WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 66

Xentropy · 09/18/08, 6:37 AM

T7 set bonuses are out:

Mage:
(2) Set: You gain 40% more mana when you use a mana gem. In addition, using a mana gem grants you 225 spell power for 15 sec.
(4) Set: Your offensive spells gain an additional 5% increased critical strike damage.

4pT7 plus CSD would result in the following crits:

School: Crit damage (old with just CSD)
Frost: 224% (209%)
Fire: 270.2% (254.45%)
Frostfire (burnout + ice shards): 357% (330.75%)
Arcane: 193% (181.75%)

maxi · 09/18/08, 6:49 AM

I don't get the Focus Magic tbh.
It is an inferior buff to Elemental Oath, with occasional +1% crit to mage.
Nice for 5 mans, okayish for 10 mans, but only really worth 1% crit in 25s.

Are we sure it is grouped with elemental oath and not with Totem of Wrath though?

Come to think of it, i don't even remember reading which buff/debuff group ToW will belong to. Any light on this?

Roywyn · 09/18/08, 6:53 AM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

T7 set bonuses are out:

Mage:
(2) Set: You gain 40% more mana when you use a mana gem. In addition, using a mana gem grants you 225 spell power for 15 sec.
(4) Set: Your offensive spells gain an additional 5% increased critical strike damage.

4pT7 plus CSD would result in the following crits:

School: Crit damage (old with just CSD)
Frost: 224% (209%)
Fire: 270.2% (254.45%)
Frostfire (burnout + ice shards): 357% (330.75%)
Arcane: 193% (181.75%)

Does anyone on Beta have the 4/5T7 bonus and can confirm the numbers, say by using Arcane Missiles untalented and with 2/2 Spell Power?

I've had crit damage hard wired in my sheets so far and I don't want to change everyhting around everytime something changed.
"Elemental Oath and back" comes to mind and still haunts me.

Xentropy · 09/18/08, 7:34 AM

Okay finally logged in and noted the following previously unmentioned changes/bugfixes, or confirmed assumptions:

* Cold as Ice no longer lowers the cooldown of Ice Block. Back to 4-minute instead of 3-minute iceblocks for deep frost.
* Frostbite and FoF are procing together every time with 3/3 Frostbite and 2/2 Fingers of Frost.
* Frostbite and FoF can still proc on Glyphed Frostbolts despite no chill effect being applied.
* Molten Armor procs are still burning FoF charges.
* It is still possible to exploit latency mechanics to get two uses out of the second FoF charge.

On a slightly separate note, one thing I haven't seen mentioned here, but was true before this build and continues to be true now: Trying to eat mana pies twice in under a minute still tells you the item is "not ready yet". Basically food/water combos (haven't tested other foods or waters yet) put more food/water on a hidden 60-second cooldown. This is pretty annoying given in a chain-pulling situation in Live I find myself frequently sitting to get one tick out of my water here and there...basically using mana pies when you're not going to sit all the way to 100% isn't really feasible now.

Most importantly, since I just ran into this:
* The bug from the previous build with FoF appearing to grant just one charge is still in effect. For me, Frostfire bolt procing FoF results in the FFB itself burning one of the two charges immediately. The same may be true of non-glyphed Frostbolts (it was last build), but I am loathe to remove my glyph to confirm because they are very difficult to get ahold of for testing.

Timeline:
Open with FFB (for chill effect, since my frostbolt is glyphed). FoF procs when the FFB leaves my hands, target is afflicted with Frostbite when FFB hits it.
Cast Frostbolt. FoF fades the moment it leaves my hands.

Combat log in-game:
03:35:05> [Your] [Fingers of Frost] applied [You]. -- This is where my opening FFB left my hands.
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostfire Bolt] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostfire Bolt] hit [Fern Feeder Moth] 1838 Frostfire.
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostbite] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:07> [Your] [Winter's Chill] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:07> [Your] [Fingers of Frost] faded [You]. -- This is where the followup FrB left my hands.

Rest isn't relevant. I lost FoF after just casting one more spell after the FFB that proc'd it. Pretty big bug, I'm reporting in-game as well as cross-posting this on the official forum.

Sengiratolom · 09/18/08, 7:44 AM

Not that it'd matter much, but how does SCB work together with 10man t7?

Scenario 1: 1.65 times normal mana gain + 450 spellpower for 15sec
Scenario 2: 1.25*1.4=1.75 times normal mana gain and 450 spellpower for 15sec
Scenario 3: they dont work together

If scenario 2 is the way they work it could become viable to use the lvl 70 trinket in fights where mana is a limiting factor.

Roywyn · 09/18/08, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

Most importantly, since I just ran into this:
* The bug from the previous build with FoF appearing to grant just one charge is still in effect. For me, Frostfire bolt procing FoF results in the FFB itself burning one of the two charges immediately. The same may be true of non-glyphed Frostbolts (it was last build), but I am loathe to remove my glyph to confirm because they are very difficult to get ahold of for testing.

Did you have Frostbite specced? I think Frostbite casts eat one charge, not the previous spell, but I'm not sure.
It used to be that way last patch at least. It's a bug and will be fixed, but still very annoying.

Alternative - try Dr. Boom. He can't be frozen, try to see if you still get only 1 effective charge.

Pasture · 09/18/08, 8:43 AM

So is arcane even a playable spec in pve any more?

The only thing it had going for it was the massive 75% increased damage. It doesn't have this any more but it does have a ridiculous mana cost (unless this is a mistake - mmo seems to think it is). So essentially the damage has been massively nerfed and the mana cost has been massively increased.

I guess all those complaining about arcane pve damage got what they wanted. Problem being arcane now is completely broken.

With the changes we now have to spec missile barrage for the extra dps. We'll probably be wanting pushback protection too. So there's 10 more points we need to spend in a tree that was already massively bloated.

Why did the frost tree get talent points freed up when it had less talents in it in the first place. The arcane tree on the other hand, by far the most bloated of the trees, just forced us into spending more points that we don't have.

*sigh*

I've always been an arcane mage but unless we see some massive changes there's no point. I simply won't compete. My main nuke does average damage, costs an absurd amount of mana and the 3 second debuff drops off every time I do something other than cast it. Utterly useless.

Zaldinar · 09/18/08, 8:51 AM

Side note, AoE caps are through the bloody roof. I'm going to spend a hour or two doing VC runs to force an absolute cap, but heres an early peak at what we're looking at:

Arcane Explosion number 1 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 26412.3076923077 extrapolated total damage.
Arcane Explosion number 2 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 26252.25 extrapolated total damage.
Cone of Cold number 1 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 31799.2631578947 extrapolated total damage.
Cone of Cold number 2 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 31883.4285714286 extrapolated total damage.
Dragon's Breath number 1 hit 29 targets for 1293 each cap calcs at 37497.
Blast Wave number 1 hit 29 targets for 1293 each cap calcs at 37497.
Frost Nova number 1 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 20419.48 extrapolated total damage.
Flamestrike number 1 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 40173.2857142857 extrapolated total damage.
Flamestrike number 2 failed to cap out at 29 targets, did 40282.380952381 extrapolated total damage.

"extrapolated" total damage is the average non-crit from the sample multiplied by the number of targets, too lazy to reverse out crits for now, and those are just ballpark numbers anyway.

Edit: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Why do AOE caps still exist?? for the Beta forum blue post about it

Xentropy · 09/18/08, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Did you have Frostbite specced? I think Frostbite casts eat one charge, not the previous spell, but I'm not sure.
It used to be that way last patch at least. It's a bug and will be fixed, but still very annoying.

Alternative - try Dr. Boom. He can't be frozen, try to see if you still get only 1 effective charge.

I do have Frostbite spec'd (since I was also testing whether Frostbite and FoF continue to proc together, and they do), but it isn't Frostbite eating a charge, because my Glyphed Frostbolts DO proc Frostbite with FoF, but do NOT eat one of the two charges. Perhaps it is the landing of a chill effect sufficiently long after the proc of FoF (since instants don't seem to cost one of the two charges either) that eats a charge?

JocktheMotie · 09/18/08, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by Dannemmar

I'm still playing a 2xT5 mage as mi guild is still in MH/firts BT bosses and i like it very much. It' all in mana mangment, i usually spam AB with 3xfrostb just to drop debuff when i see i'm devoring my mana too fast.

I just need to understand where blizz is aiming w the arcane tree, on the PTR it looks a little overpowered @70 (mana is not a problem anymore) with the last nerf i think is not playable anymore (can someone on beta confirm that is +300% mana and not +30% ??)

But i think that is sill a work in progress

I logged on to PTR, and even though the client side hasn't been updated [Why Blizz?], the patch still went through on the server. My 3 stacked Arcane Blast was 2071 mana, I believe. Went from 22x, 807, 14xx, 2071. Tooltips were wonky so it was tough to get an accurate reading. This was while I was untalented however.

diag · 09/18/08, 9:03 AM

deleted

Prom · 09/18/08, 9:08 AM

FoF proccing from chill effects will also boost Blizzard significantly (for anyone who cares).

Anyone managed to test Mirror Images for this build?
I can't really do anything yet, since we don't have a patch out for EU yet

Enthorn · 09/18/08, 9:12 AM

While the beta realms were fortunate enough to have this updated build, the PTR realms are still on 8926 from Sep 8, though PTR was taken down for the same amount of time.

Zaldinar, can you try Living Bomb to see if its been given a cap?

Concerning Flamestrike's 2 second cast: it further trivializes the DoT. If 780 damage is delivered over 8 seconds, then every second that is reduced from the cast time further increases the number of Flamestrikes that can be cast during that 8 second window. Sure, it's an increase to the front end damage, but then, why have a DoT at all? It adds nothing. If anything, the ground pulse from Flamestrike should be a debuff to increase critical strike or damage against targets within the radius. (Not that that's a grand idea, but any idea is better than the DoT.) Perhaps we'll get a similar glyph for Flamestrike that increases the crit/damage and removes the DoT altogether.

Furthermore, the cast reduction to Flamestrike makes Firestarter an even more poor talent. There is simply no reason to ever sink two talent points into Firestarter for the instant flamestrikes, especially since Blast Wave completely removes all targets from ever being hit by a single flamestrike. Unfortunately, we're left waiting for Blizzard to do a once-over on the Fire talent tree. I'm not convinced that reducing the cast time of flamestrike is the only change in store.

I do like the emphasis they are placing on crit, and I actually wish crit could (mathematically) be superior to haste (in all circumstances, not just in a limited mana setting). Some numbers I came up with a while ago (that have probably been posted some 30 pages ago):

Hit
70   12.60   1.00   0.0794    5.00   0.40
80   32.78   1.00   0.0305   12.60   0.38   2.6015873

Crit
70   20.90   1.00   0.0478    5.00   0.24
80   45.87   1.00   0.0218   20.90   0.46   2.1947368

Haste
70   15.70   1.00   0.0637    5.00   0.32
80   32.85   1.00   0.0304   15.70   0.48   2.0923567

I used 5 to represent what is present on pyrestones (veiled/potent/reckless). The row for level 80 is set to the level 70 required amount for 1%. Thus, an item that provides 1% spell hit at level 70 will provide .38% at level 80. The last column is how much the required amount for 1% has changed vs level 70. I suppose the only implication this has, besides listing the amounts needed for 1% for level 80, is for maximizing any level 70 equipment still being used at level 80. For any further data associated with this, one would have to look at how much hit/crit/haste is being put onto ilevel 213 items from Naxx-25.

Edit: What cloak enchant is being used for DPS theorycrafting? From what I've done on PTR, threat is hardly an issue anymore, and enchanting Subtlety seems trivial compared to tailoring's Darkglow Embroidery, especially with the current changes to Replenishment.

Empyrea · 09/18/08, 9:17 AM

Mirror Images appear to only swap places with you once (still random in the direction you face) upon summoning now, not 3-5 as it was before though they deal the same damage, haven't seen a fire blast crit yet since they took out / moved the practice dummies.

dieseledge · 09/18/08, 9:18 AM

Originally Posted by Xentropy

Okay finally logged in and noted the following previously unmentioned changes/bugfixes, or confirmed assumptions:

* Cold as Ice no longer lowers the cooldown of Ice Block. Back to 4-minute instead of 3-minute iceblocks for deep frost.
* Frostbite and FoF are procing together every time with 3/3 Frostbite and 2/2 Fingers of Frost.
* Frostbite and FoF can still proc on Glyphed Frostbolts despite no chill effect being applied.
* Molten Armor procs are still burning FoF charges.
* It is still possible to exploit latency mechanics to get two uses out of the second FoF charge.

On a slightly separate note, one thing I haven't seen mentioned here, but was true before this build and continues to be true now: Trying to eat mana pies twice in under a minute still tells you the item is "not ready yet". Basically food/water combos (haven't tested other foods or waters yet) put more food/water on a hidden 60-second cooldown. This is pretty annoying given in a chain-pulling situation in Live I find myself frequently sitting to get one tick out of my water here and there...basically using mana pies when you're not going to sit all the way to 100% isn't really feasible now.

Most importantly, since I just ran into this:
* The bug from the previous build with FoF appearing to grant just one charge is still in effect. For me, Frostfire bolt procing FoF results in the FFB itself burning one of the two charges immediately. The same may be true of non-glyphed Frostbolts (it was last build), but I am loathe to remove my glyph to confirm because they are very difficult to get ahold of for testing.

Timeline:
Open with FFB (for chill effect, since my frostbolt is glyphed). FoF procs when the FFB leaves my hands, target is afflicted with Frostbite when FFB hits it.
Cast Frostbolt. FoF fades the moment it leaves my hands.

Combat log in-game:
03:35:05> [Your] [Fingers of Frost] applied [You]. -- This is where my opening FFB left my hands.
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostfire Bolt] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostfire Bolt] hit [Fern Feeder Moth] 1838 Frostfire.
03:35:06> [Your] [Frostbite] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:07> [Your] [Winter's Chill] afflicted [Fern Feeder Moth].
03:35:07> [Your] [Fingers of Frost] faded [You]. -- This is where the followup FrB left my hands.

Rest isn't relevant. I lost FoF after just casting one more spell after the FFB that proc'd it. Pretty big bug, I'm reporting in-game as well as cross-posting this on the official forum.

Ummmmm Ice Block starts at a 5 minute CD. 4 minutes is what you get with the cd reduction talent. Ice Floes in tier 1 lowers the Ice Block CD.

Shatter works for all spell schools which is why molten armor is using the charges.

Jonny_Monroe · 09/18/08, 9:19 AM

When I read the Focus Magic change I assumed it would work as a 1-target-only buff, thus stacking with raid buffs. You give it to whoever gets the most from the spell crit (likely fire mage or destro lock?), and in exchange they give you 3% crit as well ('the caster', being the caster of FM - you). effectively 6% crit divided between 2 players seems about right for an 11-point talent.

Is it working on live yet? anyone confirm?

Also; arcane blast: Is there any point in using it now? the unramped mana cost and damage are unchanged so it there was ever reason to use it unramped then there still is. My interest is in building an in-house arcane rotation that can compete, since arcane really struggle to find points for an off-spec nuke. If, however, you end up needing to stay in an off-spec nuke then can you sacrifice ABar in order to have a cycle completely under the MBAM umbrella? Is it worth doing that for more MBAM uptime?

Ulthwithian · 09/18/08, 9:23 AM

Johnny: I am anxiously awaiting the 'new' relative DPS numbers between the specs. If you go by Roywyn's (I believe) old numbers, even without AB spam, Arcane could compete with Frost, and they were both around 8-10% below Fire, IIRC. (3900 Fire, 3600 Arcane and Frost)

I'm very interested in this, because it's fairly clear that AB spam is dead.

maxi · 09/18/08, 9:26 AM

The problem with new arcane blast is that it doesn't really offer more dps than fire when spammed.
Thus there is no room for surpassing fire spec with it.

I have this question though. How well does the new AB spam converts extraneous mana into damage, compared to Fire spec?

In fact, are we ready to peg what kind of spell cycling will an arcane mage do? From what i understand at the moment the mana efficient cycle is AB->Scorch->ABarr, while mana burning cycle is ABxInfinity. How much mana does an arcane mage trade for how much damage when he breaks from one cycle and goes into the other?

Shadout · 09/18/08, 9:52 AM

Originally Posted by Empyrea

Mirror Images appear to only swap places with you once (still random in the direction you face) upon summoning now, not 3-5 as it was before though they deal the same damage, haven't seen a fire blast crit yet since they took out / moved the practice dummies.

Sure the dummies aren't just moved elsewhere in the sewers? I think a blue poster said they would be.

Roywyn · 09/18/08, 10:07 AM

Since the EU servers are down, could someone explain what the new Focus Magic does?

So, who (okay, that is the mage) casts it on whom, who attacks whom and gives whom what crti buff?
And the duration and can it be cast on multiple people/mobs/units?

Also, Torment of the Weak, functional or not? If so, does it work on bosses that are snare immune?

Zaldinar · 09/18/08, 10:22 AM

Current caps for build 8962 are:

Arcane Explosion number 4 hit 58 targets for 635 each cap calcs at 36830.
Arcane Explosion number 6 hit 74 targets for 507 each cap calcs at 37518.
Arcane Explosion number 7 hit 55 targets for 682 each cap calcs at 37510.
Cone of Cold number 1 hit 55 targets for 682 each cap calcs at 37510.
Dragon's Breath number 2 hit 56 targets for 669 each cap calcs at 37464.
Dragon's Breath number 3 hit 76 targets for 493 each cap calcs at 37468.
Blast Wave number 1 hit 55 targets for 682 each cap calcs at 37510.
Frost Nova number 2 hit 70 targets for 535 each cap calcs at 37450.
Flamestrike number 4 hit 71 targets for 1056 each cap calcs at 74976.

So it looks like AE/CoC/DB/BW are all 37500 damage, and Flamestrike is 75000 damage. Going to shoot for another few capped examples of CoC/BW/Nova/FS for completeness sake, then work out Blizzard and Living Bomb (all this with data, parse script, etc, will be in my beta thread on the main mage forums in a bit)

Arvold · 09/18/08, 10:25 AM

I'm sorry for my English. I have not been writing in English since quite some time.

I just wanted to be sure if I understood previous post right.

In build 8962 Finger of Frost and Frost Bite are linked and replace each other. So it is pointless to waste 5 points for pvp purposes. Since both won't give you ~27 % chance to proc. But instead formula gives you still 85 % for normal FB. So you have just to pick Frost Bite or Finger or Frost.

Second question is.

Which spell does has higher priority? FoF or Frost Bite?

Thank you for solving my doubts.

Cheers.

Jonny_Monroe · 09/18/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Current caps for build 8962 are:

So it looks like AE/CoC/DB/BW are all 37500 damage, and Flamestrike is 75000 damage. Going to shoot for another few capped examples of CoC/BW/Nova/FS for completeness sake, then work out Blizzard and Living Bomb (all this with data, parse script, etc, will be in my beta thread on the main mage forums in a bit)

So essentially caps are now meaningless for all realistic situations.

Zaldinar · 09/18/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Jonny_Monroe

So essentially caps are now meaningless for all realistic situations.

That would seem to be the general trend. I'll be doing the same math I did for the level 70 spells ( World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Sunday morning PTR AoE Cap testing ) for +damage to cap specced for the spell etc. But with a 37500 damage cap on point blank AoEs I don't expect to hit that often. And for Flamestrike... Well... I had to pull the *entire* boat room of VC to cap it out. Parrot pets, bosses, guys off to the sides, everything.

Edit: If someone has a premade Warlock and some time, I'd be interested to see a /combatlog of a SoC detonation under super-high target conditions. If you're alliance side on Murmur I'll even do the gather for you.

Roywyn · 09/18/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Current caps for build 8962 are:

So it looks like AE/CoC/DB/BW are all 37500 damage, and Flamestrike is 75000 damage. Going to shoot for another few capped examples of CoC/BW/Nova/FS for completeness sake, then work out Blizzard and Living Bomb (all this with data, parse script, etc, will be in my beta thread on the main mage forums in a bit)

Stupid person posing a stupid question:
Which rank was that? The maximum rank that you can have at level 70?
I guess it is, just making sure.

That is really great news, and your testing is very appreciated.

What are the consequences of that?
If caps don't matter, only damage and scaling does.

* That means Blizzard will likely be your main spell for sustained AoE if you have 10-20 points in frost.
It's cheap, it's very good damage, it can slow and proc frostbite for more damage if specced.
You can do it from ranged, so you don't get hit by Auras (Hyjal), you don't have mobs in your face when you aggro.
And it lasts 8s, so it's not a GCD spamfest like the button mashing that is Arcane Explosion.

* Arcane Explosion is okay. Not bad, but not good either. It's a great spammable PBAoE with 40% threat reduction.
You'll use it on the run, or when you might get hit, or when you just need 1, 2 casts.

* Fire has strong AoE spells. With a Disorient or Knockback. Flamestrike is decent, but still awkward to use, unless that changed?
Living Bomb is powerful, but on a timer. Not sure how strong the knockback is now.

I don't really like the large knockbacks for pure AoE DPS, you don't want the mobs you just gathered to be tossed all over the place again.

The DoT ticks of Living Bomb are only single target, or did something change there?

I'll do an update on AoE spells when the servers are back up and we have reliable info on most things.