WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 7

radikal · 08/20/08, 8:10 PM

Jaw dropping damage take two. LOL.

I hope we see a new beta build this weekend with our talents actually working. I like that suggestion Lhivera with Brain Freeze but don't take my Hot Streak!

AShadowyMage · 08/20/08, 8:21 PM

Originally Posted by JonIrenicus

Uh oh, seems some devs may think mages are doing too much damage already

"by a factor of 2"

.....

IGN: World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King Preview

They mention other classes as well, but this article is mildly scary. Not sure I trust their dps testers.

The article is very scary to be more precise. To take an extract from it:

"[Mages] have their 51 point talents in all the different trees are like living bombs of fire tree, deep freeze tree, the arcane barrage for the arcane tree, and we're going to be massaging a lot of those. We're doing some of our early DPS testing and we're finding that the class does way more damage than we anticipated it would do like by a factor of two. "

A similiar thing was stated during BC beta before mages got nerfed very badly. Personally, I think it is a good idea for them to do their DPS testing but it really shouldn't be secretive. If they come with a claim like mages are "doing way more damage than we anticipated", they should show (and prove) how before making any sweeping changes that could be premature and in the case of BC again; disastrous.

Lgs · 08/20/08, 8:27 PM

By a factor of 2???

This is me filing Tom Chilton complaint #465,943. One OP 51 pt talent per tree does not make up for entirely broken spells (that actually define the spec) or complete lack of new talents that are even worth it (see fire).

◊ manly · 08/20/08, 9:55 PM

new sig.

cerebes · 08/20/08, 10:01 PM

I'm not sure if this has been done, but perhaps it would be interesting to post the IGN comment along with some of the theorycrafted dps numbers on the beta forums and see if any blue comments can be gotten on how this "factor of 2" opinion is being arrived at. Also possibly put in the theorcrafted Warlock rough dps numbers as well since from what has been posted on this forum mage's dps does not seem to be particularly out of line or even close to double dps of other classes.

Shakes · 08/20/08, 10:07 PM

One thing to keep in mind is that they have said their internal builds lead the beta realm by a week or two. Who knows what changes/bugs were in the particular build they were playing when they came up with such numbers. I wouldn't worry overly about it unless the next build to hit the beta realm halves mage DPS.

Malfeas · 08/20/08, 10:17 PM

It seems like his comment is saying that mages are doing twice as much as they expected mages to do, not twice as much as any particular class as some people are suggesting. It's a pretty scary comment because the TC isn't showing us too far out of line with other dps classes. I guess they're expecting us to do way less than everyone else.

Edit: Wait, he went on to say that the double dps factor is nearly the case with several other classes. I don't really see anything to worry about here.

Saruk · 08/20/08, 10:55 PM

All I can say is they better be testing end-game raid content and not just 10 or five mans. As Manly's new sig points out, this is dejavu.

Shadout · 08/20/08, 11:54 PM

Afraid it will be dejavu too, but maybe they just mean all dps is too high in wotlk currently, compared to what it was at lvl 70. A general nerf wouldnt change the class balance, but it could/would matter for pvp (good old sta vs dps) and pve (could be rebalanced giving mobs more health of course, but they might want mob health to scale reasonably too).

Prinsesa · 08/21/08, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Lons

OK, was just a misunderstanding as I saw someone remark how they had lost 20% of AM because they had out leveled it before the next one came up earlier in the thread and was very concerned.

To clarify, this is caused by Arcane Missiles having odd gaps in its ranks.

The new downranking penalties kick in if you're using a spell that's more than 5 levels old since you learned your current max rank. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

This normally isn't a problem because there is, at most, a 5 level gap between new ranks of Fireball and Frostbolt, but AM is odd because there's a rank 10 at level 69, then a rank 11 at level 70. This causes the penalty to kick in early for some reason, and you get hit by the penalty that doesn't seem to affect any other spell.

Lons · 08/21/08, 3:38 AM

And you watch, he won't make a single clarifying statement and just let that interview fester. Could the man be any more clueless? I went back and read as he laid down all the reasons our aoe and cs and single target dps was nerfed then and look at how everything played out and shake my head.

Tied to set bonuses to even be competitive, watching a non talented warlock spell blow the doors off of every aoe encounter. Watching warlocks solo things that no mage in vanilla wow was even allowed to even contemplate repeating more than once without a massive nerf. Sorry for the derail, just so disappointed in this man's vision of my class and knowing that he is the lead developer that no matter what good anyone else might do for us, he will have the final say.

Also in going through that post he made on wow's forums 2 years ago, I haven't found in the 10 pages scanned thus far, but 1 mage in all the very few that were in that thread that leveled to 70 that are actually in any tempest gear. That is profound looking at all those mages still frozen at 60 in that thread and then looking at the 70s and seeing that they are mostly in pvp gear or just in kara epics now. wow

Lileith · 08/21/08, 5:44 AM

Perhaps the '2 factor' is refering to FFB taking double effect from every +X% damage from all schools effect. Currently FFB is taking 20% damage from Scorch, 26% of COE, 10% from Misery, 20% crit from Winter Chill , maybe even 6% from Playing with fire , ect..

Deedre · 08/21/08, 6:19 AM

It could very well be related to double dipping by ffb. That said, Chilton's public relations skills leave a great deal to be desired. Our jaws are consistently dropping at the way he says the wrong thing at the wrong time in the wrong way.

Nor do I expect him to ever clarify this statement. This isn't the Chilton way.

Klungelslurf · 08/21/08, 6:42 AM

Quotes are often taken out of context, if you only read the following quote:

We're doing some of our early DPS testing and we're finding that the class does way more damage than we anticipated it would do like by a factor of two.

there definitely is reasson to worry.
However the full quote is:

We're doing some of our early DPS testing and we're finding that the class does way more damage than we anticipated it would do like by a factor of two. So we'll be looking into why that's happening and making some adjustments based on that. And that's the case with a lot of different classes. We have some work to do on the shaman, we have some work to do on warlocks and warriors, so there's a lot of stuff to be done to get it into final shipping condition.

I emphasized the part of the quote that matters in this case. The issue is that a lot of different classes are doing twice the damage intended by Blizz, not just mages.
This makes me a little less worried but it still doesn't remove it completely and considering the earlier "jaw-dropping damage" statement in the TBC beta I would say it wasn't very smart to again use mages as an example.
Imo there's no need to overreact just yet.

kadgar · 08/21/08, 7:28 AM

2006:

I know that many of you are feeling like mages will be a "nerfed" class in the expansion. However, I think it's worth pointing out that in all of the testing we've done so far, the mage has been the clear-cut top damage class in the expansion at level 70, even against single targets (hopefully not too much so). In test after test, our jaws are consistently dropping at the sheer damage output we've seen from the mage at level 70, so I do think that some of the panic here is unwarranted.

2008:

We're doing some of our early DPS testing and we're finding that the class [Mage] does way more damage than we anticipated it would do like by a factor of two.

Perhaps he lost a duel with his Warrior against a mage again...?

But seriously: Don't forget the following sentences: Edit: beaten on that.

So we'll be looking into why that's happening and making some adjustments based on that. And that's the case with a lot of different classes.

And I tend to agree with this pont. It seems that dps has tripled from TBC to LK for most classes which is porbably not intended.
So why not make some work for Blizzard and analyze where the tripple dmg comes from?

Spell dmg has doubled.
Base dmg of spells has increased only minimal and therefore further reduced its proportion of dps.
New talents bring a 20% (?) dmg increase.
Winter Chill and Scorch ~ 5% increase (fire: -5+10%, frost now subject to partial resi)
Shaman totems and other Raidwide buffs: x%
New Druid buffs: y%

I think there are just so many raidwide (de-)buffs, most of them multiplicative with (multiplicative) talents and spell dmg, that it got out of control.

How to solve that?
I would cut in halve all raid wide buffs and debuffs (coe, scorch, w chill, etc -> 5% each). And lower the spell dmg increase from TBC to LK, since with the reduction of hit cap already freeed some quite some stat points.

Roywyn · 08/21/08, 7:56 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

To clarify, this is caused by Arcane Missiles having odd gaps in its ranks.

The new downranking penalties kick in if you're using a spell that's more than 5 levels old since you learned your current max rank. (Correct me if I'm wrong here)

This normally isn't a problem because there is, at most, a 5 level gap between new ranks of Fireball and Frostbolt, but AM is odd because there's a rank 10 at level 69, then a rank 11 at level 70. This causes the penalty to kick in early for some reason, and you get hit by the penalty that doesn't seem to affect any other spell.

I'll try to correct you there, and do some downranking write-up later on, even if it has become irrelevant

Every spell and every rank have a level where it still gets it's full +damage/healing scaling, and after that you lose 5% per level.
This "last level" seems to be hard coded and not calculated.

For most spell names, we have "last level = learned level + X", where X = 11 for Consecration, 6 for Arcane Missiles, ~6/7/8 for the Flash of Light/Holy Light lines (I think).
It's different for every spell line.

These "last levels" are hard-coded though - compared to live where the downranking penalty is calculated (via learned+11). Or they use something else, and invisible "spell level" entry or whatever.
We simply can't determine the exact nature of the max level calculation now.

This causes some things to be buggy.
Consecration rank 4 (or 5?) is coded as some levels too high, Arcane Missiles 10/11 are coded as some levels too low.

Also, Arcane Missiles' rank 10/11 tooltip damage doesn't change after level 70 while it's actual base damage does change, so there are far more wonky things with that spell.

Frostbolt and Fireball have a level 70 rank as well which was in BC data (but just not on trainers) which don't have those downranking issues (I think).

[Edit]: Factor 2, the hell?
If mage damage is cut by 50%, then Blast spam in an AB specialised spec with 2T5 will be behind Shadow Priest. And these guys are still on the bottom of everything.

Lezwyn · 08/21/08, 8:36 AM

"like, by 2" doesn't literally mean mage damage will be halved, it's just a figure of speech mostly.

Actovision · 08/21/08, 8:48 AM

I don't know whether to be more scared of the "factor of 2" statement or the "We are definitely in the later stages of beta" statement. I realize that in terms of content Blizzard might be comfortable launching with only one or two raid dungeons and whatever 5 man instances they have completed, but when I look at the apparently major tuning and bug fixing that needs to be done I don't see wotlk as a game ready to ship.

Shadout · 08/21/08, 9:42 AM

I certainly hope they only launch with 2 raid dungeons, rather than 4+ half-finished ones. Later beta stages could also mean anything, its not like the game is coming out in 2 weeks.

Pintofbrew · 08/21/08, 9:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lezwyn

"like, by 2" doesn't literally mean mage damage will be halved, it's just a figure of speech mostly.

Whether or not it's literal or figurative is irrelevant. Look at the evidence:

1) Last time we heard such a statement, we gained idiotic bullshit like Damage Tax within the month, while the clearly mentally imbalanced synergy of 15% Shadow Weaving, 5% misery, 10% CoS and occasional 20% ISB took much longer to get a 5% nerf.

2) Does mage scaling impress you now? Do you feel competitive given the feedback and understanding you have of your class, compared to other classes in WotLK Beta? You better, because whether Kalgan means "mage needs halving" or "mage needs a 10% drop" is irrelevant. Point of the matter is, we're far from done, we're not competitive, and we're in line for a nerf of non-insignificant proportion, it would seem.

Do not make light of this fact. The mage is looking the messiest it's ever looked, with too much non-intuitive malarkey flying. We're clearly in need of a further look-to and we're not nearly half as imballanced as the gentlemen would have us believe. This does not bode well when the only thing we know about the beta is: (a) They'd like to nerf us (b) it's nearing it's end.

Prom · 08/21/08, 9:57 AM

You have to wonder what kind of people they have testing the Mage class. I could think of a few cosmetic adjectives to describe them :P

However, I'm an optimist and from what they've said so far, I believe that we will see an increase in dps (single target and aoe) and in raid utility in Lich King. I'm confident that this won't turn into another "jaw-breaking" fiasco.

Joq · 08/21/08, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Prom

You have to wonder what kind of people they have testing the Mage class. I could think of a few cosmetic adjectives to describe them :P

However, I'm an optimist and from what they've said so far, I believe that we will see an increase in dps (single target and aoe) and in raid utility in Lich King. I'm confident that this won't turn into another "jaw-breaking" fiasco.

I'd worry more about what kind of people they have testing the other classes if their mage testers are doing twice as good as them. The mage guys must be really good!

Thegoodman · 08/21/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

stuff (a) They'd like to nerf us (b) it's nearing it's end.

These 2 things combined are very scary. Quick nerfs tend to be overdone so as to fill the "need" of a nerf. Without proper testing it could be a huge detriment to our overall abilities.

Double dipping is certainly overpowered in its current state and I am afraid they will end up nerfing Frostfire Bolt so much that it is nearly worthless as a nuke.

Lezwyn · 08/21/08, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Whether or not it's literal or figurative is irrelevant. Look at the evidence:

1) Last time we heard such a statement, we gained idiotic bullshit like Damage Tax within the month, while the clearly mentally imbalanced synergy of 15% Shadow Weaving, 5% misery, 10% CoS and occasional 20% ISB took much longer to get a 5% nerf.

2) Does mage scaling impress you now? Do you feel competitive given the feedback and understanding you have of your class, compared to other classes in WotLK Beta? You better, because whether Kalgan means "mage needs halving" or "mage needs a 10% drop" is irrelevant. Point of the matter is, we're far from done, we're not competitive, and we're in line for a nerf of non-insignificant proportion, it would seem.

Do not make light of this fact. The mage is looking the messiest it's ever looked, with too much non-intuitive malarkey flying. We're clearly in need of a further look-to and we're not nearly half as imballanced as the gentlemen would have us believe. This does not bode well when the only thing we know about the beta is: (a) They'd like to nerf us (b) it's nearing it's end.

No, you could look at Blizzard's recent statement to ---"We aren't going to make a big dps pass on classes until talents have stabilized a bit and most of the bugs are knocked out."--- and their intention to give mages high damage as more evidence than a global statement in an interview for a not-so specialized magazine. Besides, they're not stupid.

edit: He might have said that because their builds are different than the public's, we don´t know if perhaps other classes damage is also too high, it was not a serious comment, just a hyperbole to have something to say to the interviewers. etc.

The fact current builds might not be as according to people's wishes means nothing if Blizzard said the numbers can/will change and their intention is still to give mages higher damage, so it´s too early to in fact be worried about how mages will end up dps-wise.

AShadowyMage · 08/21/08, 11:29 AM

Noone here wants to call Blizzard stupid; but it could very well be likely they are using a flawed method in doing these so called 'DPS tests' just like what was done in the BC beta. I just find it weird that they are open about so many things but very secretive about this (ie the DPS testing) when at the end of the day, people are going to find out anyway.

When you look at stuff at skills, raid buffs and debuffs, encounters scenario, scaling, group compositions, etc, it is almost a mistake 100% of the time to keep these sort of stuff in the dark. Mages, (and anyone else that was mentioned) have every right to be concerned. We really should have someone asking in the beta forums exactly how they are doing these tests on (using the criteria above).

As for the mention with the frostfire being too strong; I am not really so sure. The theory done here had it pretty well balanced for most part (without the Death Knights frost weapon debuff). What made frostfire silly back then was when it had that raid wide shatter benefiting debuff.