WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 161

Zaldinar · 11/05/08, 3:32 PM

Roywyn et all doing modeling, have you been assuming that the Living Bomb DoT benefits from Firepower? Since it doesn't appear to...

LB DoT tooltip - 1380 over 12

Naked Zero Spec
345 345 345 345 = 1380

1508 +damage
647 647 646 646 = 2586
1380 + 1508 * 0.8 = 2586.4

3/3 PwF
666 666 666 666 = 2664
2568.4 * 1.03 = 2663.992

3/3 PwF 5/5 FP
666 666 666 666 = 2664
2663.992 * 1.1 = 2930.3912

Research posted here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Proven Beta Stuff

Side note, all other DoTs behaved as expected. Fireball and FFB gain nothing from +damage, everyone other than LB gets PwF, Firepower, and Arcane Instability, and FFB gets Piercing Ice.

Roywyn · 11/05/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Roywyn et all doing modeling, have you been assuming that the Living Bomb DoT benefits from Firepower? Since it doesn't appear to...

Research posted here: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Proven Beta Stuff

Side note, all other DoTs behaved as expected. Fireball and FFB gain nothing from +damage, everyone other than LB gets PwF, Firepower, and Arcane Instability, and FFB gets Piercing Ice.

I didn't know that, thanks for the heads-up!

On another note, I used the following macro to get a pet-pane for the Water Elemental:

/run if not oldHasPetUI then oldHasPetUI = HasPetUI; HasPetUI = function() return true, false; end end PetTab_Update() ToggleCharacter("PetPaperDollFrame")

Stats at level 80:
Stamina - 118 + 30% master's stamina
Intellect - 369 + 30% master's intellect
Armour - 7822 + 35% master's armour

Of course, it also gets all other raid buffs, procs, auras. Well, not long-time buffs unless buffed after summoned.
Quite surprising that the little bugger has quite some armour. It's probably just that I'm not used to have heavy armour.

Also, the pet info tab that comes with this tab is obviously not meant for use.
It shows the Water Elemental with a lot of attack power (it would be really powerful if it could melee!) and no spell power.

Also, has there been any conclusion to draw from ZIT yet?

Zaldinar · 11/05/08, 6:06 PM

For Zit conclusions...I've run the data I was able to collect from it myself (since nobody else has uploaded anything, pfft) and can't find anything conclusive. The window that it usually happens in is reasonably tight (usually around 200 msec or so), but every so often a wonky one comes out of left field that is way outside expected. I tried to build a scenario addon to watch for when I expected it to happen, and it only happened within the expected window around 40% of the time on average.

I'm willing to conclude that it is *definitely* latency based in extreme ways. But I don't think that we'll be able to accurately model or actively abuse it past creating the conditions that tend to result in a more frequent gained bug vs lost bug.

Best rotation to avoid munching:

FB until HS Proc, Scorch->Pyro on proc, maintain scorch if you don't get a proc once in 30 seconds.

Avoids most every munched scenario possible, is kind of fun, and actually tends to land on the gained bug scenario.

Worst rotation:

FB until HS Proc, FB->Pyro on proc, maintain scorch

Hits the munch scenario quite frequently, hits the gained bug scenario sometimes, but not excessively frequently.

Edit: Also, my list of stupid mechanics stands at two right now:

1) Spell Impact isn't a true multiplicative, PwF + FP + SI = (1.1 + 0.06) * 1.03, and that's just plain silly
2) Living Bomb DoT doesn't gain from Firepower.

Incase the announcement about Spell Impact didn't make it public enough.

Roywyn · 11/05/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

1) Best rotation to avoid munching:
FB until HS Proc, Scorch->Pyro on proc, maintain scorch if you don't get a proc once in 30 seconds.
Avoids most every munched scenario possible, is kind of fun, and actually tends to land on the gained bug scenario.

Worst rotation:
FB until HS Proc, FB->Pyro on proc, maintain scorch
Hits the munch scenario quite frequently, hits the gained bug scenario sometimes, but not excessively frequently.

2) Edit: Also, my list of stupid mechanics stands at two right now:
Spell Impact isn't a true multiplicative, PwF + FP + SI = (1.1 + 0.06) * 1.03, and that's just plain silly
Living Bomb DoT doesn't gain from Firepower.

1) Scenario: FB crit - FB crit - (HS 1 proc) FB crit - SC crit (the one you cast reactively now) - (HS 2 proc) Pyro 1 - Pyro 2

The question is whether you can mash your Pyroblast so that Pyro 1 is cast before HS 2 procs or not.
If you can't, your HS 1 proc would be overwritten by HS 2 and lost.
It works for Fireballs if you near-miss a proc due to travel time. Haven't seen testing with Scorch.

If you can do that reliably, then we need to stick that info, our gear, the negative/positive Ignite bug chance and the remaining Scorch time into some sheet to find out when Scorch is worth it.
My fear is that it won't always be, only if your time half-ran out or so.

2) Imp. Immolate and Emberstorm are additive as well.
Several talents of other classes are additive as well, mostly when they affect only certain spells.

Not saying that it's good or bad, consistent or not, just that we're not a single case.
It wouldn't hurt to make a general clean-up for inconsistencies though.

I wanted to test Piercing Ice + 4T6 for Frostbolt and Piercing Ice + Fire Power for Frostfire Bolt on beta, but the servers are down again, possibly for good now.

Added that info to the OP.

Yell! if you want anything added to the OP, doing a cleanup Soon(tm).

P.S.: We're pretty close to 9.000 posts of Mage WotLK TC now in our two threads. Wow. And ouch.

Organigami · 11/05/08, 7:25 PM

Originally Posted by Organigami

Don't think this has been mentioned before, but if a frostbolt procs a FoF refresh and is also consuming the 2nd charge of a FoF, then the FoF refresh will be consumed immediately.

This problem does not occur if Frostbolt1 refreshes FoF, presumably because it will not call for the expiration of the original FoF (consumes 1st charge), only a FoF refresh from Frostbolt2 causes this.
Frost's very own version of ignite munching?

This is still happening in the current Live build.

If this bug isn't fixed then choosing whether to use a FoF-proccing spell for the 2nd charge (and 3rd ghost charge?) to increase FoF uptime is a non factor, as the potential proc will vanish right away.

About the usage of the 2nd FoF charge, Roywyn showed some numbers earlier (Mage Spec DPS comparison - has some outdated info) with Frostfire bolt for the 2nd charge in a Deep Frost/Ignite spec.

That idea seems to have been abandoned however and recent posts only mention frostbolt for both charges.
Is this simply because a Deep Frost/Focus Magic has shown better performance? Sorry if I missed some obvious post about this topic.

Enthorn · 11/05/08, 7:46 PM

I made a bug report thread here concerning the Living Bomb detonation not happening. As several have already mentioned, it doesn't occur if you are unable to cast spells (IE, you are dead, silenced, stunned, immune via ice block or cyclone, or if you are polymorphed, seduced, and so forth).

It also likes to just plain dissipate from your target after the 4 ticks, and thus not explode, if too much range (it's about 100-150 yards) gets between you and your target). I do know that whatever the distance is, you can easily throw it on a mounted player and have them ride off fast enough so that the explosion will never occur. It could entirely be LoS as well though.

Roywyn · 11/05/08, 8:07 PM

Living Bomb

Living Bomb - Spell - World of Warcraft
States "100 yards (Vision)" as range.

Could you do a duel test to check whether the explosion can be LoS'ed?
I.e. cast Living Bomb and the hide around a corner/in a house?

Also - cast Living Bomb and Invisibility. Will the explosion still occur if you can't see the target (because *you* are invisible)?

Fingers + FFB

FFB in a frost spec is total junk without Ignite.
With Ignite, it used to be just barely worth casting on the 2nd FoF charge.

Ignite was a 2-3% total gain for Frost-heavy specs, and locked you out of 10+ Arcane options.
Focus Magic beats that, and especially Torment the Weak improves the spec's potential.

Torment is dumb though. But so is the fact that FFB is the only competitive mage spec without a Slow Slave.
All other mage specs are below shadow priests and far below warlocks.

If Torment gets changed/scrapped, you could go for something like a 11/10/52-2 build (no Deep Freeze).
You would cast FFB on your second charge, have the highest frost DPS build, but have to scrap all the fun frost talents.
The only thing you'd beat on meters would be Elemental Shaman though.

Xentropy · 11/05/08, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Organigami

This is still happening in the current Live build.

If this bug isn't fixed then choosing whether to use a FoF-proccing spell for the 2nd charge (and 3rd ghost charge?) to increase FoF uptime is a non factor, as the potential proc will vanish right away.

It's still a factor on the ghost charge, since it cuts a GCD into the start of your casts that could proc and NOT vanish. So it's still not worth bothering with that ice lance to beat latency at 80.

Originally Posted by Roywyn

If Torment gets changed/scrapped, you could go for something like a 11/10/52-2 build (no Deep Freeze).
You would cast FFB on your second charge, have the highest frost DPS build, but have to scrap all the fun frost talents.
The only thing you'd beat on meters would be Elemental Shaman though.

Lhivera mentioned a build like that upthread--the problem is to get 21 out-of-frost points, you MUST drop either brain freeze or improved water elemental (or CttB, but that's an even larger dps improvement than those two), and that choice is a no-brainer since you get more beneift out of the improved WE uptime in any fight where it survives for the duration. Dropping brain freeze eliminates much of the benefit of ignite, so there's not much point in a focus magic + ignite frost build whether or not Torment the Weak is removed.

aikiwoce · 11/05/08, 11:55 PM

Ok, so here's my thoughts on why Blizzard(Improved) doesn't proc Brain Freeze/Fingers of Frost, Torment the Weak should/shouldn't work on raid bosses, Molten Fury causes so many bugs, and why shatter combos do/don't work on second charge of Fingers of Frost.

The root of all these problems seems to be the use of conditionals controlled via the client. We'll start with the case of Blizzard(Improved). Its problem stems from the fact that it doesn't apply the chill effect directly. I'm going to assume this is basically what happens w/100ms latency, no processing time on the server/client:

0:00:000 You cast Blizzard, Client sends command to server
0:00:100 Server gets the start Blizzard command, sends info on who got hit to client
0:00:100 Blizzard hits the affected targets
0:00:200 Client receives info, sees targets afflicted by Blizzard, tells the server that these targets should be chilled
0:00:300 Server receives command to chill targets, applies it to them

This is why mobs/players seem to run through Blizzard, after being hit, without getting slowed. Unfortunately, this also causes proc-based talents to not function with Blizzard's chill effect. Frostbite seems to be a special exception that has had a band-aid applied to account for this functionality. Next up on the list is Torment the Weak. I've thought about this for a while, and I'm making the following assumptions (I'll change them when reliable information is obtained):

Torment the Weak should work on any mob that can be snared in some way. I.E. cast time, melee attack speed, movement speed.
Torment the Weak and Molten Fury are not intended to stack.

Ok, so down to the basics again. I'm going to assume quite a bit here on Blizzard's intentions for Ttw/MF, so consider that when responding. The intent, as I see it, of Torment the Weak was to provide Arcane with a talent similar to Molten Fury, but that did not stack with it. The problem, of course, comes in when MF's conditional, <%35 health, prevents TtW's bonus from applying to the target. So, if they fix TtW/MF, then any debuff that snares any mob, in some way, should trigger the bonus from TtW. All this brings up a good question: Why didn't they fix TtW/MF when they fixed MF/IL(ranks 2-3)? As I see it, it's the same issue, one conditional preventing the other from being applied.

Finally, why do shatter combos work for some on the second charge of FoF, and not for others? The answer is complicated. The FoF buff is supposed to be consumed on spell cast, but the client doesn't remove the buff until it actually casts the spell. A mage spamming his IL/BF-Fb button though can catch a pre-cast, before the client removes the FoF buff. This is why players with higher latency can more reliably shatter-combo the second charge of FoF, their pre-cast window is bigger.

Zaldinar · 11/06/08, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

The root of all these problems seems to be the use of conditionals controlled via the client. We'll start with the case of Blizzard(Improved). Its problem stems from the fact that it doesn't apply the chill effect directly. I'm going to assume this is basically what happens w/100ms latency, no processing time on the server/client:

0:00:000 You cast Blizzard, Client sends command to server
0:00:100 Server gets the start Blizzard command, sends info on who got hit to client
0:00:100 Blizzard hits the affected targets
0:00:200 Client receives info, sees targets afflicted by Blizzard, tells the server that these targets should be chilled
0:00:300 Server receives command to chill targets, applies it to them

Do you have any observed timelines to confirm this? Its easy to see when the auras are applied just by looking at the combat log:

11/3 21:46:07.954 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000000FB609,"Zaldinar",0x511,0xF130001358001648,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42842,"Frostbolt",0x10,DEBUFF
11/3 21:46:07.955 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000000FB609,"Zaldinar",0x511,0xF130001358001648,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42842,"Frostbolt",0x10,2200,2199,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

The aura is applied at effectively the same moment as the damage happens, which doesn't really speak one way or the other, it could be locally applied, or server side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the effect you're describing is where a target is running through Blizzard, gets a snare effect, and seems to take a step unsnared before the snare comes into effect? I'd say thats more likely explained by the server sending location and direction pulses from the target ("The Mob is at X,Y moving in Z direction") which until updated are continually applied (as evident by lagging out causing someone to run into a wall, then reappear where they started when the lag stops), and where that pulse hasn't caught up with the snare effect yet. We know that the server and client both maintain knowledge of the locations of all the actors in the game, and that sometimes they disagree, but in the end the server is correct (can't loot the corpse that died next to you because it was really 10 yards to the left).

Finally, why do shatter combos work for some on the second charge of FoF, and not for others? The answer is complicated. The FoF buff is supposed to be consumed on spell cast, but the client doesn't remove the buff until it actually casts the spell. A mage spamming his IL/BF-Fb button though can catch a pre-cast, before the client removes the FoF buff. This is why players with higher latency can more reliably shatter-combo the second charge of FoF, their pre-cast window is bigger.

I thought that the anecdotal evidence was that higher latency was harder? That was the logic I was following that indicated that the higher your latency the easier it was, but I keep hearing that high ping individuals weren't having good luck with it.

aikiwoce · 11/06/08, 1:53 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Do you have any observed timelines to confirm this? Its easy to see when the auras are applied just by looking at the combat log:

The Blizzard "Chill" doesn't generate a combatlog entry. This is the Blizzard Debuff Rank 6 applies. These are the Imp Blizz chill debuffs - Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft, Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft, Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft

11/6 00:43:25.081  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,BUFF
11/6 00:43:25.081  SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,27085,"Blizzard",0x10
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1030,1029,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:26.363  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.206  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.206  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.206  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.206  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.206  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.972  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:27.972  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:27.972  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:27.988  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:27.988  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:27.988  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,2
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:28.331  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.144  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,44544,"Fingers of Frost",0x10,BUFF
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12494,"Frostbite",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED_DOSE,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF,3
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12494,"Frostbite",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358004599,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1F,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B1D,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358003B18,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,493,492,16,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:29.159  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1030,1029,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

The aura is applied at effectively the same moment as the damage happens, which doesn't really speak one way or the other, it could be locally applied, or server side.

Frostbolt, and all other spells with chill effects, do it server-side, because the spell actually applies the Mod Speed Slow Aura.

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Correct me if I'm wrong, the effect you're describing is where a target is running through Blizzard, gets a snare effect, and seems to take a step unsnared before the snare comes into effect? I'd say thats more likely explained by the server sending location and direction pulses from the target ("The Mob is at X,Y moving in Z direction") which until updated are continually applied (as evident by lagging out causing someone to run into a wall, then reappear where they started when the lag stops), and where that pulse hasn't caught up with the snare effect yet. We know that the server and client both maintain knowledge of the locations of all the actors in the game, and that sometimes they disagree, but in the end the server is correct (can't loot the corpse that died next to you because it was really 10 yards to the left).

Actually, you can test this by blizzarding a mob that's not in combat. It'll run at you for a fraction of a second before being slowed. So the slow is being applied independent of the spell hit. Whereas Frostbolt is applied on spell hit. My explanation may not be the only reason for this happening.

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

I thought that the anecdotal evidence was that higher latency was harder? That was the logic I was following that indicated that the higher your latency the easier it was, but I keep hearing that high ping individuals weren't having good luck with it.

You might be right, I have very low latency, and was going with my gut over actual tests. I was wrong here.

Edit: Let me know if I missed anything on my latest bug-post.

Copernicus · 11/06/08, 2:11 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Yell! if you want anything added to the OP, doing a cleanup Soon(tm).

Profession selections for a mage.

Specifically the "value" of Lightweave Embroidery and the Engineering haste gloves enchant. It looks like mages might be one of the few classes to get away with taking something besides Blacksmithing, so not much detail is needed.

Xentropy · 11/06/08, 2:36 AM

The short answer is there is no value to the Lightweave Embroidery or Engineering haste enchants. Mages get no stat-based raid benefits out of tailoring or engineering (other than eng goggles which are outclassed already in Naxx10, and BoP's that are expected to be added to tailoring) at this time, at all. Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting get on the order of 46-49 spellpower (though jewelcrafting's bonus being that large is dependant on having items with blue sockets and good socket bonuses for maximum effect out of prismatic cuts). The rest of the production professions receive in the range of 36-38 spellpower. There is a CLEAR negative stratification of tailoring/engineering and a CLEAR positive stratification of jewelcrafting/blacksmithing, with the rest fairly balanced.

As for the gathering professions, herbalism is arguably the best with the ability to collect consumable seeds which require herbalism and give an average of 33.33 spellpower (200SP for 10 seconds with a one minute cooldown and no limit per-combat; they only share a cooldown with other profession items such as grenades and drums, not potions or mana gems), though pays the price in having to spend your own time farming to make sure you have enough fire seeds since there are unlikely to be many of these on the AH. Second is skinning, which gives a constant, passive 25 crit rating. And last is mining, which gives 500 health. (Survivability isn't entirely useless, but not generally considered as meaningful as damage stats to mages.)

The full list of profession benefits is elsewhere here on EJ: The WotLK profession thread

Zaldinar · 11/06/08, 3:58 AM

Originally Posted by aikiwoce

The Blizzard "Chill" doesn't generate a combatlog entry. This is the Blizzard Debuff Rank 6 applies. These are the Imp Blizz chill debuffs - Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft, Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft, Chilled - Spell - World of Warcraft
Frostbolt, and all other spells with chill effects, do it server-side, because the spell actually applies the Mod Speed Slow Aura.

Actually, you can test this by blizzarding a mob that's not in combat. It'll run at you for a fraction of a second before being slowed. So the slow is being applied independent of the spell hit. Whereas Frostbolt is applied on spell hit. My explanation may not be the only reason for this happening.

I've never payed attention to the combat log entries for Blizzards snare since I've never had it for non-FoF proccing reasons. Interesting. Next PTR they throw up I'll spend some time futzing with it, even without a combat log entry the moment the debuff appears on the target it can be connected to a timestamp that can indicate when it is being created.

But blizzing to put them into combat does not necessarily prove your point, from your combat log:

11/6 00:43:25.144 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:26.363 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

There's a 1.249 second delay between the initial aura being applied and the first damage event. If the snare is applied with the damage events (and can be resisted with them too, likely enough), then you have a 1.249 second window for that particular target to start moving towards you before it will be snared. All that assuming they enter combat as soon as they get that initial aura, that is. I'd assume it works like other DoTs where the initial cast puts them in combat, not the first damage event. Worth proving at some point.

You might be right, I have very low latency, and was going with my gut over actual tests. I was wrong here.

I haven't proven that one one way or another. I got tied up working on the TCoM backend and didn't get around to doing a closer look at FoF last week. was going to do it tomorrow, but with Beta servers gone, and my refusal to spend actual-in-game-gold on respecs to test non-major issues I'm waiting on a PTR to look at it closer.

Lhivera mentioned a few times in his threads on the Beta forums that high ping individuals were having issues making it work, but that nobody had documented anything.

...So if there's someone out there specced frost with a crappy ping (or way to incur a crappy one artificially), I'd be interested to know if you experience major issue getting the third spell to get the benefit.

Roywyn · 11/06/08, 4:26 AM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

The short answer is there is no value to the Lightweave Embroidery or Engineering haste enchants. There is a CLEAR negative stratification of tailoring/engineering and a CLEAR positive stratification of jewelcrafting/blacksmithing, with the rest fairly balanced.

As for the gathering professions, herbalism is arguably the best with the ability to collect consumable seeds which require herbalism and give an average of 33.33 spellpower (200SP for 10 seconds with a one minute cooldown and no limit per-combat;

I was eyeing the the Hand Pyro Launcher for Engineering, which seems like it could beat a spell power enchant by a mile if and only if it benefits from fire talents, particularly crit talents for Burnout/Ignite.

And beta is finally down for good, so I have no way to test it.

And Fire Seeds have never ever worked and done anything at all for me. Yes, I did report that umpteen times.

I just love trying to give advice for unfinished, uncommented buggy content!

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Lhivera mentioned a few times in his threads on the Beta forums that high ping individuals were having issues making it work, but that nobody had documented anything.

...So if there's someone out there specced frost with a crappy ping (or way to incur a crappy one artificially), I'd be interested to know if you experience major issue getting the third spell to get the benefit.

Affix had a low ping (being in the US) and had no issues getting Ice Lances off.
I had a high ping (400ms+ being in EU) and had no issues either.

It takes some practice, and I sometimes lost a cast when I was focusing on something else and didn't manage to mash my Ice Lance button in the proper rhythm.
I'd attribute any difficulty to get a FoF3-IL to user error or experience.

aikiwoce · 11/06/08, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

I've never payed attention to the combat log entries for Blizzards snare since I've never had it for non-FoF proccing reasons. Interesting. Next PTR they throw up I'll spend some time futzing with it, even without a combat log entry the moment the debuff appears on the target it can be connected to a timestamp that can indicate when it is being created.

But blizzing to put them into combat does not necessarily prove your point, from your combat log:

11/6 00:43:25.144 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:26.363 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

There's a 1.249 second delay between the initial aura being applied and the first damage event. If the snare is applied with the damage events (and can be resisted with them too, likely enough), then you have a 1.249 second window for that particular target to start moving towards you before it will be snared. All that assuming they enter combat as soon as they get that initial aura, that is. I'd assume it works like other DoTs where the initial cast puts them in combat, not the first damage event. Worth proving at some point.

Ya, maybe I should pay attention to my data. I retract my previous theory and put forth this one. When they fixed the previously non-existent Blizzard first tick, they must have done so in a way that it doesn't actually proc the chill effect. You can see the 2.11 second delay from the initial cast till the first Winter's Chill Debuff is applied.

11/6 00:43:25.081 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce", 0x511,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,BUFF
11/6 00:43:25.144 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF130001358001C5B,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,27085,"Blizzard",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:26.363 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1030,1029,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
11/6 00:43:27.191 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,12579,"Winter's Chill",0x10,DEBUFF
11/6 00:43:27.191 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x00000000024BBDB0,"Aikiwoce",0x511,0xF1300013580054DE,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0xa28,42198,"Blizzard",0x10,1031,1030,16,0,0,0,1,nil,nil

Given this new information, the problem may not be with how the chill effect is applied at all then. It may have to do with the initial tick being broken, and breaking FoF for the rest of the spell if you don't have 1/3 Frostbite.

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

I haven't proven that one one way or another. I got tied up working on the TCoM backend and didn't get around to doing a closer look at FoF last week. was going to do it tomorrow, but with Beta servers gone, and my refusal to spend actual-in-game-gold on respecs to test non-major issues I'm waiting on a PTR to look at it closer.

Lhivera mentioned a few times in his threads on the Beta forums that high ping individuals were having issues making it work, but that nobody had documented anything.

...So if there's someone out there specced frost with a crappy ping (or way to incur a crappy one artificially), I'd be interested to know if you experience major issue getting the third spell to get the benefit.

Ya I may have jumped the gun on this one twice.

Sinless · 11/06/08, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

It takes some practice, and I sometimes lost a cast when I was focusing on something else and didn't manage to mash my Ice Lance button in the proper rhythm.
I'd attribute any difficulty to get a FoF3-IL to user error or experience.

People are saying that getting shatter combo off the last charge of FoF might end up as a dps loss when icelance falls below 60% of frostbolt damage. This is not exactly right because the shattered Ice Lance also has a +50% crit chance modifier compared to a non-shattered frostbolt.

My question is, is it safe to say that getting the shatter combo off the 2nd FoF charge will remain to be a dps increase until we are decked out in Naxx gear?

Fizzl · 11/06/08, 5:51 AM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

other than eng goggles which are outclassed already in Naxx10

Which exactly?
Nax 10, frostfire head has 87 spell power and 43 crit.
Visage Liquification Goggles have 87 spell power and 73 crit.
Nax 25, frostfire head has 98 spell power and 53 crit.

OK I haven't looked at the numbers but if frostfire bolt is scaling best with crit then 20 crit might be better than 11 spell power?

Roywyn · 11/06/08, 7:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fizzl

Which exactly?
Nax 10, frostfire head has 87 spell power and 43 crit.
Visage Liquification Goggles have 87 spell power and 73 crit.
Nax 25, frostfire head has 98 spell power and 53 crit.

OK I haven't looked at the numbers but if frostfire bolt is scaling best with crit then 20 crit might be better than 11 spell power?

Gothik's Cowl are vastly better than the Goggles due to having 2 DPS stats.
Frostfire Circlet are better than Goggles because they get you the 4/5 T7 set bonus without the garbage Frostfire Robe.

Engineering isn't bad, it's definately a gain when you start raiding.
But the the other "+37 SP" option are simply better. When you start, and especially later on.

Also:
Working on the OP, last chance to get your changes in this week!

Gediablo · 11/06/08, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Working on the OP, last chance to get your changes in this week!

Nice!

The FFB section needs some updates. Like how ampl/dampen magic affects it, that the threat reduction on FFB from Burning Soul and Frost Channeling doesn't stack, Icy Veins doesn't provide pushback protection for FFB and a note that imp scorch and winter's chill doesn't stack which is important to know when speccing for FFB.

Blast wave having the added knock back should be mentioned too, as it most likely will be banned from all serious raiding in WotLK.

Maybe the number of the hit rating to aim for in gear at level 80 to get the needed 10/11% hit (assuming 3% talents, 3% shadowpriest/moonkin and possibly draenei aura) would be a smart thing to add.

Maybe I missed it, but last time I checked Burning Soul didn't provide the push back reduction promised in the tooltip.

"There can only be one Living Bomb on any one target" - I read that they fixed that, but I haven't tested if it is true.

Maybe add a note that Water Elemental doesn't have AoE protection like Blizzard announced all pets should have.

Xentropy · 11/06/08, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sinless

People are saying that getting shatter combo off the last charge of FoF might end up as a dps loss when icelance falls below 60% of frostbolt damage. This is not exactly right because the shattered Ice Lance also has a +50% crit chance modifier compared to a non-shattered frostbolt.

But the non-shattered frostbolt has a chance to proc another FoF, whereas the ice lance does not. It basically removes 1.5 seconds of time spent casting spells that can proc the extra crit for more spells. Lhivera's way of doing the math was to calculate normal frostbolts at 27.75% shatter, because that is the chance that one of the last two frostbolts proc'd FoF and thus the current one is shattered. The fact a proc on the second of the two charges is lost changes the math a bit, but I doubt by enough to make trying to icelance worthwhile past 1800-ish spellpower as Lhivera calculated.

It's also, even at gear levels where it is a benefit, a benefit on the order of less than 1% additional overall dps. ONE non-shattered ice lance due to poor timing will remove the benefit of over twenty shattered ice lances. Personally, I can't guarantee I'll hit more than 95% of the ghost charges because my latency is variable during raid times, so I won't be doing it at level 80. I can have 500ms one moment and 50ms a few seconds later, especially around prime time. I feel this variable latency makes exploiting the third charge more difficult than consistently low OR consistently high latencies. I have a much easier time exploiting ghost charges 100% of the time in the middle of the night when my latency is consistently low. I rarely have consistently high latency, but others have stated they have high latency and have had no issues, leading to my hypothesis that it's related to momentary "blips" of higher or lower latency causing me to miss ghost charges.

TheSecretArts · 11/06/08, 11:54 AM

I wondering personally (if this hasn't been answered) that with new talent changes, how will the importance of crit / spell power be balanced out for a raid-specced fire mage. Should they stack for crit, or should there be a ratio? Because I know that the effectiveness of +crit scales with +spell power but proportionately what is the most effective to maximize dps when itemizing. Because of the many talents in fire tree that are reliant on critting and the fact that more critting = more mana, more ignite, and more damage overall, should fire mages be stacking primarily crit to high levels or should there be a more intricate balance of spell power and crit to maximize potential damage. I myself am pushed to stack crit because of all the talents but I'm unsure of really am I making the right choice.

Prandur · 11/06/08, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by TheSecretArts

I wondering personally (if this hasn't been answered) that with new talent changes, how will the importance of crit / spell power be balanced out for a raid-specced fire mage. Should they stack for crit, or should there be a ratio? Because I know that the effectiveness of +crit scales with +spell power but proportionately what is the most effective to maximize dps when itemizing. Because of the many talents in fire tree that are reliant on critting and the fact that more critting = more mana, more ignite, and more damage overall, should fire mages be stacking primarily crit to high levels or should there be a more intricate balance of spell power and crit to maximize potential damage. I myself am pushed to stack crit because of all the talents but I'm unsure of really am I making the right choice.

this can best be answered by providing an equality between spelldamage, haste and crit. Of course the exact ratio depends on your gear setup, but for a fire mage (not FFB) at level80 for SP-level gear (= beginning of Naxx raiding) it's about 1haste=0.75dmg and 1crit=0.76dmg. FFB could expect crit to be better but still less than 1 spelldamage, at least until you get higher levels of spelldamage from naxx gear.

Roywyn · 11/06/08, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Prandur

this can best be answered by providing an equality between spelldamage, haste and crit. Of course the exact ratio depends on your gear setup, but for a fire mage (not FFB) at level80 for SP-level gear (= beginning of Naxx raiding) it's about 1haste=0.75dmg and 1crit=0.76dmg. FFB could expect crit to be better but still less than 1 spelldamage, at least until you get higher levels of spelldamage from naxx gear.

"Scale Factors" in SampleOutput - simulationcraft - Google Code
Those are the "absolute DPS per stat point".

Zaldinar · 11/06/08, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

People are saying that getting shatter combo off the last charge of FoF might end up as a dps loss when icelance falls below 60% of frostbolt damage. This is not exactly right because the shattered Ice Lance also has a +50% crit chance modifier compared to a non-shattered frostbolt.

The full condition is:

"When a frozen Ice Lance (thus 3X damage and 50% crit from being frozen) exceeds 60% of the damage of a Frostbolt including allowances for the Frostbolt proccing FoF and BF"

It just gets simplified in discussion to just the 60%, since the two clarifications are implied in the discussion, usually.

Edit: Roywyn, there's a thread over on the US Mage forums (World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Lhiveria baffles me (haste/mps)) with a question about the first post of this thread (for some reason they think you're Lhivera, aswell).

What do you mean by -MPS when associated with haste? Logic would seem to me that if I have a 300 mana spell that has a 3 second cast time I use 100 Mana Per Second, if I add enough haste to make it a 1.5 second spell, I use 200 mana per second, meaning MPS should rise with haste, not fall. Unless I'm using the wrong acronym decoding of MPS, that is.