Nurru

It's just a similar mechanic. Nothing he says and no changes on beta make any indication of such a change to things like Execute and Molten Fury.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

dedmonwakeen

Because I was fooling around with stacking Haste and increasing the "AB buff" duration to see if I could find a reasonable trade-off that they might implement...... and then I forgot to change it back.

The fb_priority option was to tell the AI to give priority to Frostbolt provided the Frozen buff/debuff would not run out before Frostbolt was finished casting. This was necessary for supporting Winters Grasp and the older duration-based FoF.

I would put the following in front of frost_bolt: deep_freeze,fb_priority=1/ice_lance,frozen=1 (frozen=1 prevents IL from being cast when the target is not frozen or "virtually frozen".)

However.... once the buff moved to being charged-based I ignore the duration because it is always better to use Frostbolt if you don't have to worry about the buff running out mid-cast.

I did not implement the ghost-charge because I assumed that since the buff stack is most likely client-side that they would be able to make this work correctly. The alternative is to support time-of-flight in the sim which would dramatically increase the number of events for some classes..... but that may be the only solution.

Yeah.... I just didn't know where to put them..... There didn't see any real good alternatives to improved single-target DPS, but I certainly haven't looked hard enough.

Back when it was at 40% of base mana, the missle_barrage/arcane_barrage/arcane_blast priority was doable.... barely.

It could be a scaling issue..... Roy was using much higher levels of Spell Power at equivalent crit/haste.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Xentropy

Tried that, and it lowered dps significantly. Looking closer to see why, I noticed deep freezes aren't usually critting (average damage 1823) so somehow it's either using them when FoF isn't up (which should be impossible) or they aren't benefiting from shatter (which they should). I am unable to apply frozen=1 to Deep Freeze. Taking out Deep Freeze altogether still resulted in a reduction in dps because it's using frostbolt/icelance (or possibly even icelance/icelance) on FoF procs instead of frostbolts. Frostbolt's overall average damage per cast ends up dropping precipitously.

It isn't a matter of time-of-flight, really, it's a matter of spell timing and client/server communication. In fact, I find it highly unlikely that the client rather than the server tracks buffs, since that would leave a wide open hole for client hacking to result in permanent buffs. I would be very surprised if this issue is fixable without completely revamping the current spell timing system. You could just add a setting for "number of FoF charges" that we could set to 3 to manually force that ghost charge and see what effect it has. Some way of forcing the AI to only use an instant for the last of the three charges would be necessary, though, and no available settings seem to do that right now.

There's something else, because this is what I get putting 3000 spellpower on frost, fire, and frostfire:

 

dedmonwakeen

You don't need frozen=1 on Deep Freeze because it is already a required conditional.

Given that Improved Frost Bolt, Empowered Frost Bolt, and Chilled to the Bone all improved Frostbolt and leave Deep Freeze untouched, it doesn't take much spell power to overcome the high base damage of Deep Freeze.

Understood. Let me mull it over and see if I can create something reasonable.

I'm pretty sure I found the problem: I was not giving FFB the 5% snare penalty.



FFB is helped out a little by virtue of the fact that Fireball has to waste time on Evocation.

EDIT: SVN has been updated. I'll put out a new download when I've solved the "ghost-charge" problem.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Myrdinn

Pintofbrew, just for clarification about this.
On the current build, shatter barrier is triggering a spell just like Frost Nova, but targets are not considered as frozen.

 

Xentropy

FFB doesn't receive the 5% snare penalty, actually. Its current coefficient is simply 3.0/3.5 = 85.714%. This is leaving most mages wondering why frostbolt still receives a penalty at all, since it's not binary anymore and has no benefit FFB does not. So if you were using a non-penalized coefficient you were correct for now.

I think I'm misunderstanding something about what "damage per execute time" means, and Deep Freeze's output still seems incorrect somehow. Looking at the text results output, Deep Freeze looks like it currently crits for the same as it hits.
"Hit=2538 CritHit=2538|2538|92.3%"

I read this to mean it's critting 92.3% of the time for the same damage as a hit.

In comparison frostbolt looks like this:
"Hit=4130 CritHit=8261|8265|53.8%"

Correct double-damage crits.

 

Carnivean

Nope they are definately considered frozen.

 

dedmonwakeen

Hmm..... I was going by Lhivera's reference page in which the DD portion of FFB scales at 81%. (86% if you include the DoT)

Found the Deep Freeze problem. Thanks for the detailed analysis.... It was calculating the crit bonus incorrectly.

But......... even after it is fixed, it seems Deep Freeze just doesn't scale as well.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Nurru

No, they are definitely not. You cannot Deep Freeze off a Shattered Barrier proc.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

flyingtoastr

JoW has been "gotten to". It now restores 2% of total mana per proc, 4 second internal cooldown. In you get a proc on cooldown it is equal with Replenishment, otherwise it is worse.

For an AB spamming mage with 6% haste from NWP, 5% from Wrath of Air and 3% from Swift Retribution/Improved Boomkin you're looking at an effective cooldown of 4.36 seconds, or .459% of your total mana pool/second.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

dedmonwakeen

Is JoW still a debuff on the mob or has it become a distributed player buff ala Replenishment?

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

flyingtoastr

Debuff still. Completely separate from Replenishment, which is given by Judgements of the Wise.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Hauser

Very thorough. Just curious, what ever happened to the devs' report of 8k mage DPS, was that due to FFB double-dipping or some other mechanic that's been changed? Ever since I heard about that I was expecting to see some huge DPS numbers from beta testers, but it looks like a best case only gets about halfway to 8k/s.

 

Akston

The statement was akin to our "jaw-dropping damage" from tbc, i.e. non-existent. Even with double dipping on FFB number weren't approaching 8k with full raid buffs and 3k spell damage much less the far more realistic gear levels. The only thing i could possibly see causing such damage would have been a boss that is vulnerable to frost, fire or both, a boss that starts at sub-50% or some other rather gimmicky scenario. Given normal circumstances there has been no indication that mage dps has ever been more than 2 times what it should be in a pve setting.

 

Darkmantle

The exact phrasing can be read at MMO-Champion BlueTracker - *Kalgan says mages are doing too much damage*

The most interesting statement was:
Note that we test things in level 80 greens, level 80 blues and level 80 epics. We also do trials with fully debuffed mobs with fully buffed raids. The way the mage from QA was able to do that DPS was through a very specific build, which I haven't seen emulated from the beta testers yet.

Which implies either a new talent or ability that was in a build not available to the beta public or there is some combination of talents that the beta testers haven't done. It might be because there is some bug in a talent that no one usually takes but turns out to massively boost FFB.

 

dedmonwakeen

Though minor, there were enough bug fixes to warrant another download release of SimulationCraft.
The ones worth mentioning:
(1) Support for new JoW mechanics
(2) Proper coefficients for FFB
(3) Proper crit bonus calculation for Deep Freeze



Support for new JoW mechanics was enough to eliminate down-time for the Fireball Mage.....

Current plan is to put the interface development on hold and get back to adding more classes. Next up are Warlock and Paladin.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

◊ manly

You do realise that a talent giving 8k dps would have to basically double the mage dps ? I'm sorry but its hard not to call BS on this. Extremely hard. Or maybe they used infinite mana, 2pcT5 and did some AB spamming (coupled with yet another talent for arcane spec). Who knows.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Lgs

I don't even know if chain casting instant pyros would reach 8k dps. There's really no way he gave an accurate number.

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

alia

I was thinking it had something to do with our mystery level 80 spell, perhaps it was something like the DK 51 point blood talent, effectively doubling or tippling our DPS for a given amount of time (a la the maybe-maybe-not illusion talent).

If our "splits" gave 1/3 or 2/3s our dps, 8k would be no problem.

Or he was just making up numbers for effect.

 

Xentropy

I don't think anyone in the history of WoW has ever put points into Frozen Core. Maybe it's been bugged to add 33/67/100% damage all along!

At 5 minutes, yeah. Making the fight 6 minutes gives fire 3% downtime. Unless something changes, it looks like fire may end up using mage armor in most fights. It really doesn't affect dps that much compared to going OOM for even a few seconds, and even saving evocation can make up for some of it.

Using a 6 minute fight, mage armor for fire (w/ glyph), adding molten armor glyph to frost (again, you get 3 glyphs, not two, so I tried to add a third glyph to each that might have any effect), and doubling hit rating to 400 for each mage actor (200 is well under cap) gave me this:


Note: If I'm reading the data right, FoF proced 15 times in the 360-second fight, and each use of deep freeze instead of 3/5ths of a non-shatter frostbolt results in 1351 more damage in the same timeframe, so 1351 * 15 / 360 = 56 dps added to frost if the FoF-combo were modeled.

 

Nastre

I'm sure there should be a greater differential between Fire and Frostfire dps. Mana efficiency Frostfire wins hands down, but I think the dps advantage of Fire is certainly greater than what is being said above.

Interesting to see Shadow Priest dps crafted so high, especially when they are to receive substantial dps buffs (in relation to activity and comments of blues on their forums).

 

Finkum

While this is an educated guess only, as I haven't looked at the code, I'd say that the shadow priest estimates are significantly off (or else a very large chunk of the shadow priest community is wrong!)

Perhaps ISB is still being factored in, or something like that.

Boosting the scaling of Mind Flay and making it able to (150%) crit just doesn't change shadow priest DPS from terrible to better than Frost/Arcane.

 

dedmonwakeen

If you run with infinite mana, Fireball looks decent. But once you put on Mage Armor and/or spend 8sec out of 300sec fight Evocating..... it can really chew into your dps.

The SP numbers already include my interpretation of "substantial dps buffs". There was a blue post stating the coefficient for Mind Flay would be increased by 30% (putting it at the standard 3.0/3.5) and each tick would be able to crit.

I used my implementation of Arcane Missiles as the foundation for the new Mind Flay.

Out of all the caster classes, the Shadow Priests were BY FAR the most "unscathed" by the homogenization of raid synergies. This may sound like a rather limp argument...... but the compound loss of dmg multipliers, spell crit, crit bonus modifiers, and haste really hurt the other caster classes. A side-benefit of poor scaling is that you aren't that affected when some stats are removed......

That being said..... I most certainly welcome any code-reviews.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Lhivera

My fault! I had it corrected on the second table at the bottom of the page, but not on the first. I have corrected it. Sorry for the trouble.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

dedmonwakeen

Heh. My code was right the first time around...... FFB numbers are going to drift back up.........

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft