Lhivera

Thing is, if any spec is within 3-5% of any other spec, it's going to be 3-5% higher roughly as often as it's 3-5% lower. A window that small is quite simply too small for Blizzard to hit with any precision given the great differences in encounter design and scaling. So it's kind of meaningless to say "X is 3-5% lower than Y" (though I know I've said that before myself). You can pretty much say that X and Y are equal when they're that close, because in any practical sense, they are.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

 

Bakou

More specifically, at lvl 70, for pure FB spam I believe the breaking point is at 40,01% crit (fully buffed). i.e. Above 40,01% crit 5/5 burnout is better than spell impact+2/5 burnout

Using Lhivera's formulae : 1 + Crit_Chance * Crit_Bonus = Crit_Multiplier
and defining Spell dmg as (Spell base + spell_coeff * spell_power) * Crit_Multiplier

To simplify, I'm using: c = crit_chance; SP = spell power; D = FB base damage = (815 + 115%*SP)
5/5 burnout crit bonus = 1,5445 (or 254,45%)
2/5 burnout+spell impact crit bonus = 1,3156 (or 231,56%)

Hence, unless my math is wrong, the breaking point is defined as :
(1 + 1,3156*c)*D*1,06 = (1 + 1,5445*c)*D

Which solves as : c = 0,06 / (1,5445 - 1,3156*1,06) = 40,01%


Also going 0/52/9 @ 70 allows you to include LB if you can deal with the additional mana involved (LB spam + burnout cost on crits) ...

edit: edited out a comment on %dps increase of LB as it was based on an (simplified) model of FB spam and hence could be confusing

 

• baudin

Seeing as how an ignite will disappear when two fire spells crit simultaneously, I was curious which spells full frosties (with 10 points in fire) choose to shatter (for example, when fingers of frost procs).

The cast sequence I am trying to avoid is shattering a frostfire bolt with a brain freeze fireball because of the lost ignite damage. Some of the options are;

1) frostfire bolt -> ice lance
2) frostbolt -> fireblast
3) frostbolt -> brain freeze fireball
4) frostbolt -> ice lance

But what happens when brain freeze procs at the same time as (or one cast before) a fingers of frost proc? Would one;

1) frostfire bolt -> ice lance, use brain freeze fireball on next cast and hope it crits
2) frostbolt -> brain freeze fireball, and resume frostbolt spam

Managing procs as a deep frost mage is admittedly quite 'fun', however there are quite a few procs to manage which can overlap. With frostbolt having a relatively quick casting time, the window for the decision making process is quite small, and I want to maximize my dps at any given time.

 

Arazan

I'm not 100% sure but I believe that if you're using a 0/10/51+10 build, you will end up doing more damage with frostbolt than FFB. FFB Is more designed for 0/34/37 or 0/50/21 type builds that get all the crit and damage modifiers from the fire tree and pick up ice shards for the 2.8 crit modifier.

Also, ignite does not *always* bug, but when you have multiple crits in series there's a decent chance an ignite will be overwritten. If you're designing a FFB build, you'll probably be better off to just keep using FFB/fireblast instead of trying to avoid ignite bugs.

 

Saruk

I am trying to look at the dps dispersion for the different specs - just to see what the likely high and low end dps totals are for each spec. This is an iterative procedure that effectively casts 500 6min boss fights for each spec and totals the results in a histogram of dmg done (it looks a the spread and the likelihood of each dmg total).

When looking at HS procs for the fire spec though, I can't seem to come up with a number close to H = C^2/(1+C). So if C=0.5 then H should be 0.17? I get something closer to .25 which is just C^2.

Maybe I am missing what exactly the HS equation you mention is meant to model - HS obviously can't proc on every single hit as it has a prior crit requirement so I am not too sure adding those two probabilities together is the right way to account for what I am trying to do - but it might work for your model. Not sure.

 

Hinalover

I'm not thinking delete this post if need be. It was late at night when I started looking at the math and was looking at the algebra from a completely different angle. Meh

But I do have to agree that there is something wrong with that formula that is not coming up with the same consistent results.

 

Zaldinar

Bit late on this one, sorry, was at a wedding all weekend.

It's slightly more complicated than just Scorch->Pyro and Fireball->scorch, as their entire rotations timelines need to be taken into account. As you stretch them out some are more likely than others to hiccup the ignite by casting on top of it. In a grossly generalized sense though:

1) Scorch->Pyro, I have yet to observe this losing ignite damage, it may be possible with ridiculous timing, but is not likely.
2) Fireball->Pyro, bugs rather often in both directions. The timeline created by this cast sequence can easily result in hiccups.

Overall my completely junk short term data gathering on this gave around 10% ignite damage gained by doing scorch->pyro due to hiccup bugs inherent in the timeline, and around 2.8% lost overall from fireball->pyro, where the actual 'lost' factor was about 5.44%, with some made up in hiccups.

More incoming on this over the next few days. Going to go heavy into the addon fun tuesday and wednesday.

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Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 

Solisa

We don't know, the balance pass isn't done. Blizzard has said they want all classes to provide some amount of debuffing and relatively similar dps.

 

Searix

Just did a week straight of 10 man naxx, responses:

Grumps:
-You are using mage armor in naxx. There is no question about that. Mage armor and the glyph are both required. Living bomb is only cast in rare situations due to its mana cost.
-Your dps will barely increase in naxx 10 man, most of the items have your sunwell geared stats with additional regen. Weapons are typically exceptions.
-Mage dps feels 15-20% to low, assuming you grab all the spirit regen items blizzard wants you to take to sustain your rotation.
-Your glyphs are a huge amount of your dps, and every time you respec you have to buy new glyphs. Also REALLY frustrating having glyphs for molten armor and mage armor that make such a huge difference.
-Mirror Image

Positives:
-Current Mage fire AoE is one of the most fun things i've ever experienced in WoW, especially with Firestarter (only qualm is not having the points to often put into it). Flying aboms are all the rage.
-3 second invis is a godsend (although it still can randomly break)
-Improved Scorch is a godsend
-Mirror Image

Overall mages still need a major dps and itemization passover, but a few large steps are already in place to make mages much more fun than TBC raiding.

Edit: I'd like to throw out WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> KT: Highlighting Broken Mana Mechanics

Read and bump

 

Prom

Mana issues in 10man naxx aren't very consistent since it highly reflects on your group composition.
I've done runs where I had used Molten armour quite often and the glyphed Mage armour ocasionally and I've done runs where I was running with Mage armour 95% of the time.

In 25man naxx, mana is not an issue, you'll do most bosses with Molten armour.
This is of course with a few lvl 80 epics, I'm running at 15-17k mana buffed (maybe more not sure).

Dps is lower than expected but it's not really important since things (may) change radically every new build.

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rather than truth as the authority.

 

Roywyn

Something is broken with JoW not refreshing.
So you're missing 400 mp5. I felt that too, checked the logs and saw JoW only giving mana back 2-3 times in a boss fight.

Paladins insisted that they kept it up.
Even paladins ran low on/out of mana due to JoW.

On the other side, it's pretty bad design to completely depend on JoW as a class.


Mirror Image likely has the -90M threat Fade effect.
While Mirror Image was active, my standard UI has always displayed me as having 0% threat on any mob.
When Mirror Image fades, you get all the accumulated threat back, which I can painfully confirm *cough*

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

maxi

I have this question.

How does an AB(0)->ABarr rotation work for filler time in arcane specs?

My calculations show that it is strictly superior to frostbolt spam in Arc/frost spec, both in terms of dps and dpm.

However, when compared with ABar->Frostbolt in the same spec, as well as Fireball spam, and Fireball->ABarr in arc/fire specs (imp.scorch variants), it shows less dps and more dpm, so i was wondering how it works out in more robust models / simulations.

Also, i was wondering if people who seen Naxx in arc spec recommend taking Arcane Stability talent.

Finally, am i correct in asumming that best arc spec at 70 is 58/3/0?

 

Lutzey

I don't really understand why suggestions like this keep popping up. We need to make sure we approach things from the context of Blizzard's current agenda, which is: All DPS is going to be roughly equal. Creating a new talent like this in the 2nd tier of the fire tree would mean only two things.

1) It would be a requirement to achieve maximum DPS for nearly every spec. Blizzard has an X in mind for Mage DPS. If you add 10% in one place at this point, that only means 10% needs to come off somewhere else to maintain X. Basically, the damage increase portion of the talent would be meaningless in the end and

2) All mages that are speccing for maximum DPS would henceforth be in Berserker stance. There would be no damage gain, only a drawback in this case.

I just plead that we all think very carefully before we even hint around with suggestions like this because I fear Blizzard may grab at anything and implement it. They haven't been too hot in the thinking department lately.

 

cyimben

Like Manly said there's no point at putting points on survival talents while your dps decreasing , and also it's true if the dps would be equal to fire with that extra survival in frost there's no point in speccing fire either.

I think if the survival addition in frost tree gives more dps than the low survival fire it may be choosed as an equal selection. What i am trying to say is lets think as fire and frost trees equal dps outputs , but to make the much dps with fire u need more heals or more running and with frost lets say u dont need those and just stand still and nuke it , or put spell interrupt or pushback in fire more than the frost so the output will become nearly the same

Ofcourse i dont mean to make them both equal every single way but as we all know a basic "to give some extra ability to a spec you should get some abilities out of that spec" but at my sight of opinion the in and out abilities must be equal
Survival is not equal to more Dpsin nearly every single fight ofcourse there are exceptional fights but lets face it Blizzard ice barrier is not equal to hot streak , second iceblock is not equal to AP these are examples i am not saying make them equal

All i am trying to say if we want people to choose between specs the "in and out abilities" should be equal if i am choosing to spec ice barrier that should give me more dps output in the name of survival if i am a dps class all my specs should do nearly the same X dps but i should have the option to make that X dps with more survival or more mana burning or more cookie cutter way

but with the talents at current state there is no equality between specs

 

Thegoodman

I think that the biggest issues with the mage trees are that they go against a lot of the ideas of dps in WotLk according to what we have been told by the developers. If DPS is supposed to be equal across the trees, then why are some of the biggest non-dps factors not spread across the trees. Non-hybrid classes should have basically 3 options; efficiency, survivability, or a balance of the 2.

Arcane should offer decent mana efficiency, decent survival, and comparable dps to Frost/Fire.
Fire should offer great mana efficiency with less survivability and comparable dps to Arcane/Frost.
Frost should offer crappy mana efficiency with great survivability and comparable dps to Arcane/Fire.

Why is this so hard? Right now Frost has crappy damage, and great survivability and mana efficiency. Arcane is worthless. Fire has little to no survivability and crappy mana efficiency.

Some would argue that AoE abilities should factor into the equation, I disagree. I think our AoE abilities should be as good as Blizzard wants them to be without requiring talents to improve them, this goes for all classes. Any talent that effects AoE abilities should effect that entire spell's school of abilities, not just the 1 spell.

Frost Changes:
---Blizzard should have an inherent ability to snare - Remove Imp Blizzard Talents
---The water elemental should NOT give mana regen to the raid, have the water elemental's abilities draw from the Mage's mana pool, but do much more damage, frostbolts on par with what the mage himself is casting. It could be the frost version of Molten Fury and used in mana surplus situations.
--Put some sort of pushback resistance in place of Imp. Blizzard, how about a 3/3 talent with a 70% chance to avoid pushback on all frost spells. This would help a lot with Frost and Blizzard.

Fire Changes:
---World of Flames should be removed and add either a percentage to crit or a percentage to increase damage of all spells.
---Living Bomb should give a mana regen ability to the raid, similar to that of the Water Elemental.

Arcane Changes:
---Spell Power needs to be moved WAY up in the tree. Tier 2 would be appropriate to match other "increase crit damage" talents. Change Arcane Fortitude to effect both your armor and your crit bonus, smash them together as 1 3pt talent.
---Arcane Missiles blows. It blows so hard, they made a talent that makes it half cast time, and it still sucks. Basically, make Arcane Missile a 3s cast and have it do damage similar to its current form. A 40% cast time reduction would make it a very good spell. Imp. AM needs to be a 3 pt talent w/ 70% pushback, in line with other cast reduction talents.

 

macbeet

The eternal discussion of Frost vs. Fire circles around Survival vs. DPS. Similarly Arcane was previously often perceived as a "gimmik" tree, with additions that are fun, but do not really do any good in Raid environment (like PoM and arcane power for controlled burst, and previously good mana efficiency).

The basic argument of the discussion is: "Fire has no benefit besides dps, so it should remain superior in this category".

However it were better if fire had a non-dps benefit of its own.
Say (simplified) that Frost is about survival, and arcane is about gimmiks and mana. What can Fire excel in?

What about AoE damage - blastwave, dragon breath and the addition of instant flamestrikes and living bomb makes fire already strong in this department. Previously Arcane Explosion was often too good and overshadowed them. But I think Blizzard is moving in the right direction by giving fire an individual trait, that is not simply "more dps". If fire would become even better for AoE (or whatever else you can think of) then it would be fair to compare it to the other trees benefits. No more "dps vs survival" but "survival vs. AoE vs. situational gimmik".

Furthermore at that point it would be totally fair to design all main speccs around equal (single target) DPS fair to bury the hatchet. Ideally, at equal Dps all speccs could become viable, while the mage is free to chose the playstyle he likes best.

 

Lutzey

Perhaps our low total HP, cloth limitation, and all around lack of survivability could be used to 'pay' for our AoE King status; Instead of the current suggestion that some of our single target DPS will be taken as ransom.

 

Lgs

This is a good idea in theory, but like it was stated before, no one needs to put talent points into AE abilities. We'll always put those points into something that will affect single-target DPS. So making fire the AE tree is pointless.

Gnomes are creatures of destruction.

 

◊ manly

368.9 % ffb crits ?

The reason spell power is deep in the tree rather than early is that it isn't school-specific. If you want to move it low in the tree then you need to make it affect only arcane spells.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

◊ Acustar

Last I heard JoW had an internal cooldown and could only proc for <one> person per ICD. Which is probably what you're experiencing. I'll try to dig up where I read this if I remember today.

 

macbeet

By that measure making frost the survival tree is also pointless, because we don not need to put talent points into survival. You can find this statement all over these threads. My suggestion is simply to make the trees vary only in the parts optional in a raid environment, and as you point out: they are become interchangeable for raid viability. To upside is that you can play the style you enjoy.

 

Thegoodman

Even if this were to happen, would a 368.9% FFB crit make it the best single target nuke? Right now, at 315%, its still far behind Fireball. Since FFB does not scale with spell damage as well as FrB or FB, it will fall even farther behind as gear improves, why not make it scale just as well with spell crit?

 

Laif@garona

Earlier in the thread somebody said if there wasn't a limit to the number of points you could put into PWF, he would gladly dump 10 points in it. But the question is would you do it if the end result is, after dumping 10 points into PWF, you dps becomes *competitive* against a frost spec?

Then there was also someone saying survivabilty has little value in most of the boss fights, so frost mages shouldn't take a penalty in dps for having added survivabilty. Then I suppose it's perfectly alright for ice barrier to be a trainable ability for all mages?

The point is, however little you value survivability, when all things (dps) being equal, having something is better than nothing.

 

arch

I just noticed CoC and dragon's breath don't share cd anymore. Since when did that happen?

 

Lhivera

The point is, however little you value massive burst AOE damage and high instantaneous single target burst damage, when all things (dps) being equal, having something is better than nothing.

The point is, however little you value being able to DPS better on the move and having a faster threat dump, when all things (dps) being equal, having something is better than nothing.

Every tree has its little flavorful packet of non-DPS-related advantages that almost never matter.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.