Lhivera

Quite honestly, you just plain learn to deal with this. Most of the fights you listed, it's just a matter of knowing when and where to use him. There are some where there really isn't much you can do, but they're a minority, or at least were up until Sunwell, which is where I stopped.

That said, it would be awfully nice for it to get the same Avoidance skill that Warlock pets get.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Daydreamer

And with all that it's amusing, in a rather sad way, that non-Arcane Mages *still* get very little to no benefit from Spirit... and frankly that's a problem I'm very surprised doesn't seem to be on the books to be addressed.

 

mako

Your current assessment of pet-unfriendly fights seems way off.

Naj - frost damage, lol immune elemental
Sup - no aoe damage during tank phase, the only time your elemental would viable be able to dps
akama - lol
bloodboil - positioning pet intelligently away from raid members removes all issues of potential splash. alternatively, cast during start of fel-rage.
ros - pets are immune to backlash in p2, and aoe in p3.
Illidan - intelligent summoning during human phases negates issues with flame burst.

So you have.... teron, with very limited splash, and mother.

However, it seems rather silly for water elemental to be made into a super mana tide totem of sorts. If the regen is considered significant and important, you will not want to summon your elemental near the start of the fight, and thus may lose the ability to summon it an additional time, or at least not benefit fully from the final summon, depending on the fight.

If mana is an issue for any roles, it will likely be targeted towards healers in wrath, so you could expect something along the lines of a frost mage being swapped into the healers group just to regen them.

Also, seeing blizzard's current infatuation with spirit, I would also see it as possible a water elemental's mana regen will be changed to be tied to spirit instead.

<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com

 

Zeldyrr

I don't usually play the "what I would do game" but in this case I'd be happy if:

-- Mages were given some brilliance aura/mana regen as the skill to replace shatter shield. That way it is available across all specs.
-- Make improved WE give avoidance (in addition to increased duration) which helps only the frost mage, and only in PvE really

But I doubt that is happening.

 

solbergb

Given how living bomb is shaping up I don't think you can rule out a 51+ fire build with either icy veins or arcane focus instead of 50/21 (that is more likely to be a frostfire build). I frankly don't understand the arcane rotations enough to even comment.

There may not be a "primary raiding" spec. Rather you'd get pairs...like arcane+frostfire or deep fire+deep frost combos. From what I'm seeing so far, you'll get more raid synergy with two different mage specs than two of the same kind, and DPS won't be all that hugely different betwen the most popular 4-5 specs.

Also keep in mind that what is best for 25 man may not be best for 10/5 man (2/47/11+1 works well in all of those. The popular 2T5+arcane-blast spam builds don't work as well without the mana support provided in a 25 man. In 5 mans, crowd control and utility stuff like dragon breath, permafrost, slow etc have a bigger impact than in the larger raids)

 

Nurru

Except that with no worthwhile talents affecting it and no cast time decrease it becomes a question of whether that 2.5 second cast spell is worth using to waste mana at the end of a fight when a 3.0 Fireball or Frostfire Bolt could do significantly more in both base damage (Fireball) and crits (both).

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Benlol

Unless I'm mistaken, the improved water elemental regen is still raid wide as opposed to group wise.

 

Thegoodman

Another potential issue with the WE utility is when we use it. Most mages will begin a fight by using 2 consecutive Water Elementals and another as soon as the CD is up.

Many healers will request that we save the WE for a time when the Mana regen is not wasted, which is counterproductive to our overall DPS.

Would there be a potential Arcane Blast while WE is up, Frostbolt when it isn't spec? I know that deep arcane is what makes AB spam possible, but a lot of mana may make it viable as well.

 

Lhivera

I think if you wait about 5-10 seconds and then summon the elemental, the regen won't be wasted; mana pools will be diminished enough that the Water Elemental won't be able to top them off as long as everyone's still casting. What it'll do is make the first two minutes of the fight very nearly mana-neutral, so that other regen/restore options can be saved for after that mark.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

mako

My apologies, i missed that.

That would make WE regen significantly more powerful than I was thinking ><

It would definitely still bring up the issue of saving the WE for regen later in the fight when others need it.

<Bad> Dragonmaw US
www.damnwesuck.com

 

solbergb

Given that scorch has a rampup and now applies to frost stuff too, I'd say you would want to wait 10s or so anyway to blow all your cooldowns (including WE) at the beginning of the fight, just like fire mages do now. If you wait for the scorch stack to be established, especially if there is only one scorcher, people will be down enough mana to benefit from the WE, most likely.

 

kadgar

Yes it's only a useful mana dump for arcane speccs. I remember someone in the old thread calculated that AB spem is (nearly) no dmg increase for a deep frost mage over frostbolts.


I think this is a too simple view. You have to consider 10 and 25 man raids here.
The first and perhaps 2nd such manasource (spriest/ imp. WE mage) will probably be useful (if not, you are right that mana mechanic has some serious problems).

In a 10 man raid you'll be happy if you have 1 such manasource and this will be very welcome and useful.
In 25 man raids, you'll have way more manasources and can easily reach the point, where you generate more mana than you use. But in that case, that doesn't mean mana is broken. It's just some unused utility, like today the Draenei Shaman spell hit aura in a haler or hit capped caster group, Paladins auras in several cases, etc.

 

Zeldyrr

That's tricky to balance then. If the improved WE brings no utility in 25-man raids (because mana is not an issue due to a whatever reason) than frost dps = fire dps = arcane dps. The value of that utility is 0% damage reduction.

But in the 10-man situation, where it is valuable, suddenly it should have a cost.

Which in my mind makes an active ability much more interesting. Imagine an active brilliance aura. When it is on, you give mana to the raid (be it 10-man or 25-man or just a 5-man group) but your personal damage is decreased while active. Now you have a choice (and a consequence). Bring utility when we need it or do damage when we don't.

Something like that is vastly superior than a passive ability that is there whether you want it or not and will forever be a source of arguments about utility versus personal DPS.

 

Sleepingspud

Has anyone thought about how the new downranking changes to spells seem to balance out the Imp. WE change? If max rank spells become the name of the game, it's likely mana consumption would go through the roof. Blizzard may be trying to offset the change by giving healers a larger mana surplus. I'm also pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that encounters might have more AOE elements to them than previously.

 

◊ manly

Ok so heres the base mana cost for everything now. I am 0/0/0 and have no talents lowering the costs. All spells are max rank for lvl 77. Percentages are of the base mana.

Arcane Blast - 40%, 1184 (lol)
Arcane Barrage - 18%, 522
Fireblast - 21%, 621
Fireball - 21%, 621
Frostfire Bolt - 16%, 473
Scorch - 8%, 236
Frostbolt - 15%, 444
Ice Lance - 7%, 207
Deep Freeze - 8%, 236

Shadowbolt - 17% (cheaper than fireball, go figure)


Arcane Explosion - 25%, 725
Arcane Missiles - 34%, 1006
Focus Magic - 535
Mana Shield - 7%, 207
Polymorph - 12%, 355
Slow - 20%, 592
Spellsteal - 20%, 592
Remove Curse - 8%, 236
Blink - 21%, 620
Counterspell - 9%, 266
Invisibility - 16%, 473

Flamestrike - 53%, 1568
Blastwave - 28%, 828
Dragon's Breath - 31%, 917 (37% ?)
Living Bomb - 31%, 1095
Pyroblast - 22%, 651

Blizzard - 74%, 2190
Cone of Cold - 29%, 858
Frostnova - 8%, 236
Ice Barrier - 25%, 740
Water Elemental - 16%, 473

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Lons

Those are some pretty insane numbers, I cannot imagine that our int is going to sky rocket as much as stamina just did in TBC and as someone that love my fire....what the hell is spirit gonna do for me on the cost of these spells?

 

Searix

Not only that, but if we move to a spirit required system, where does that leave caster dps? We already have to sacrifice any semblance of regen enchants/gems right now to even stay competitive.

 

Pintofbrew

I don't challenge any change to a more mana-intensive environment; interacting with the mana-bar rather than setting the group so as to ignore it is definitely more interesting. What puzzles me, however, is the Shadowbolt change.

Before the mana-cost changes, SB was way more expensive and this cost-hike was put down to roughly the same cost as it would have, just taking into account the new 30% regen in Wrath. Fine. Then it drops to the floor? Coupled with the excellent doubling of Dark Pact's effect.

"Do not offend the chair leg of truth. It is wise and terrible. Continue."
-Spider Jerusalem

 

Jarlyn

I think these sorts of issues need to be looked at as a work-in-progress. Downranking in particular is such a drastic change (particularly to healers), it's completely unreasonable to expect them to get it right on the first pass.

The issue with spirit is a legitimate complaint and I'm fully expecting (or at least, sincerely hoping) they'll work over our armors to give us some sort of scaling from spirit.

 

Arazan

There's no need to rework our armors to give us additional scaling from spirit. Mages are the best in the game for casting regen with 60% casting regen obtainable with the combo of mage armor and arcane meditation. Casting regen is the name of the new bluebar game... it's why warlocks will be using Fel Armor (which, in its current state actually gives two separate scaling benefits based on spirit), why balance druids will be spec'ing 55/0/16, etc etc.

Here's the problem with that system, though. First, not all classes have the same casting regen. A balance druid that doesn't spec Intensity or a dps priest who doesn't spec imp spirit tap or meditation has zero casting regen, while a mage using Mage Armor and spec'ed 3/3 arcane med has 60%. The disparity is huge when you're talking the mana costs manly mentioned... if you're talking 800mp5 in fsr, the difference between 60% casting regen, 30%, and 0% is massive. So do you balance casting regen around the 60%, completely screwing over the 30% and 0%'ers? Do you balance it around the 30%'ers, forcing all casters to spec whatever casting regen talents are made available while simultaneously giving 60%'ers a free pass to spam whatever inefficient but high dps rotation they want?

The only way I can see the system working in any semblance of balance is if they give all casters 30% natural casting regen, boosted to a max of 60% via talents and abilities. Then all classes have the same availability of regen and casters who spec for the 60% casting regen aren't handicapped by their bluebar.

 

Validus

I believe they do need to rework our armors or talents to incorporate spirit scaling for all specs. Mages, Hunters, Druids, Priests, and Shamans all have either raid or party mana regeneration abilities in WotLK. Looking at spell costs and additional sources for regeneration, mana does not look like an issue for non Arcane mages on single target encounters. If Mages are using Molten Armor for PVE, is there any reason for an elemental Mage to want gear with spirit on it?

It would be interesting if they adjusted Master of Elements to allow mana regeneration while casting for X seconds after a crit or have it restore mana equal to X% of spirit instead of spell cost. Another option would be to adjust Molten Armor to convert 100% of total spirit into Critical Strike Rating. A change to a base ability rather than a talent would be ideal.

 

RpgWizard

You basically have several situations:

1) You balance ALL Mages around 60% regen - Then you force all Mages to spec 18 into Arcane and Molten armor is useless in PvE. YAY COOKIE CUTTER

2) You balance ALL Mages around 30% regen - Then Mages with 18 in arcane never worry about mana or use Molten armor for increased DPS or spec differently in order to gain a DPS advantage over other classes/specs that have mana problems

3) You balance ALL Mages around 0% regen - Then we are assumed to be using Molten armor, Mage armor is useless, and spirit is useless for Fire and Frost, with Arcane either skipping the 30% regen while casting talent or taking it and are able to use a higher DPS, higher MPS cycle.

4) If you balance Arcane mages around 60% mana regen, they are forced to use Mage armor and any situation they can use Mage armor is an unintended DPS increase.

and so on and so forth.

Either you balance around Mage Armor and anytime a mage can use Molten Armor is an unintended DPS increase. If you balance around Molten Armor, if the Mage is have mana problems, he is performing way under intended DPS while using Mage armor.

Either way, 60% mana regen is a ridiculous value to balance around, forcing all Mages to spend 18 points in Arcane in all specs. Can we say Pre-Mage class review?

 

Telvin

Seems to me like shadow- and frostfirebolts will be choices for those not caring much about their bluebar.
With mana-batteries in every raid molten armor could stay useable for frostfirespeccs, so they can focus on crit, while arcane would focus on haste and spirit.
I doubt blizzard will have every mage / warlock think carefully about mana - since many don't love tc so much and the mage is already depending on many stats in comparison.
Offering one way with minor dps-gain when taking the bluebar into account and another one more simple but still competitive - couldn't that be what they are trying to do?

 

Roywyn

A little update, as I've been a bit quiet.


Torment of the Weak
This talents actually "works", it increases your damage with spells by 6% against every target.

It doesn't depend on an "Ensnared!" debuff/message.
It's also not a health thing (like the rogue/DK talents) that increase damage if your target has less HP percent than you, or if you have more than 75% HP or whatever.

It's easy to test with AM. Spec 15 Arcane and cast, then add 3 points into Torment and test again.



"Ensnared!"
This message pops up everytime someone slows a target.
It pops up on every cast. So if you spam Frostbolt, you get an "Ensnared!" message on every hit.

It also pops up on bosses and non-slowable mobs. If you shoot Dr. Boom with a Frostbolt, you get an "Ensnared!" message and no debuff appears at all since he can't be slowed.


So, those Ensnared/Torement things are still heavily under construction and we can't tell much about them right now.



Incanter's Absorption
This buff does indeed have an exact memory.
If you absorb 100 damage at one point, you gain 15 spell power for 10 seconds, and then the extra damage fades.
If you test it with a mob that hits for very little and stand there for more than 10 seconds, you'll see the extra damage go up and down depending on what happened now and 10 seconds ago.

If you get hit for more damage, your damage goes up. If you get a dodge/miss streak, you'll see your damage go down 10 seconds later.



Spell Tooltips are misleading
That's nothig new, but now it gets even more annoying. The listed base damage for spells in the tooltip is not necessarily correct.

Arcane Missiles rank 10/11 are taught at 69/70. When you level past 70, the spell's base damage increases.
This increase however isn't shown in the tooltip.
So, while your tooltip still states 264(+1) and 285(+1) base damage, the actual base damage at 74 270(+1) and 293.
The listed base damage for AM rank 1 through 9 is correct though.

Also, the top ranks of Arcane Missile get downranking penalties right from level 71. So at 74, you lose 20% of your spell damage if you spammed AM, the next rank is taught at 75.
Thank god the spell is useless.

The tooltips for other spells may or may not work properly. The issue might be that AM rank 9/10 are from BC and don't extend well into WotLK.
The actual Wrath spells might work correctly.


If people want to test something for sure at level 80 when the spells are finalised, I'd suggest a naked 0/0/0 test to check the actual base damage of the spell in case it might be buggy.



Focus Magic
This spell works like +spell power on the target, that's hardly news.
It uses the scaling of the spell you cast, which includes the extra downranking penalty for spells below level 20, but not the other downranking penalty from being a high-level caster.
So, a level 20 Fireball would get 100% benefit from it.

I doubt that this is somehow useful, but knowledge doesn't hurt.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Actovision

This is at least the fourth time the spirit/mana regen/spell mana cost argument has been rehashed in the mage wotlk threads. Each time the same conclusion is reached: that we'll have to wait and see how all the raid support meshes together at 80 and that spirit is currently still up in the air (either useless or not enough) for frost/fire specs.