WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 6

kadgar · 08/20/08, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by manly

mana list

I did some Excel with theese values:

 
Spell                    %  mana cast %/sec mana/sec mp5
Arcane Blast           40%  1184  2,5  16,0%   474  2368
Arcane Blast 3stacks  130%  3848  2,5  52,0%  1539  7696
Arcane Barrage         18%   522  1,5  12,0%   348  1740
Fireblast              21%   621  1,5  14,0%   414  2070
Fireball               21%   621  3,0   7,0%   207  1035
Frostfire Bolt         16%   473  3,0   5,3%   158   788
Scorch                  8%   236  1,5   5,3%   157   787
Frostbolt              15%   444  2,5   6,0%   178   888
Ice Lance               7%   207  1,5   4,7%   138   690
Deep Freeze             8%   236  1,5   5,3%   157   787
          
Shadowbolt             17%   503  2,5   6,8%   201  1006

             
Arcane Explosion       25%   725  1,5  16,7%   483  2417
Arcane Missiles        34%  1006  5,0   6,8%   201  1006
Focus Magic                  535  1,5          357  1783
Mana Shield             7%   207  1,5   4,7%   138   690
Polymorph              12%   355  1,5   8,0%   237  1183
Slow                   20%   592  1,5  13,3%   395  1973
Spellsteal             20%   592  1,5  13,3%   395  1973
Remove Curse            8%   236  1,5   5,3%   157   787
Blink                  21%   620  1,5  14,0%   413  2067
Counterspell            9%   266  1,5   6,0%   177   887
Invisibility           16%   473  1,5  10,7%   315  1577

             
Flamestrike            53%  1568  3,0  17,7%   523  2613
Blastwave              28%   828  1,5  18,7%   552  2760
Dragon's Breath        31%   917  1,5  20,7%   611  3057
Living Bomb            31%  1095  1,5  20,7%   730  3650
Pyroblast              22%   651  5,0   4,4%   130   651

             
Blizzard               74%  2190  8,0   9,3%   274  1369
Cone of Cold           29%   858  1,5  19,3%   572  2860
Frostnova               8%   236  1,5   5,3%   157   787
Ice Barrier            25%   740  1,5  16,7%   493  2467
Water Elemental        16%   473  1,5  10,7%   315  1577

Shadowbolt is only minimal cheaper than Fireball.
Frostfire Bolt suprisingly cheap.
Arcane Blast stacked 7696 mp5

Lhivera · 08/20/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

I don't challenge any change to a more mana-intensive environment; interacting with the mana-bar rather than setting the group so as to ignore it is definitely more interesting. What puzzles me, however, is the Shadowbolt change.

Before the mana-cost changes, SB was way more expensive and this cost-hike was put down to roughly the same cost as it would have, just taking into account the new 30% regen in Wrath. Fine. Then it drops to the floor? Coupled with the excellent doubling of Dark Pact's effect.

At level 70, base mana:

Mage: 2241 = Fireball cost of 0.21 * 2241 = 471 (up from 425)
Warlock: 2615 = Shadow Bolt cost of 0.17 * 445 (up from 420)

I think these numbers are still likely to see some tuning.

Originally Posted by RpgWizard

You basically have several situations:

2) You balance ALL Mages around 30% regen - Then Mages with 18 in arcane never worry about mana or use Molten armor for increased DPS or spec differently in order to gain a DPS advantage over other classes/specs that have mana problems

This is what they're doing, I think. The assumption is that every Mage is using Mage Armor, and Arcane Mages (who burn mana at a higher rate) have the extra regen from Meditation because they need it. Molten armor is intended as a PvP armor, and if we manage to use it on some fights in some raid configurations, then hooray for us, we get 3% more crit than expected.

I don't think this is optimal or even correct, but I do think this is what they're thinking.

Rifk · 08/20/08, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

This is what they're doing, I think. The assumption is that every Mage is using Mage Armor, and Arcane Mages (who burn mana at a higher rate) have the extra regen from Meditation because they need it. Molten armor is intended as a PvP armor, and if we manage to use it on some fights in some raid configurations, then hooray for us, we get 3% more crit than expected.

I don't think this is optimal or even correct, but I do think this is what they're thinking.

Makes you wish that there was more conversation between the Dev's and the players... Too bad they can't host chat sessions once every other week for an hour or so.

Leialyn · 08/20/08, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by RpgWizard

Either you balance around Mage Armor and anytime a mage can use Molten Armor is an unintended DPS increase. If you balance around Molten Armor, if the Mage is have mana problems, he is performing way under intended DPS while using Mage armor.

Either way, 60% mana regen is a ridiculous value to balance around, forcing all Mages to spend 18 points in Arcane in all specs. Can we say Pre-Mage class review?

I just don't see why a class that was relying purely on stamina/int basestats and never worried about spirit because they can get mana for "free" (and not forget improved Soul Leech scaling with damage gear) gets the best PvE armor that improves their damage output and gives them 30% incombat reg...

The current Fel Armor description says this:
"Surrounds the caster with fel energy, increasing spell power by 180 plus additional spell power equal to 30% of your Spirit. In addition, allows 30% of your mana regeneration to continue while casting."

So they have
- Spelldamage that scales far better with most spells than crit
- a talent to further improve the damage on the armor
- scaling with gear
- 30% incombat mana regen

Even if we combine the current Mage/Molten armors, there is no chance they can compete with this... Fel Armor has all the offensive stats and Demon Armor all the defensive while offensive and defensive stats are spread throughout all 3 of the mages armors.
Mage/Molten armor just need to be changed... I already started a post on Beta Forums but I guess no one is reading EU Forums anyway.

But however, here is what I suggested:
- Molten Armor becomes the new PvE Armor: 3% more Crit +crit rating equal to 30% of spirit, 30% of Manareg incombat.
- Mage Armor becomes the new PvP Armor: +X resistance, -5% crit incoming and 50% shorter magic debuff duration.

I really don't care about PvP anyways, they can do whatever they want with the damage on melee hit, in PvE it mostly kills sheeps.
And well if they are already onto it, they should change the improved Molten Armor Talent to something that improves its crit rating or better: its manareg.

◊ manly · 08/20/08, 12:34 PM

As I pointed out in the beta threads, you can't rework existing armors. What you want is a new armor if you're to make a PVE armor. If you do what you listed, you cut the option of using molten armor damageback/impact.

◊ manly · 08/20/08, 12:50 PM

Yes kadgar, your conclusion somewhat matches mine. I pointed it out in the BB. Basically there are 3 major data points in the new mana costs that ought to raise some eyebrows.

1- FFB mana cost is fairly cheap
2- Shadowbolt wtf
3- Arcane Blast is in for a major revamp I guess ?

I did, however, take into account mana reducing talents when comparing spells. Which make FFB even more 'such a good deal'. If I were you I'd probably include one column for every major spec, and write the expected mana cost (assume 40-50% crit rate for moe mana returns I guess).

Leialyn · 08/20/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by manly

As I pointed out in the beta threads, you can't rework existing armors. What you want is a new armor if you're to make a PVE armor. If you do what you listed, you cut the option of using molten armor damageback/impact.

Whoever _really_ uses the damageback? Maybe for impact but in PvE I would like Manareg > Impact and for PvP Ice Armor is used for Frostbite Procs.
And anyways, Fel Armor was reworked as well oO ... minus the 20% more healing, they are on demon armor now, plus 30% manareg incombat... I don't see the point of not splitting defensive and offensive stats as well for mages.
The only PvE use of the "old" current Mage Armors resistance is Arcane spec with Magic Absorption.

Lhivera · 08/20/08, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by Leialyn

Whoever _really_ uses the damageback? Maybe for impact but in PvE I would like Manareg > Impact and for PvP Ice Armor is used for Frostbite Procs.

I'm pretty sure the damage back and its impact procs are pretty desirable for Fire Mages in PvP. (Hah, you say, there aren't any! Well, yes, but they're trying to change that, and having a PvP armor that synergizes with their talents is pretty important to succeeding.)

Lons · 08/20/08, 2:40 PM

So, I guess 18 Arcane is going to be a requirement to actually raid. Depending on having X class in a raid and it actually going to the mages for another entire expansion as a bench mark as to what our mama regen will be unless we are speced 18 arcane is a depressing thought.

Forgive me if this was explained in better detail somewhere here and I am completly missing the bus on this next part but:

Am I understanding with the whole down ranking thing that I lose damage on a spell that I got just because I leveled and there isn't another one to put on my bar? Because if that is the case that is just retarded. I mean we get the last rank of Fireball at 78, are you telling me it will actually lose 2 levels worth of damage because I level on to 80? How is this even close to fair to the player?

And I'm sorry that whomever it was didn't think that we already had to juggle mana blue bar enough and wants even more constrictions on how we play by making us either take 18 in arcane or piggy bank some Regen from a W/E pet. As someone that loves the play style of fire and is looking at the dumbed down way they are handling gear this next expansion I'm gonna be seeing a lot more spirit on gear that will do absolutely nothing for my spec.

Again, sorry if I am missing some huge disparity in logic here guys, but it just seems like more of the same crap with even more stupidity by punishing us for leveling up and using max ranks but losing damage with still no way for anyone but an arcane mage to take anything from spirit.

mako · 08/20/08, 2:45 PM

The expectation seems to be 30% combat regen. As fire this means you could waste 18 points in arcane, or cast mage armor.

Spell level penalty does not apply the moment you are 1 level higher than the spell. There's a threshold before the penalties take place (I want to say 5 levels, but I am not certain). So at level 80, your level 78 Fireball spell will do it's full damage.

Leialyn · 08/20/08, 2:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

I'm pretty sure the damage back and its impact procs are pretty desirable for Fire Mages in PvP. (Hah, you say, there aren't any! Well, yes, but they're trying to change that, and having a PvP armor that synergizes with their talents is pretty important to succeeding.)

Sure they are trying but then lets put the damageback on Ice Armor or Frostfire Armor or whatever they want.

Lhivera · 08/20/08, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lons

So, I guess 18 Arcane is going to be a requirement to actually raid. Depending on having X class in a raid and it actually going to the mages for another entire expansion as a bench mark as to what our mama regen will be unless we are speced 18 arcane is a depressing thought.

No, I don't think that's the case. Worst-case scenario, Mage Armor is required to raid. Arcane Mages have a higher burn rate than Fire and Frost Mages, so the extra regen they get in their own tree is probably necessary to them. But a Fire Mage compensates with higher efficiency spells and Master of Elements (Burnout only neutralizes 1/6 of that mana return), and a Frost Mage compensates -- hell, overcompensates, rather dramatically -- with higher efficiency spells and Brain Freeze.

Am I understanding with the whole down ranking thing that I lose damage on a spell that I got just because I leveled and there isn't another one to put on my bar? Because if that is the case that is just retarded. I mean we get the last rank of Fireball at 78, are you telling me it will actually lose 2 levels worth of damage because I level on to 80? How is this even close to fair to the player?

No, that's backwards. Downranking doesn't affect the base damage of a spell at all. It does affect the coefficient of a spell, but only after you've leveled past the next rank. The base damage of spells does, however, increase as you level up. They've always done that.

Lons · 08/20/08, 3:06 PM

OK, was just a misunderstanding as I saw someone remark how they had lost 20% of AM because they had out leveled it before the next one came up earlier in the thread and was very concerned. And making Mage Armor the only pve choice seems a bit silly since molten armor is the bread and butter of fire mages currently and they don't seem to be in a huge hurry to change up the armors or implement new ones that would better serve the purpose.

Fore once I would love to see the attention to detail that the warlocks get in that department.

JonIrenicus · 08/20/08, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by kadgar

I did some Excel with theese values:

Shadowbolt is only minimal cheaper than Fireball.
Frostfire Bolt suprisingly cheap.
Arcane Blast stacked 7696 mp5

I cannot imagine the current mana cost on arcane blast will stay there. I suspect that is the 1k mana is closer to the 3stack total than a single stack.

So lets treat the mana cost on arcane blast as a bug at the moment.

Remember the base cost at 70 was in the 200s, no other spell that I know of got a 4-5 orders of magnitude increase in base cost.

I could be wrong on this, but if sanity prevails, I am not.

Nurru · 08/20/08, 4:12 PM

Resolving AB's mana cost doesn't resolve the issue that you outright need haste and pushback resistance to maintain it stacked. It's in a very odd place right now.

JocktheMotie · 08/20/08, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

Resolving AB's mana cost doesn't resolve the issue that you outright need haste and pushback resistance to maintain it stacked. It's in a very odd place right now.

I think when it comes to certain abilities that have us scratching our heads as to why they are designed the way they are, it may be that Glyphs are going to fill the holes in the logic. I can definitely see an Arcane Blast Glyph being applied that extends the debuff to a more manageable time, or makes AB immune to pushback, or something of that nature.

I remember reading that ability inscriptions will be pretty significant in terms of changing abilities, I recall a Blizzard designer explaining that a Glyph may be applied to Pyroblast, giving it a 3 second cast but a 25s cooldown. If changes like that are the norm for some of the abilities, it could lead to some answers.

However designing a class based on what spell inscriptions one might have seems like a bad idea.

JonIrenicus · 08/20/08, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

Resolving AB's mana cost doesn't resolve the issue that you outright need haste and pushback resistance to maintain it stacked. It's in a very odd place right now.

Yes, for some reason the only spec that the devs seem to want to gift pushback resistance to on their Main nuke is fire. Arcane missiles does not count since its like hitting the boss with confetti.

a Glyph increasing the duration of the buff by 50% would help a great deal, and allow the arcane mage to work in arcane barrage without penalty. That capacity would sort of make up for high pushback, but pushback resistance is still too useful to just write off.

Thegoodman · 08/20/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by JocktheMotie

However designing a class based on what spell inscriptions one might have seems like a bad idea.

Would you have said "Designing a class based on what gems one might have seems like a bad idea." pre-BC? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, without Gem slots, many classes would be drastically different and not nearly as powerful. It is possible that Spell Inscriptions will have the same effects.

Imagine a Rogue or Warlock without Hit gems or a tank w/o Stamina gems. The success of many PvE and PvP specs hinges on the strategic use of gems. Why not give the same advantage to strategic spell inscription usage? Its true they are not exactly the same thing, but without knowing that different inscriptions available to us, its impossible for us to judge if a spell is broken or not.

solbergb · 08/20/08, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

I'm pretty sure the damage back and its impact procs are pretty desirable for Fire Mages in PvP. (Hah, you say, there aren't any!

Actually there are plenty in the battlegrounds, and yes, we like our impact and molten armor and molten shields. They have a tremendous impact as a set on being viable without all the deep frost tricks, and dragon breath is as good at disrupting stuff in battlegrounds as it is for recovering a bad PVE situation.

You don't see them in arena in ratings > 1500 , but then you don't see many mages in arena S4 at all with good ratings these days. There are a few comps where mages work. Sub 1500, where I live, my fire build performs as well or better than frost mages who play as badly as I do. (I'm 3-1 when it's me and the enemy frost mage left standing, a terrible sample size but whatever)

Impact/molten shields is also popular while leveling, which we'll be doing a bit of in Lich King.

PsyBomb · 08/20/08, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Thegoodman

Would you have said "Designing a class based on what gems one might have seems like a bad idea." pre-BC? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, w/o Gem slots, many classes would be drastically different and not nearly as powerful. It is possible that Spell Inscriptions will have the same effects.

Imagine a Rogue or Warlock w/o Hit gems or a tank w/o Stamina gems. The success of many PvE and PvP specs hinges on the strategic use of gems. Why not give the same advantage to strategic spell inscription usage? Its true they are not exactly the same thing, but w/o knowing that different inscriptions available to us, its impossible for us to judge if a spell is broken or not.

To be honest, this argument is even more valid than you're saying. Blizzard has explicitly stated that Inscriptions are supposed to be around the power of 1-2 talent points. Think of your 6 Inscription sockets as about 6-8 talent points that cannot be used in the same talent. Once we see what the Mage Inscriptions look like, everything WILL change. I'm all for the theorycraft now in case Mage glyphs end up like Priest ones, but I'm not making any spec decisions until I have all of the information, or at least much more than we have now.

Jarlyn · 08/20/08, 5:31 PM

FWIW, the mana regen aspect of spirit is of little concern to me. I expect to be using Molten Armor the majority of the time, and if they are going to start making only one set of DPS cloth, I'd hope to be given a reason for having spirit force-fed to me on all my gear. And it doesn't need to be mana regen - I'd like to gain some actual DPS from spirit.

Personally I would like to see our existing armors reworked, but if that's not feasible, then sure, add a Frostfire armor or whatever else you want.

Lhivera · 08/20/08, 6:01 PM

I was thinking something like this for Fire and Frost:

Fire: Replace either Firestarter or Hot Streak with a talent that converts a percentage of Spirit to Hit Rating and Crit Rating. Thus you both reduce the deep Fire concern over having to go 8 into Frost for increased hit, and you gain a DPS benefit from Spirit.

Frost: Replace Frozen Core with a talent that converts Spirit to Spell Power. Move it deeper, possibly swapping places with Brain Freeze and reducing Brain Freeze's proc rate from 15 to 10% to compensate for the increased accessibility.

solbergb · 08/20/08, 6:29 PM

Originally Posted by Jarlyn

FWIW, the mana regen aspect of spirit is of little concern to me. I expect to be using Molten Armor the majority of the time

In PVE I already switch to mage armor if I judge the mana situation to be the limiting factor. Mostly AOE situations but not always. Just depends the fight, and whether or not the raid is tossing mana in my direction. For both my PVP and PVE talent specs, molten armor is best most PVE fights and all PVP, because most fights just don't take that long. For running through a dangerous area without intending to fight, frost armor is usually best for the chill+permafrost effect slowing pursuers.

I actually don't have a problem with the % of fights with mage armor being helpful changing. If it becomes significantly more frequent, getting some spirit on the "raid suit" isn't that big a deal, it will be similar to how spell hit works today. (I've got a big wad of it on a couple pieces that I swap in for boss fights, and swap out for more stam/spell damage the rest of the time)

It's pretty easy to calculate what % of "out of mana" time you need to make mage armor better than molten armor. Do the math, switch accordingly. It's not like we have to respec to use it.

Joink · 08/20/08, 7:48 PM

Not sure if this has been posted but ice barrier gains ~80% spell power bonus towards absorbed damage. With 1275 spell power I absorbed 3858dmg at lvl 77. seems like a lot, further making frost the pvp spec of choice for mages.

JonIrenicus · 08/20/08, 7:54 PM

Uh oh, seems some devs may think mages are doing too much damage already

"by a factor of 2"

.....

IGN: World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Preview

They mention other classes as well, but this article is mildly scary. Not sure I trust their dps testers.