue would also likely be a great way to make sure you have high uptime on the proc.

 

Phrozen

Okay thanks, the whole living bomb scenario has been bothering me lately since its apparently gone from good, to completely worthless, to okay now. Focus magic seems like the ideal talent to replace it with but now comes the question of Crit vs Haste. From what the people below/above me have said, Rawr v2 is saying that crit is now > haste. Anybody have any insight on that?

 

Roywyn

Burnign Soul vs. World in Flames

World in Flames is about 1% DPS for 3 points, 0.33% DPS per point.

Burning Soul is up to 0.35s less pushback per point. So, it's better if you get pushed back at least once ever 100 seconds.
Actually it's a little bit less since you may get pushed back when you have cast less than 0.35 seconds, so you only suffer what you have cast already.


Dragonspine Trophy

Would be better to ask an enhancement shaman on this one.
If it's any indication, [Death Knight's Anguish] procs from wanding, but not from spell casts.
[Shard of Contempt] doesn't proc either.

Since [Dragonspine Trophy] has its proc rate determined by PPM, there is nothing to determine a spell proc rate from.
It also specifies "melee and ranged attacks" like many other trinkets of that kind which don't proc on spells.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

inphared

So regardless of keeping scorch up or not 11/50/0 pulls ahead of 0/50/11. I guess the question now is who would be the best target to place this on? Sure is gonna be weird not using IV anymore.

 

mesullivan

Some are suggesting skipping burning soul because of the new pushback mechanics limiting pushback to 1 second per cast.

A fairly simple calculation reveals that this is foolish for any fight with significant raid damage.

Few fights will hit us enough to cause maximum push back, but in those few, we will see 1 second of pushback every cast of fireball, versus .3 seconds of pushback every fireball. The time to cast a fireball against max pushback is 4 seconds, versus 3.3 seconds with burning soul, a 21% dps increase for BS. Haste makes burning soul more prominent in this worst cast scenario. A typical T5/6 raider will have enough haste to cast in 2.8 seconds or less (and counting icy veins or bloodlust, avg cast time is even lower) for a 3.8 to 3.1 ratio or a 22.5% increase in dps.

Of course max pushback situations are rare. A more typical case might see us getting roughly 1 hit every 2 fireballs (that translates into one actual bit of pushback per 6 fireballs with current mechanics with burning soul). Now we cast 2 fballs every 6.5 seconds without burning soul and every 6.15 seconds with it for a dps increase of 5.6%.[*]

That's a very strong increase for 2 talent points as an average case. many of the dps talents we consider mandatory do not add as much. To break even with blizzard's stated 1 talent point ~= 1% dps guideline, the average fight would involve pushback only once every 16 seconds. IME, it's a rare fight where raid damage is that sparse.

Conclusion: Unless raid damage is much less common in WotLK than in TBC, burning soul is still absolutely mandatory for fire builds.

Yes there are fights with minimal pushback where the benefit will be minor or non-existent, but on those fights where your raid is under the most pressure, burning soul could be among the best dps talents in the tree.

[*]Here we ignore haste because if pushback is not maximized, then faster casts will translate to fewer pushbacks per cast so the ratio should be the same for hasted vs. non-hasted casts.

 

mkultra55

I still don't see the reasoning behind excluding Frostbolt (and Frostfire for that matter) from Spell Impact. Just doing ghetto Theorycrafting and adding a straight 6% to the Frost Build's DPS still leaves it trailing Deep Fire but at least it puts it more in line with where it would be expected to be based on all the Blue posts about DPS normalization.

I buy the idea that Repleneshment classes have to take some kind of DPS hit but the reports I've been reading are putting Frost laughably low. To the point where it would gimp the Raid so much to bring a Frost Mage the Replenishment effect would be worthless.

 

Docjowles

It's dependent on raid composition, but a paladin with Imp Concentration Aura would be giving you 50% pushback protection, which might make losing Burning Soul a little more palatable. At least judging from the tooltip, it's now raidwide.

Concentration Aura - Wowhead Search