Shadout

Well, I guess the worth of 1 spellpower goes down as the base dmg of a spell goes up (and as the total dmg of your spell goes up).
E.g. +1 spelldmg is a lot better if your spell only did 10 dmg, than if it did 1000 dmg without the +1 spelldmg added. Its not scaling down as fast as the others I guess, but then again, it cant be capped like most of the others either.

I agree the ratings seem to be scaling insanely fast from 70-80. That might be an issue in itself, but spelldmg got little to do with it. One reason for the high scaling might be all the raid buffs in wotlk, you could get really high crit/hit/haste if they didn't nerf ratings substantially.

Edit: Roywyn is both faster and more thorough.

 

varaszlo

thank you Roywyn the datas and analysis. Sadly saw that deep frost didn't bring the dps what i expected. (from talents)

i'll follow the charts

 

Xentropy

Just to note, the 25-man of Naxx with the parses floating around was run while Blessing of Might was bugged to supply the buffed player with a significant amount of extra spellpower (680 or so). This (and 680 spellpower for his imp, which given pet scaling would have required thousands more spellpower for his owner) is what helped Malakai hit almost 5k dps, and helped the casters all do significantly better than they would compared to melee without this bug.

It's been hotfixed now, but this particular raid's parses are to be taken with a gigantic grain of salt.

 

lucyflawless

Further down that same thread is another post from Ghostcrawler:

"When all is said and done, if warriors, warlocks, hunters and druids are hitting for 2500 to 3000 dps, then death knights will be too. I don't think that is happening yet, but it's pretty hard to tell at the moment why that isn't happening. We'll get there. Having most (but not all) talent bugs fixed and players in Naxx is providing a lot more good data than we had a month ago." (source)

I wonder if he just mentioned some classes at random?

 

maxi

Replenfishment seems very unstable.
On the linked Patchwerk fight one mage got 180ish ticks, and other got 80ish ticks (the fight lasted 217 seconds).

 

diemage

Looking at the parse, it seems like that the firemage wasnt using the +5% dmg glyph (ticks are visible).

 

Xentropy

Replenishment applies to the 10 members of the raid with the least total mana remaining. So the mage that got far more ticks was expending mana more quickly and thus staying lower on mana more often.

Glyphs of fireball and frostbolt require >300 inscription to make and thus can't yet be created.

 

◊ manly

My best guess would be that its not affected. The reasoning is simply because IA is likely to work off from received damage, not as part of the cast. Since 'received damage' has no travel time, I doubt that will happen.

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Abnell

This obviously means that mages and rogues will be above the rest.

 

Lhivera

So a few notes from that parse:


DPS interactivity

Both Warlocks used six spells to DPS, not including their pets. Not a big change for the Affliction Warlock, a significant change for the Destruction Warlock.

Survival Hunter 1 used five shots to DPS, not including Autoshot and not including pet. Survival Hunter 2 used four shots (and didn't perform as well). A significant change.

The Fire Mage used four spells, not including Mirror Image.

The Frost Mage used two spells effectively, not including the pet or Mirror Image. He did cast Deep Freeze four times and Ice Lance once, on seven Fingers of Frost procs. Which means one of two things: either he was lazy and didn't use them on the other tree procs, or (and this seems more likely), he tried and failed to use them on the other three procs, thus losing casting time, and meaning he'd have been better off sticking to Frostbolt with BFF (Brain Freeze Fireball, or Best Friend Forever, whatever you prefer).

Beastmastery Hunter used only one shot. He may have performed better had he done otherwise, not sure.

Arcane mage used one spell.

It's clear from changes made that Blizzard is trying to increase DPS interactivity. They have succeeded with Destruction, Fire and Survival. They have failed with Frost and Arcane. I'm not sure about Beastmastery.


Mirror Image and Water Elemental and Threatless Damage

Mirror Image for all three Mages averaged out to 39,212 damage per mage. This would be about 4.5% of the Arcane Mage's damage and 5.5% of the Fire Mage's. Combined with the Water Elemental, about 16.9% of the Frost Mage's damage came from summons. This essentially equates to additional threat reduction:

Arcane: 0.6 * 0.9569 = 0.5742 = 42.58% total threat reduction
Fire: 0.9 * 0.9479 = 0.8531 = 14.69% total threat reduction
Frost: 0.9 * 0.8554 = 0.7699 = 23.01% total threat reduction


Fireball and Frostbolt and the Glyphs That Weren't Used

Fireball made up 65.08% of the Fire Mage's damage. 79 Fireball ticks should be around 2589 damage with +13% debuff on the target. So Glyph of Fireball would have increased total damage by 464367 * 0.05 - 2589 = 20629, or 2.89%.

Frostbolt made up 71.83% of the Frost Mage's damage. Glyph of Frostbolt would have increased total damage by 508557 * 0.05 = 25428, or 3.59%. This would also have put the Frost Mage's total damage output within 703 of the Fire Mage's (if both were using the glyphs).


Unless I'm missing something, though, that was the Frost Mage...that doesn't make much sense.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

cbags

So the spell rotation for the Mirror Images is not consistent, could the change Imp Scorch been because of the addition of the Mirror Images that cast Frostbolt, so that their damage is at least respectable?

 

Shadout

At least you are not setting yourself up for a disappointment
More seriously, I doubt you can conclude anything from the statement.

 

solbergb

Yes. Even leaving aside trash, 5 man "bosses" and even a number of 10 man real bosses die so fast when they hit 20% that it's hard to get more than a couple fireballs in. Obviously this isn't always the case, but it happens often enough that I often blow cooldowns on such bosses before the 20% just to get more use out of them.

This is also good for PVP, where it's all about burst. Healing often brings them out of the 20% range between the time you see it and the time you get another 1.5s spell off (or wait out global cooldown).

 

Roywyn

1) Frost is a lot of fun and very interactive with BFF and FFB/DF on FoF procs.
In 5-mans or maybe on slowable trash where you also have Frostbite procs, you literally get overwhelmed with procs and having to keep track of casting what now and later.

For Arcane, Barrage/MBAM cycles are fun.
The issue is that cycle DPS and DPM is a massive failure and that they overtuned Blast spam and made it ultra cheap.

The destro lock also shouldn't have used Shadowbolt to maximise DPS, just saying.


2) Also half the raid gets the benefit of 2 Mana Spring Totems (a 42/tick resto and a 34/tick elemental) and half the raid doesn't.
That doesn't make sense at either.
Also, the spread of the mana returns be the Water Elemental make no sense.

I'd guess that replenish is similarly buggy.
What strikes me as odd is that 11 people got ~160 ticks and and 7 people + 2 pets + got ~80 ticks, and 2 temporary pets got some ticks.


Also, Fireball was ~74% of the mage's damage if you remove Ignite from the total damage done (or find a better way to split Ignite)
It would probably be about ~70% if you add the Living Bomb explosions that didn't happen because it's still centred on you.


I guess we'll just have to disagree on frost interactivity.
What's ticking me off more is making Sapphiron frost immune.
Not sure if that will stay, since frost is the DK main tank spec flavour, using frost damage as major abilities.

"But you have Frostfire Bolt!"
<Self-censored comment.>

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Bebado

i have a aswer to do.

Actualy is better nuke with fireball/living bomb + instant pyro on Hot streak.

But if we have certain that we will crit is better use frostfirebolt or fireball?

Ex: If u use your combustion u can think u will do 3 crits on 5 cast, in this ocasion the dps for frostfire bolt is better than fireball? or fireball do more dps on normal hit and on crit.

 

Xentropy

Without more info it's really hard to tell. The fire mage did use two mana gem charges to the frost mage's one, and also drank a mana pot, when the frost mage did not. It's possible the fire mage was staying higher on mana through consumable use while the frost mage was remaining lower on mana simply by not bothering to use consumables because he didn't feel he was in danger of running out. Basically the fire mage's mana bar may have been "jerkier", moving up and down past the "lowest on mana" line while the frost mage moved and stayed under it longer.

We definitely need to see more Replenishment in action though. It looks like they had three party members (a shadow priest, a hunter, and a DK) all providing Replenishment at various times during the fight. Who received whose buff is interesting in itself; we'll ignore the DK since they don't even get Replenishment (good catch). Everyone who received 161-166 ticks got them from Priz (hunter), so his Replenishment buff supposedly had a much greater uptime. There is then a tier of people in the 74-84 tick range who received their Replenishment buff from Wishes (shadow priest). Yet vampiric touch ticked 60 times, which at one tick per 3 seconds means it was up long enough to provide 180 ticks of Replenishment to the raid.

It seems very possible that the part of Replenishment logic that is supposed to reevaluate who to apply to every tick isn't occuring. The mechanic that is most consistent with that parse is that Replenishment checks for the ten people with the lowest mana and tries to apply to them. If already applied, it simply fails and doesn't find another target. Each refresh, it applies to those same ten people, without checking the entire raid for relative mana again. Thus, Priz proc'd Replenishment first. It applied to the ten people in the raid with the lowest mana at that time. That happened to include the arcane and frost mages but not the fire mage (perhaps he didn't open up quite as quickly). Very soon thereafter (while everyone's mana bars were still at the same relative levels) Wishes proc'd Replenishment. It tried to apply to the same ten people, but failed because they already had the buff. However, since the part of the buff that's supposed to find new targets is bugged, it kept trying and failing to apply to the same ten people. About 80 seconds later, something occurred (maybe Wishes let vampiric embrace drop for a moment between reapplications, so instead of simply refreshing it was actually a new instance of the buff) which caused Wishes's Replenishment to finally reevaluate who to apply to. At this time, the ten people (7 players and 3 pets) who'd been going all this time without Replenishment were lowest and started gaining ticks from Wishes.

It's only a theory, but it's consistent with the data we have. If someone could please watch for this sort of thing happening in raids, we can get it bug reported.

 

◊ Vontre

It's almost as if a single parse from a mediocre guild collaboration with buggy mechanics is utterly meaningless.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

Roywyn

P.S.: Death Knights cannot provide Replenishment


There's a lot of sh...stuff that doesn't even remotely make sense.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Nurru

Not to mention replenishment is 10 targets so a single Shadow Priest can easily keep the buff on his 10 man full time without even having to think about odd logistics like Xen tried to do.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Erdluf

That reads to me as if ten people get the repleneshment buff. The buff does not move to other targets every tick.

It doesn't say what happens if the raid members with the lowest mana already have the buff. Plausible choices:

• The search continues, looking for a raid member who doesn't already have the buff.
• The duration is extended.
• The new application fails (for that individual).
• Only one Replenish proc (10 people with the buff) can be active at once in the raid.

The bottom three choices are consistent (to varying degrees) with the idea of non-stacking raid buffs.

 

Lhivera

If the shatter combo on faux-proc 3 works reliably, yeah, it works out fine. If not, your missed casting time on the failures will pretty much negate any increase from the successes, and you'd be better off sticking with the Frostbolt spam. The main thing, though, is that the interactivity shouldn't depend upon exploiting latency; it should be designed into the talent. Switching back to a short timer is really the only way to do this properly.

Yes, the failure there isn't with the intended DPS process, it's with the one that actually works.

At level 60, that didn't matter much, since it's not really a DPS race. It's a "don't die and you win" fight, which is pretty much the only sort of fight where school immunities are OK in my book.


Yes, that could well explain it. Of course it presents an interesting problem with the new mechanic, which is that the spec that least needs the extra mana is going to be soaking up one of the replenishment charges each time it fires, especially toward the end of the fight when the people who may not have other Mana options open (already used their pot, mana gem used up) are running low again.


It's almost like that, but not quite. Macroscopically, it's meaningless. Microscopically, it's got some interesting bits and pieces to it.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

deadlyice

This is wrong, going invis with WE or MI up leaves you in combat (but fully invisible) until either they (WE or MIs) die/are dismissed/target is killed, but it does not remove invis while your pets are still in combat. Just tested it.

I will test this more to see if you can be "swapped" with your mirror image while invisible. I did notice my mirror image aura was still up while I was running around in Frodo's invisible realm, but I was not swapped at any time.

 

deadlyice

Speaking for Arcane, as long as the AB debuff lasts only 3 seconds, there is no reason to do anything but spam because of the cost of restacking. They must increase the duration of the debuff in order to make "weaving" viable. Reducing Missle Barrage back to a midway compromise between the 1.5-2.5 sec fluctuations would also increase desire to capitalize on it.

Arcane still needs some work. Frost is feeling extremely interactive premade on beta, however, in a raid situation I'm not sure what freeze procs are appearing on bosses affected by the various DK synergy (if any). If anything, damage for frost needs to be tweaked up a bit, just because frostbolts still dont appear to be scaling as well as the other specs.

Just two cents from the beta.

 

Tucker

I've asked this before and gotten no response, probably because no one knew, but now that we have at least one parse from a raid with some strange results on mana regen, I'm wondering again: Do the "raid-wide" buffs have a range? 100 yds, 200? If they do, then positioning may account for the odd/haphazard ticks of mana regen. Maybe some of those players moved out of range of the shadow priest or hunter during parts of the fight. I still think this is an important piece of information to know and will affect not only raid composition but placement during the boss fight.

 

Actovision

Patchwerk is not the kind of fight that especially rewards spreading out or movement of any kind so distance probably doesn't explain any weirdness. I think I heard that IWE was 100 yds, so that might go for all of auras.