Xentropy

Some of those base stats vary from race to race, if I'm not mistaken. Not enough to make a significant difference in the end, though. Can you confirm the ratings per % as listed in this thread over here?

 

Roywyn

And doesn't include the new Frostbolt glyph. And 4T6 that looks like it'll take while to get outdated with the amount "50 sta/int/spi/dmg" gear popping around.

It also doesn't take into account that it is much harder to get FFB*2/DF into a FoF proc than FrB*2/DF.
Or that you may get react to get FrB/FFB/DF into a FoF proc while spamming FB.

It also didn't consider 2/3 Permafrost.
An 11 second DoT that ticks a 4th time after 12 seconds, what the hell? When does the 4th tick occur exactly, how many FrB do we have to squeeze in?
How much is its DPS per point compared to other alternative of this horribly overbloated tree?

With Scorch sitting at 18 Fire, you can't get everything you want with 53 frost for Frostbolt, but you can for Frostfire Bolt.

With Frostfire Bolt, you also get less Brain freeze procs. But if you can skip the Frostbolt glyph, you may get the Fireball glyph to give those procs more power.


The point was just to give an estimate how much crit is needed for FFB to outscale FrB in a spammed setting.
It could be anything from 0% to 100%, but at least you have a rough idea about it now.

The difference between FFB with and without the DoT is pretty comparable to FrB with and without the glyph.
And we can't really pin down things yet when we don't know how how half the talents are supposed to work.


A non-binary spell that hits will always do damage. There are no "100% partial resists".
Proof are thousands of Imp tanks on Illhoof who all get 4% of the incoming casts resists, regardless of fire resistance.
They get hit for nearly nothing with capped FR, but still get hit 96% of the time. Which is why Magic Absorption tanking doesn't work there.

The official chart is pretty much rubbish, yes.


I don't have any logs or counted anything.
For Frostbolt, it was level-1 kiting a troll twice through the half of Zul'Drak until I got a miss. ~50/80 casts?
For Frostfire Bolt, it was kiting and sheep-healing a troll twice through half the zone and then butchering another good dozen trolls. ~100+ casts?
For Scorch, it took me just a few kills, ~30 casts?


Um, what? Can you give an example setting/calculation?
Even FFB need 5k or 6k spell power for crit to beat damage.
And haste should always beat crit unless you run into severe mana issue or overstack to absurd levels, beyond the passive GCD cap or something.



Can you open your character screen and hover over "intellect"?
It should say "179 intellect; increases mana by X".
X should be "(intellect-10)*15 if intellect >= 19" or so, all stats behave oddly below 20 points.

Your "Base Mana" is then 5673-X.

According to Wowwiki, Intellect gives you 1 mana/int from 1 to 20 intellect, and 15 mana/int above 20 intellect.
That means 179 intellect would grant 159*15+20 = 2405 mana, and base mana would be 5673-2405 = 3268 at level 80.

At level 70, mages had 2241 base mana, so our mana cost on spells will increase by 46% from 70 to 80 once the 3.0 changes go live.

If anyone confirms that or counters it, I'll update the first post.


Base mana for mages seems to be 3268 at level 80. Regardless of race, buffs, gear, anything.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Xentropy

Err, so WoW -> Info -> Basics -> Resistances is wrong? I thought the whole reason for changing the combat log to explicitly list "miss" vice "resist" was to see exactly when a miss was hit-related and when it was resist-related, because full resists are possible. I definitely remember full resisting plenty of Firemaw's flame buffets, for instance, and I wouldn't full resist them without FR gear so it wasn't a default miss chance. Did this change in TBC and that page was never updated? (TBC has so few resist fights I haven't had reason to notice a difference.)

(Edited back in since it was already replied to anyway...but yeah I noticed it was binary after posting, sorry.)

 

Roywyn

That offical chart is pretty much rubbish, yeah.

You wear FR for Firemaw because it's binary. With capped FR, you resist 75% of the casts and don't get the debuff, but you take full damage everytime you're hit.
Same with Leotheras tanking. You wear FR to resists the binary bolts he casts so the debuff doesn't stack up so fast.
But if he hits you 3 times in a row, you will always get hit for the full damage.

Resist gear affects damage of nonbinary spells and resist chance on binary spells, and only these.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

• QControl

If you truly believe this is the fault of the testers, I have to say you're deeply mistaken. It's game mechanics and, personally, I'm not particularly surprised by the rogue number.

 

Roywyn

I know that the rogue class has barely been touched - no new poisons, new abilities doing the same damage as old ones, none of the new talents implemented/working.

But in their example, to 8k Frosfire Bolt, you'd need good gear.
As in, even with full group and raid buffs, double dipping only everything and really really good gear.
Like 3k spell damage good with assorted crit/haste/etc.
Roughly double of what Sunwell gear gives you.

If rogues were in equal gear/buff footing there, we'd be talking about roughly 6k/7k attack power and 200 DPS one-handers, not some random junk gear.


I honestly don't really get how people only reach 3k DPS with a rogue on equal gear/buff footing and gear that's twice as good as your current gear.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

f1reburn

I'm not sure about this rogue tester statement. Until Blizzard reveals exactly which gear, buffs, talents and mobs they used to test the rogue doing 3000dps, I'm going to give Blizzard testers the benefit of the doubt, especially as professional playtesters in the videogame industry are usually exceptionally good gamers who know their game through and through.

 

• QControl

I should point out that I am going under a couple assumptions here. First is that their rogues are using a mutilate spec(hopefully 41/26/5 and not 51/20) given their big push to want to make daggers usable. This also assumes that the nine broken talents we have on the beta servers are working internally. Second is that they're using Naxx 10/25 gear because I can guarantee you that they don't have Ulduar itemized.

Edit: Now that I think about it, if our new talents are working internally, they're probably going to want to be testing them, which means they're probably using 51/20, which means you'd have every right to question that dps number because no one who cares about PvE dps is going to be using that spec.

 

Zaldinar

I'd be interested to see a long combat log parse showing that, since I've observed a greatly increased full resist rate on citizens in Strat as well as obvious penetrative based resists. Now that the two are individually flagged in the combat log its easy to show the difference. Warlock with Leo tanking gear would be an easy test bed for this on live, not that lives resist mechanics necessarily apply to LK, but the same could be done on Beta, or just wait until it comes live and do it then.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...icId=109841969
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

JonIrenicus

Fixing the Frostbolt Glyph:


+5% damage
-30% snare speed
+5% chance to proc fingers of frost.

I do NOT want to hear anything about being unfair compared to the fireball glyph. Due to partial resists on frostbolt the 5% buff later in the tree is negated, and frostbolt lost 3% spell hit. And to date, Frost has no living bomb like ability increasing dps, even if deep freeze can be used to damage bosses in raids, it is the least potent in this regard of ALL the 51 point fire talents.

 

Prom

The thread on raid stacking is very interesting, a good read, I suggest everyone to have a look at it.
As previously mentioned, raids with 5 warlocks/shamans should be a thing of the past. Raids will be much more versatile both in terms of classes and specs.

Once again you have to wonder though what kind of testing they do when a said mage does 8k dps and a lvl 80 rogue does a mere 3k dps. Ofc it all depends on debuffs on the target, buffs on the player and actual time. I think he made up those numbers as a form of reassurance, however the truth may not have been far from those numbers considering the potential of FFB douple dipping in high end gear with raid buffs/debuffs.

I'm also very eager to see what other sort of talents/spells they're working on; if only we could get a glimpse.

On the matter of glyphs; I was positively surprised. The fact that some of the glyphs are distinctly aimed at PvE while others at PvP is VERY VERY important. It's a solution to something that I've been whining for a long time; PvP balancing messing with PvE. I'm assuming of course that there will be quite a few more glyphs and tweaks to the current ones.

 

Pintofbrew

Do take into account, gentlemen, also the possibility that the devs were refering to a specific non-melee friendly fight. There is a chance they meant "in this one specific fight, with every buff known to man double-dipping and possibly even double-dipping from set boni, with an elemental spec, a mage pulled 8k during CD stacking, while our best rogue on that specific try managed 3 due to motion/missaligned finishers/bad grouping".

Not playing devil's avocado here, but note where they said the 8k issue was referring to talents that weren't implemented yet. Could be they noticed it on the next round of builds, or even the next after that.

Edit: I wonder if the scorch glyph will mean Darkmoon Card: Crusade will now stack even more times per cast...

"Do not offend the chair leg of truth. It is wise and terrible. Continue."
-Spider Jerusalem

 

arch

Now fire mages just needs "Glyph of Flamestrike - Increases the instant damage of flamestrike by x% and improves its graphics but removes the DoT portion" and we'll be all set.

 

Lhivera

OK, so as I understand it, Arcane Blast mana costs are working like so with Arcane Power. Instead of what would typically be expected for a 1-stack-cast with Arcane Power:

Base Cost * 1.75 * 1.3

...it's doing this:

(Base Cost * 1.3) + (Base Cost * 0.75)

Correct?

Now, what I'm wondering (assuming I've got that right) is whether it's doing the same thing with Arcane Focus. Instead of the expected:

Base Cost * 1.75 * 0.97

...is it instead doing:

(Base Cost * 0.97) + (Base Cost * 0.75)

Anyone had a chance to test that?

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Roywyn

I think has been noted a couple of times.

Almost all mana cost modifiers are multiplicative, as you pointed out.
Exception being Arcane Power and Arcane Blast debuff which are added into one multiplier. On live, 2T5 is added into that multiplier as well - would be nice if anyone could test that.

So it would likely end up as AB_Base*(1+0.3*AP+0.75*ABStacks+0.2*T5)*(1-0.03*ArcFocus)*(1-0.1*FrostChan)*OtherMultipliers.

It's confirmed for Arcane Focus, AB stacks and Arcane Power at least.
That's also why Frost Channeling is much better than Master of Elements for Blast spam, because it affects the total mana cost and not just the base mana cost.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Lhivera

OK, I missed somewhere that it had already been tested with Focus.

Another thing that would be very helpful is the (current, subject to change) final damage ranges of spells at level 80, since we know they go up a few points per level.

And finally, the cost of a level 80 Water Elemental's Waterbolt and Freeze spells.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

deadlyice

It's been hard to test anything Arcane Blast related because of the prohibitive mana costs, I'll see if I can get some Frost testing done today and throw them up Lhivera.

Also of note, there is a mana increase or mana regen decrease (stealth or otherwise) that seems to have gone through on 8820. I'm running out of mana nearly 2x as quickly (full frost spec'ed) and many other mages are complaining about similar regen issues this morning.

Melee damage seems way up (DKs, Pallies and Rogues were commenting this morning in Borean Tundra about larger crits than yesterday). Mage damage seems the same, I don't think anything mage related (other than glyphs/FFB double-dip adjustment and possibly mana regen tweaking) went into 8820.

 

Lurker

Edit: This is at level 74
Arcane Focus, no T5:
0/3, 1060, 1855 (no stack, 1 stack)
1/3, 1049, 1835
2/3, 1039, 1818
3/3, 1028, 1799

Arcane Focus, w/ T5
0/3, 1272, 2067
1/3, 1258, 2045
2/3, 1246, 2026
3/3, 1233, 2004

 

Roywyn

Thanks a lot! So it's unchanged, 2T5 is additive with the debuff as well, so the formula above should be correct.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Copernicus

More from the raid stacking thread-

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Raid stacking in Wrath of the Lich King

 

Lhivera

I was about to object that testing shouldn't be necessary -- the tooltip values should be fine. But then I remembered that the tooltips are apparently bugged and not showing the damage range increases that happen during leveling. So please, don't worry about it, nothing's urgent about knowing this stuff; we can wait for them to fix it so the information can be obtained the easy way.


Interesting rounding on 3/3 with T5 and 1 stack, ain't it? 2067 * .97 = 2004.99, and they round it down to 2004. Maybe they're not rounding the % of base mana until all multipliers have been applied.


ETA: (Strike that, it was somebody's wish list.)

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Lhivera

Error, please delete.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Ghist

Another batch of level 80 information. All values are with no gear and no talents, except for those spells that can only be obtained with talents active. In that case I made sure I did not pick any damage boosting talents that would have affected the values.

Intellect
Increases Mana by 2405
Increases Spell Critical Hit by 1.98%

Elemental
Mana: 3171
Health: 2934

Freeze: 817 mana
waterbolt: 163 mana


Damage ranges
Blizzard: 3408 over 8 seconds
Cone of Cold: 709 to 776
Deep Freeze: 1319 to 1531
Frost Nova: 368 to 419
Frostbolt: 803 to 866
Ice Lance: 223 to 258
Fire Blast: 925 to 1095
Fireball: 898 to 1143 and 116 over 8 sec.
Flamestrike: 876 to 1071 and 780 over 8 sec.
Frostfire Bolt: 722 to 838 and 90 over 9 sec.
Scorch: 382 to 451
Arcane Blast: 912 to 1058
Arcane Explosion: 538 to 582
Arcane Missiles: 361 to 362 per missile
Arcane Barrage: 936 to 1144

 

Xentropy

So base mana at 80 should be 3268.

With that mana pool and waterbolt costing 163 it'll last 47.5 seconds chain-casting before going oom without sources of mana regeneration. Its own mana regen fully improved (assuming that talent doesn't change) should allow it to cast the full 60 seconds without issues.

 

Roywyn

Thanks a lot for your info!

Do you happen to have the tooltip damage for Waterbolt as well?
Also, is the low end damage of Frostbolt 830 or 803? 830 seems very high considering it's listed as 799 at level 79.

On another note - all the non-80 spells have a tooltip damage higher than the base damage at the level when they become available.
So their damage tooltips are very likely correct, and we shouldn't have to worry about them for now unless we get odd results.

Thanks again for your great help, it is very appreciated.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.