Anedris

Given that the Blue didn't mention frost mages when talking about mana batteries, that may well be gone.

But regardless, why do mages raid as fire now? Oh yes, because it does about 5% more DPS than frost. Is there any particular reason the same can't be true in Wrath? Even if the water elemental providing mana remains, it's useless if you already have a retadin and a survival hunter. Why not go fire if the "mana regen" buffs are already covered by others?

 

Lhivera

Fire can bring exactly the same thing to the table as Frost. Basically, Frost and Fire Mages seem to be 100% interchangeable now (so their DPS better also be pretty much interchangeable, but they still have a lot of tuning to do in that department).

Of course it depends on what happens with Improved Water Elemental. If it turns out to be an extra piece of utility still, then Fire will need a DPS bump relative to Frost to compensate. But it might not. Who knows, maybe they'll just slap the Avoidance thing onto the talent.

But basically it's pretty much looking like, yeah, you're right, there's no reason to take a Fire Mage over a Frost Mage...but there's no reason not to, so who cares?

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Lons

That's what I'm talking about Lhivera, if the water elemental remains as a mana battery, what guild wouldn't take just frost mages just as much now as before when they could still grab scorch...

By removing scorch from it all they can just pick up the focus magic and still get what ever they please. The elemental is the question and seeing as they didn't even mention it. I'd assume and yes, that gets me into trouble at times, that they haven't changed it at all.

Please forgive my earlier post, but as has been stated by Lhivera before, frost is basically just 5% fire as it is and has a lot more survivability etc. By making this crit instead of damage, fire not only falls behind, but falls behind by a good deal in both utility and damage. I'm sure they will juggle the numbers around. It was a severe shock to my system.

Question though Lhivera:

What would you say will be to much crit in a raid environment. I mean is a 50 or 60% crit rate which is becoming conceivable, viable with the threat redux that we will be seeing?

 

Lhivera

Keep that bit about them juggling the numbers in mind, though. They're not going to let Fire DPS sit 10% below Frost if Frost is bringing more utility. They'll make changes. I don't know how exactly, without making some of the talents downright silly, but they'll have to do it.

I also think your assumption about Imp. WE not changing is probably wrong. This is the second major blue post that has explicitly laid out a list of mana-battery specs and left Frost Mages off the list. It seems unlikely that that's an accident.

There's no such thing as too much crit, any more than you can have too much of any DPS stat. As always, if you're threat capped, you're threat capped; it doesn't really matter how you get there. Really, you usually want to be threat capped, because that means you're doing as much damage as you can possibly do (naturally you want a bit of a safety buffer). Watch your meter, hold back if you have to.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

PSGarak

Don't get too hung up on Focus Magic. I doubt you'll need someone to spec 11 arcane. There are what, four specs or classes that can bring that buff? There's no need for a mage to neuter themselves to do it, they may not even have the top-line version of it. If 11 arcane is "mandatory" in a frost spec, and especially if it's making the difference between frost and fire, blizzard will fix it.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

Xentropy

As currently implemented, frost mages will be nerfed 9% by this patch, (frost loses 3% EP and thus 3% "other stuff" on gear must be changed to hit, frost loses 6% to partial resists that did not exist before) and fire by 5% (10% crit instead of 15% damage). How is fire falling further behind, exactly?

Stop taking these changes in a vacuum. Other things are affecting dps as well. And base damage numbers/scaling WILL need to be looked at in the coming dps balance pass.

To say it for the hundredth time since you haven't seemed to really understand it yet: DPS balance has not been looked at yet in WotLK. At all. Not in the slightest. All they've been balancing is percentage effects and base abilities, not dps output. That comes last, because it's much easier to change numbers in a completed spreadsheet than add whole new functions and cells to said spreadsheet.

In fact, this consolodation of buffs/debuffs helps simplify the spreadsheet a great deal. No longer will they have to work out 50 small melee buffs vs 5 large caster buffs. No longer do they have shadow damage stacking to infinity while other schools fall behind. They can assume every raid is going to be bringing every buff (because now it's easy to do so) and balance everyone accordingly. The dps pass has the potential of being better than ever before at truly balancing both output and scaling across multiple gear levels.

 

Sinless

I don't know how people can't see this. Fire now has an exclusive +15% buff to its damage. Other classes have 0% benefit from improved scorch.

With these changes, fire will lose 15% damage, gain 10% crit. BUT, all other caster dps will also get 10% crit. This means, fire mages will lose a relative 15% damage compared to other dps caster classes.

 

Stein

If you ignore all other changes (e.g. shadow weaving, frost talents detailed above, ...) AND if they do no more balancing.

They've clearly stated repeatedly that they haven't even tried to balance yet. Please stop with these "the sky is falling" posts.

 

Sinless

I know, they will of course make changes. I am not against these changes, I am against the belief that fire mages only lose 5% damage.

 

epiphenom

And then they'll buff fire damage by 15% (or more), either through an increase to base damage or through talents. Is that not obvious? I pointed out in the old thread that all vulnerability bonuses are just time and mana penalties before you can attack at full power, and if they weren't there, our damage would be higher to compensate. That's what's going to happen here. Calm down.

 

Skallewag

And if you read up just one post you will notice the part stating that DPS balancing hasnt been done yet. Seriously, why does so many assume that blizz doesnt grasp the consequenses of changing scorch like this? This change is great both spec and dps wise. Mages will not be forced into any bitch specs and the fact that you cant abuse absurd stacking of any kind our damage will be a lot closer to what blizz intends across all levels of raiding. TBC balancing was far from perfect, but WotLK balancing will be way way more accurate. Blizzard intends for us to be a pure dps class, rest assured of that.

The one thing Im less sure about mages but really really hope for balancing wise is that AM doesnt turn into a "cast on proc only" spell. 13 talentpoints boosting this spell seems like such a waste if its not a worthy main nuke. Personally I also dont get why Missile Barrage isnt alowed to proc of AM. This means that 5 of the talentpoints spent on improving the spell AM discourages the use of it anywhere outside a barrage proc. Every AM cast is 5 sec of guaranteed not procing this talent you spend 5 points on. If AB isnt meant to be spammed like it has been then why not make the talents improving the only remaining arcane nuke (that doesnt have a CD) encourage use of that spell? Then offcourse this could be one of the things changed when balancing arcane DPS. Im just more convinced that mage DPS will be balanced than I am of AM becoming one of the main nukes that acomplishes this.

Wouldn´t responding to something you claim to ignore, per definition make you a liar?
If so then what does passing judgement on an idea you claim to not know make you?

 

◊ manly

"Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact"
My interpretation is that focus magic does not stack with any of those buffs. In other words, its not like a flat 150 more spell damage 50 charge across the raid for every player, its more like 'your gain is "150 - (bestof: imp. DS / flametongue / totem of wrath / demonic pact)"

Or put another way, its the mage equivalent to totems.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Tyrian

I don't understand the constant talk about the WE regeneration still, after having read the latest Blue post. With Ret Pallys+Spriest+Hunter all able to proc replenishment for 10 people at a time - you would only need 2 of those 3 in the raid to have it on all mana users.

Im sure most guilds will easily field 2/3 of those specs and the WE wouldn't really be needed - as they will be able to keep replenishment on all mana users without it.

I am assuming that if the WE still provides mana regen, it will be along the Replenishment model, not the current mp/5 design. Now some guilds won't be able to get 2/3 of Hunter+Ret+Spriest, so the WE suddenly becomes important again as the second source of replenishment for the 11th-20th raid members. But its going to vary greatly between guilds.

 

Xentropy

But frost already had the 10% crit, which used to be to just itself, but all other casters gain that 10%. Thus frost is losing 10% relative to other dps casters (including fire mages), since they're all gaining 10% crit and frost isn't going to 20%. Meanwhile frost loses 6% to partial resists and 3% to ghost hit fix. So a total 19% loss instead of fire's 15% loss.

My main point (frost is losing even more than fire) still holds up. Dps will be rebalanced around these new overall buff numbers. Also, did you note how many shadow buffs are becoming self-only instead of raid-wide? I think shadow locks may lose more than fire *or* frost mages on a straight percentage-buff basis.

Right now, at 70, if they didn't change base damage values, coefficients, or gear at all, caster dps would be all over the place compared to where it is right now, even including level 70 spell ranks and new talents. It will be compensated for, so please stop looking at changes in a vacuum. I trust Blizzard at least long enough to see them make their first few dps passes and get an idea of whether they're on the right track.

I'm going to see if I can easily make a quick relative/absolute dps change chart based just on changes to buffs/debuffs and edit it into this post. It's going to be some work, though, given even -5% for an absolute fire change would be wrong--wrath of air is haste we didn't have before, and overall damage may actually increase.

Edit: This is a rough first pass and I'm sure I'm missing something, but should put things into a little more perspective for the "sky is falling" crowd.

Assumed previous available raid buffs: Wrath of Air (100 spellpower), Moonkin aura (5% crit), CoE w/o malediction (10% damage), Misery (5% damage), Totem of Wrath (+3% hit, +3% crit)

Changes to raid buffs all casters absorb: Wrath of Air (-100 spellpower, +5% haste), 10% CoE replaced with 13% debuff (+3% damage), Misery (-5% damage, +3% hit), Totem of Wrath (crit stays, -3% hit, becomes a currently unknown amount of spellpower), Focus Magic (+150 spellpower, seems to be the largest of these affects available at the moment so we'll use that), Sanctified retribution (+2% damage) -- used instead of Ferocious inspiration 3% since FI may not be up at all times, but this should be 100% sustainable, Imp. Moonkin aura (+3% haste), Winter's Chill or Imp Scorch becomes raidwide (+10% crit)

Total changes to all casters: +50 spellpower (-WoA +FM), +8% haste, +10% crit (note Misery's changes cancel out totem of wrath's change on the hit side plus the 3% extra CoE/EP/EaM and sanctified ret changes on the damage side) -- We'll call 50 spellpower +3% damage at lvl 70 and the overall raidwide change = ~+21%

Ignoring stat buffs since for casters these have very minimal effects to dps and will be largely staying similar.

Class/spec - Relative changes (%) -- subtracted from the +21% above gained by everyone
Frost mage - Winter's chill becomes raidwide (-10% crit), Frostbolt becomes partially resistable (-6% damage), Ghost Hit fixed (-3% hit) = -19%
Fire mage - Imp. Scorch becomes raidwide and changes effect (-15% damage) = -15%
Shadowbolt lock - Shadow weaving now self-only (-10%), Succubus sacrifice nerfed (-5%) = -15%
Shadowpriest - Improved shadowbolt now self-only (-15% at 100% uptime, will figure 2/3 uptime for -10%) = -10%
Elemental sham - No personal buffs become raidwide, no relative changes
Moonkin - No personal buffs become raidwide, no relative changes

I may easily be missing some things; this is a first pass, and with how fast and furious the changes have been, I have not been paying very close attention to non-mages, so please let me know if I've missed a buff/debuff change that affects one of the current caster dps classes used in TBC.

These are only raid-vs-personal-buff relative changes. I realize new abilities, spell ranks, and talents are going to change things a great deal for all classes as well. Fingers of Frost is a great increase in overall dps for frost mages; Living Bomb promises to be a nice increase in overall dps for fire mages; and so on.

Expect classes that lose the most to relative changes to gain the most personal buffage in the dps pass to come. Note some were already further down the dps lists than others (the hybrids especially) and this will actually help adjust them in the right direction automatically. Shadow priests will need significant dps love as things currently look.

 

webmeister

Pure speculation here, but I wonder if the Water Elemental might be getting changed to only replenish your own mana?

It would be odd, since Frost has the best efficiency of all three mage trees, but still a possibility.

 

Gediablo

Probably the same as Mana Tide ends up with.

 

maxi

I am happy with the scorch change.
The 10% crit debuff was shaping up to become completely essential for a firemage, and it is good that it is now part of the fire tree.

I am curious about new mana regeneration mechanics. Having more mana means more Living Bomb means more damage for a firemage. Sadly, we have no info yet.

I am slightly worried that there seems to be no immediate reason to bring both a frost and fire mage in raid. I am also slightly worried that the raid-support skills we have still provide us with only a single guaranteed raidspot in an optimised raid, so, unless mages are clearly the top dps class in WotLK, there is still no reason to bring more than one.

Raid-utility wise, the mage class is still only so very slightly better off than we were in TBC.

 

Xentropy

Thie same post had most of the info we need in regards to this. You can expect 0.5% total mana regeneration per second from Replenishment, instead of whatever you used to get from a shadow priest. I suspect blessing of wisdom will remain, as will mana spring. Mana tide and water elemental are the remaining big question-marks.

Really the point of these changes is to make sure there's no reason to bring more than one of ANY class. Therefore, with 10 (probably less) slots, you've filled your quota, and the other 15 can be whoever you like. Granted, if dps is poorly balanced, this will mean bringing 15 subtlety rogues (to use an absurd example, but if somehow sub rogues are overbalanced, it'll happen). However, given the simplification of the dps spreadsheet as a result of these changes, it should be easier to balance personal dps of every raid-worthy spec to within 2-3% of one another, meaning player skill should make a much larger difference than anything else, and you won't either be guaranteed *or* denied a raid slot based on the buffs you bring (or fail to bring).

It all hinges on the dps balance phase, but while the top 5% of guilds may really bring 15 of one class because their dps is 1% higher, most guilds will be happy to bring a mix based on skill, friendship, and even just who's around at the time provided dps is at least within a 5% or so window of balance.

 

Reinhars

I would like Blizzard to go a step farther.
If imp scorch and winterchill apply two twin debuff, make it the same debuff.
Replace the two by "elemental vulnerability" and have them refresh each other.
It will make also a bit of room on this ever crowded debuff slot.

That would certainly not work for all the other debuff, but in this case I see no drawback (but I'm a naive gnome).

 

itchytf

I don't really understand all the doom and gloom. Surely this is a good thing - especially for mages!

Due to their redesigning of all raid buffs/debuffs, they're going to be looking at how much damage each class is doing as a result they are therefore going to make it so that classes which are currently underperforming (aka Mages) are now doing equal damage to everyone else.

I can not see how this is a bad thing at all.

Also on the note of maga regeneration. The classes mentioned (shadow priest, ret pally and survival hunter) are probably the classes which are going to provide steady mana regeneration throughout the entire fight. The water elemental is on a cooldown and therefore provides mana regeneration more similar to that of mana tide totem. Perhaps they'll change it so that mana tide totems and water elementals don't stack too.

Edit: And about 50 people have already compared the 2, so bleh

 

Eusheka

I honestly dont feel that blizzard trying to push this goal of theirs in needing only one of each class is going to be very successful at all. No matter how much they balance one class will always end up top of the pile and with all of us being min-maxers by nature, once the manditory buffing slots are filled this one class will end up stacked.

 

Jonny_Monroe

what I find interesting is the increased volume of effects that restore mana as a % of your mana; putting even more focus on INT as a regenerative stat rather then SPI. In playing with my arcane builds I often wonder if its worth speccing for 10% more SPI when Replenish can easilly be worth 500mp5 (20k mana), JoW will work out ~500mp5 and spring+BoW will cover a good chunk of this too. I wouldn't jump to conclusions until I see personal regen values at 80 but even with the vast amounts of SPI on gear at 80 it still seems quite easy for spirit to become dwarfed by heavy %-of-mana effects on a high INT build.

OMNOMNOM.

 

Prom

I have to say I saw the scorch change coming a mile away.
Can we expect a similar WC glyph now and it's uptime increased to 30s ?

As for Bloodlust affecting the whole raid; you pop it at 20% you get less uptime of molten fury, you pop it earlier on you don't get the significant haste buff during molten fury. This is assuming your raid currently pops bloodlust at different times in different groups, which I know many guilds tend to do. I know it's knit picking but my point is that you will get less out of this useful talent and I hope the devs will take that out into account.

They must find it difficult....
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority.

 

Shadout

It does seem a bit heavy with 5 buffs which doesnt stack (I havent really checked if there are other cases like this). It easily risks making 2-3 of those buffs totally ignorable by everyone unless Blizz balance the classes amazingly well.
In a perfect execution of what they seem to aim for with all these changes, most categories should have 2-3 buffs which didnt stack with each other as I see it.


And for the WE, to add unto speculations, it would seem weird if it regenerated mana for the owner only. Frost mages seem to be the class who need more mana the least (with fire having Living Bomb and Arcane having AB). Guess they are more likely to remove the mana regen.
It could be kinda interesting if they made WE regen mana for all mages in the raids only (if thats even technically doable). Adding some bonus for mages using different specs. Wont happen, I know.

 

Reinhars

They changed the lookalike deathknight ability to start at 35%, I wonder if this is a sign of changes to come.
They justified the change by the fact that targets were dying too fast once at 20% for you to really benefit from it.