Roywyn

Three things:
1) Potion sickness is still in game, just no visible debuff, from what I heard.
2) Did you use Evocation? And what fight length did you spread your base mana pool on, 6 minutes?
3) There's also 35-45 MPS (normal/improved) from BoW and Mana Spring, so that compensates for the lack of Pot Spam.

4) Awesome post, I'll put up a link to it when fix the old links.

Totem of Wrath - Spell - World of Warcraft

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Tucker

Okay, but the tooltips say for VT (30yds), Totems (20-40yds depending on totem), and Imp WE for mages (100yds- the best that I see) so unless Blizz does a reversal of fight mechanics from BC where many fights encourage/force you to spread out, raid composition and fight placement will be a big issue in my mind. We keep talking as if everyone in the raid will receive these buffs and I don't think we can assume that for many fights and in the spreadsheets and calculations that folks are working so hard on.

 

grayrest

1) Ah, I was under the impression that it was out.
2) This is JUST regeneration. I do not include base mana or evocation because both depend on fight length. I prefer using this number because it's fairly easy to subtract cycle cost from regen and get a time to OOM.

I'll update that post to take out potions and put in BoW/Mana Spring. Last I'd heard, Mana Spring was stacking in party and one went to the raid. Anybody know offhand if this is still the case and if so, does the strongest go to the raid?

 

Actovision

For calculations and spreadsheets ideal conditions are always assumed unless you or the author specifically state the conditions. When was the last time you changed the VT estimate on a spreadsheet because it might not have 100% uptime? Not to mention the fact that VT's base cast range is 30 yds, its effect range is much larger. The "spreadsheets and calculations folks are working so hard on" have always assumed ideal conditions and that won't change because its the most accurate way to theorycraft. Ceteris paribus, theorycraft not practicalcraft, etc.

 

Roywyn

2) Ah, makes sense. Just wasn't sure how you handled it.

3) I remember reading something like that too. But the patchwerk parse and the killshot imply that they stack and are party-only right now.
So, uh, not sure what should be taken as standard there Just chose
ImageShack - Hosting :: patch25manbd6.jpg

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

CHeeSY-CrAfT

Oh by the way, Totem of Wrath was listed as giving 280 spell damage when we went to Naxx, not 160. Also, did you find any relative values for spirit as an arcane mage in comparison to spell damage?

 

◊ manly

Ok well this isn't productive or anything, but I think its still worth reposting due to the sheer gravity.

WoW Forums -> To Devs: An Open Letter
WoW Forums -> Tons of spirit on the Naxx balance gear
WoW Forums -> Tons of spirit on the Naxx balance gear

Log on with different model:
1- Create a character of the desired model. Log on/off.
2- At character selection screen, select your actual character; mouseover the new, desired model character, and hold down left click; hit enter and release left click at the same time.
bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Roywyn

Well, spirit is just extra mana right now.
To find a value for it, you'd need to say what your alternative to Blast spam is.
What you do with the excess mana.

Right now, you'll pop mage armour, gems, pot, evo and you should last through the fight.
Spirit doesn't change that much. Intellect actually gives you a lot more mana back via pool/evo/jow/rep.

You can probably assign some value to it even now, if you knew exactly what do do when you're low on/out of mana.
There is just nothing natural to do for arcane really.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Pheroz

It seems that they think if we don't have a choice except to take spirit, it will have value. Obviously, they're planning on nerfing other mana regen so we'll have to pay attention to our mana, but there has to be a measurable return for having more spirit.

Basically, with what they're suggesting, we're left with: guess the fight length, pick mage or molten armor and hope your right. Maybe if you get several upgrades and your spirit goes up a bunch, you'll be able to weave in an extra living bomb.

That's horrible. They need to do a lot more then just innundating us with spirit and nerfing the current sources of mana regen (chainpotting/shadowpriests) before Spirit becomes 'desired'. Especially since they designed repleneshment so Intellect is a huge determinant in mana regen.

 

◊ Vontre

Or maybe everybody will spec ice with MoE and stack spell damage to high heaven.

This is probably what will happen, since in a low mana environment efficiency trumps everything, and spell damage increases efficiency more than spirit or intellect.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

PSGarak

Apparently the next hardcore mage pass is in the planning stages. Ghostcrawler just opened up three new threads in beta asking for directed feedback for each of the trees. If nothing else, this confirms that you're far-from-done (as opposed to just unpolished). Start hammering out essays on the viability of spirit in each of the three trees, and the necessity of mana-dumps to have any sort of not-boring interaction with the Blue Bar.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...erks/Garak.png

 

arch

WoW Forums -> Blue Responsiveness to Mages...


They are also requesting feedback for every mage tree. This is the time beta testers, let them know about ignite bugs, spirit, AB debuffs and whatnot!

EDIT: Could someone maybe suggest that they add fire blast to hot streak rampup? Would help PvP viability a bit by synergizing nicely with Glyph of Fire Blast
Glyph of Fire Blast - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

 

Celani

Going to have to disagree with blue on this one. Despite the DPS casters forgoing regen stats, using VT for regen and gearing for straight up DPS, the caster DPS as a whole was far behind their physical DPS counterparts; even locks were behind rogues and hunters at the end. Whether blue "got away from it" or not, is irrelevant. Without VT mana and DPS stats stacked, casters would have been absolute garbage in TBC across the board. You don't and you won't see hunters, enhancement shaman, and ret paladins gemming for regen/MP5. They'll gear like warriors and rogues do, for max DPS stats, because as of today's ret paladin judgement hotfix, that's all they'll have to do. This "mana management skill requirement" is for DPS casters and healers only.

Two things they can do: allow spirit scaling of DPS in some way on mage armor (2% haste or something like that), or make sure both fire and frost trees have a reliable mana dump like Arcane Blast. Looks like fire is on the right track with Living Bomb (LB on cooldown beats the heck out of 3% crit, but you have to use mage armor to even think about using it). However, frost will currently end all fights with a full mana bar and no use for spirit at all, which could lead to the DPS stat stacking as indicated.

 

Pheroz

Making mana management part of the game is fine, and doesn't necessitate casters being behind Non-mana-using DPS.

But it has to come down to in combat choices. It can't be only about gearing and raid/group compisition. The closest I can think of is the pre 2.4 arcane blast rotations. Back when you had your AB spam burn and a 3AB filler rotation, and had to choose between mana conserve and burn mode, that was a situtation where mana management had some tangible impact on play decisions.

Taking away the mana costs on our armors would be a start. Losing a GCD is probably punishment enough for having to switch armors as the result of a mana decision. I remember times when my guild was just starting out raiding when I would use Mage armor, solely becuase I couldn't count on my Shadow priest to stay alive and I would be fine with Molten if and only if he could avoid Spout.

But for mana management to work well in WotLK, it's going to fall into one of two categories. Either we're going to be gearing and managing our mana to make sure we make it through the fight. OR we're going to be gearing managing our mana for ways to do even higher DPS. One of those is fun, the other, not so much.

 

Searix

Deleted.

 

PsyBomb

Something I've been considering for a while, since the Imp. Scorch debuff and the Winter's Chill debuff are now identical, perhaps it would be better if Blizz made both talents simply apply a debuff called "Mystic Vulnerability" or some such. This would allow the debuff to stack up quick, while not having to worry about a 3-stack of Winter's Chill keeping a Glyphed Imp. Scorch from applying anything.

Any other thoughts here? It seems the quickest way to fix the issue.

To teach and to learn, to laugh and make others laugh. This is my purpose, and any day in which I don't wasn't worth the time it took to get through.

 

Jarlyn

It was mentioned by Manly in the Fire tree thread, but I'd like to see some further debate on the feedback threads about what a horrendously bad spell FFB is right now. The issue of PvP RNG is talked about a good bit with Frost, but really it's applicable in every tree. Arcane gets it from Clearcasting/Arcane Potency/MBarr and a big one in the resistances granted by Mage Armor/Magic Absorption. Not that Fire matters much from a PvP perspective, but Impact/Blazing Speed are pretty subject to RNG as well. Would like to see a bit more talk of that as well.

 

Wueste

I did some tests with the new tailoring enchant for cloaks: Lightweave Embroidery - Spell - World of Warcraft

Test 1: Scorchspam - Proccs: 0:15 / 01:01 / 01:47 / 02:33 / 03:19



Test 2: Scorchspam - Proccs: 00:08 / 00:59 / 01:45 / 02:35



Test 3: Scorchspam - Proccs: 00:04 / 00:49 / 01:34 / 02:19 / 03:04



Internal cooldown seems to be 45 seconds

 

Wueste

If they merge the debuffs, they would have the same duration. Scorch can't be decreased to 15 seconds, so winterschill would be 30 seconds. I don't know if this would be to good.

 

JonIrenicus

Any idea if this extra holy damage crits? If not it works out to be a Static 20 dps increase, assuming it procced every 45s like clockwork. Nice random burst for pvp but not worth keeping tailoring for on its own compared to an extra rune slot I think, even with crits (at least for pve dps).

 

Wueste

Yes it can crit. You can see it in picture 1 of test 2.

Yesterday we cleared Naxx 10 for the second time.

stasiscl - Google Code is to complicated for me, but perhaps anybody with enough skill would like to use my combatlog from patchwerk: http://golfer.oedland.net/wueste/patchwerk.rar

This time our shadow didn't use Vampiric Touch - Spell - World of Warcraft, so the we got the full benefit from the Retri Paladin's Replenishment - Spell - World of Warcraft.

I was deep fire, did LB nearly every time it dropped (I didn't play perfect), pyroblast on procc. I had enough mana with molten armor and I only used 1 managem during the fight, no mana potion, no evocation.

We had an unholy deathknight, two shaman (elemental and resto) and a shadow priest. Judgement of Wisdom - Spell - World of Warcraft was on patchwerk. (Glyphe of Blessing of Might issn't any longer bugged)

 

Axira

That enchant seems to be only mediocre though, if you'd compare it against Enchant Cloak - Haste - Spell - World of Warcraft.
If my calculations are correct you'd need an average DPS of merely 3000 for the haste enchant to become better.

Seems a bit like a wasted "unique" crafter ability.

 

maxi

My largest concern now is the perceived necessity of having and wearing 2xt5 to be the best you can be in wotlk raids.

According to Roywyn's numbers, it is worth half a thousand dps. At the same time, i don't see any way for me to ever get my hands on it (short of going on gimmick t5 raids at 80).

I am positive this issue is being discussed on beta forums already, but i just want to stress it again.
I do not want to have to wear t5 gear in Naxx.

 

Celani

I agree here about winter's chill duration; 30 seconds when it can be applied by any frost spell in the arsenal compared to 30 seconds that is applied by a lower DPS spell isn't that balanced. Even so, this should never be an issue on a raid encounter. If you're running as fire (or arcane with scorch support in your build), and you're running with a frost mage, don't scorch unless the frost mage dies. Problem solved. Going an extra 5 seconds on start up without a full stack is a negligible loss--the DPS gain of not having to cast scorch more than covers it.

 

Lileith

Wonder If someone can post this on my behalf on the Frost feedback topic? I only have acces to the european forum.


Frostbolt damage double taxed by resist?

This was pointed a week ago on this forum but it seems that Frostbolt is currently affected twice by frost resistance. Test done on a frost resistant elemental showed that Frostbolt was affected as a binary spell (fully resisted even at
hit cap) and affected by partial resistance.
When nuking a 30% average resist mob, I should expect 30% full resist on the snare effect , and 30% average reduction on damage due to partial resist. Currently it's 30% full resist on the whole frostbolt, and the frostbolt hit are affected by another 30% damage reduction. For an overall of 0.7*0.7= 51% reduction.

Frostbolt spell power coefficient

Now that Frostbolt is no longer binary I should'nt be affected by the 5% spell damage tax from the snare effect (thesame thing was done to Mind flay)

Blizzard , and AOE in general.

I like the 85% snare blizzard a lot, allowing it to crit (thus benefiting from shatter) makes this spell a lot better. But we still have a problem regarding aoe damage cap limitation. It was said that damage cap limitation was added to prevent abuse in unintended situation. While I agree that I should'nt be able to do full damage when I'm killing the whole Scarlet Monastery in one pull, I actually find myself hiting the damage cap in situation such as Magister Terrace or Hyjal Summit where I'm not feeling doing anything "unintended".

Suggestion:
Overall I don't think the AOE damage cap should be a "damage" cap, as It currently works, increasing spell damage doesn't increase the damage cap and it's wrong. It should be a number of target cap, but not the way Thunderclap works, If you intend us to aoe 10 targets, then if we are hiting from 1 to 10 target damage shouldn't be affected. Once we are hiting 11 target, damage from each target is mutiplied by 10/11 and so on, 10/20 for 20 target etc...
It just end up setting the aoe cap to 10*onetargetdamage instead of a fixed value which doesn't scale.

RNG, Finger of Frost and Brain Freeze

I love Finger of Frost the way it is, even if it was complained that making it charge based wouldn't incite us to use anything else than frostbolt in pve. Currently you can do Frostbolt Frostbolt Icelance/Deepfreeze using twice the second charge which is fine for pve while having a long enough duration for pvp to allow some kind of planning or "save for later".

Brain Freeze is also a nice ability which allow us to dps on the run, but I agree with other players that adding an other RNG based ability (other than Finger of Frost) makes the tree too much based on procs and chance.

Suggestion:
Makes Brain Freeze:
Each time you cast a frost spell the casting time of your next fireball is reduced by 0,5 seconds and it's mana cost by 15%, stack up to 7 times last 10 seconds.

That way it wouldn't be random anymore, it would create real rotation for frost dps (instead of just reacting to procs) and would synergies with the Fire tree (because with an additional 0.5 seconds reduction on fireball they would have to cast one less frost spell before reaching 1.5 sec cast for pve or instant cast for pvp).

Downranking

Downranking mainly affect pvp, I won't comment on the impact on the loss of rk1 sheep and frostnova because I kinda agree with the change (even If I think we need a better way to regen mana or a better efficiency in arena). My main concern is rk1 frostbolt for kiting, we really need a quick and cheap way to snare a target, but it doesn't have to be as mana efficient as rk1 frostbolt is currently.

Suggestion:

Either:
Give us a lesser frostbolt 1.5 sec base cast time (affected by Improved Frostbolt) does 0 damage (won't trigger Finger of Frost/frostbite that way) for a cost of around 70-100 mana at 70.

Give us a glyph:
Glyph of lesser frostbolt (Minor) : Your rank1 frostbolt damage is reduced by 100% and its mana cost by 80%.

Make slow baseline, doesn't affect ranged attack and casting speed anymore (give arcane a talent that add the lost effects) lower mana cost a lot , and make it affected by Permafrost/Chilled to the Bone.

Glyph of Frostbolt

The removal of the snare on Frostbolt is wrong, it's way way too much for a 5% damage increase and kill the "spirit" of the Frost mage.

Suggestion:
Make it reduce the snare duration by 2/3 seconds instead of completly removing it.

Deep Freeze

I love it, don't change anything

Water Elemental

The Water Elemental should have a higher survability. It should be given the ae avoidance skill the other pets get.
It should also scale a lot more with our other dps stats such as crit rating hit rating and haste.

Spirit

Currently there is no point in taking any spirit for a frost spec,

Suggestion:

Give us a baseline 30% spirit regeneration while casting (remove the one on Mage armor and put something else instead).

or

Remove Frozen Core and add a spirit based dps talent instead.

or

Allow us to chose between 2 class sets (one without spirit) and make sure every piece of dps can be switched with one without spirit by using a Sunmote-Swap like system.

Frost Armor

I think it need something new (maybe a dps increasing tool added)