WotLK - Complete Mage Compendium (3.3 PTR) - Page 99

Søndag · 10/01/08, 9:03 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Torment gives 6% damage, not 6% crit. And even so, spamming Slow will be a net loss as it'll cost you 1 GCD per 15%. That's 10% of your time for a 6% damage buff.

If it does work with FFB eventually it'll be a great addition for fire/arc builds; weaving in a FFB so as to benefit from the DoT and gain 6% from TotW should be of debatable usefulness even assuming semi-lame FFB for 18/53/0

Thanks for pointing that out! Still according to the post by grey it's now up to 12% dmg, and then i think it would become worth the gcd.. but i have not been able to test anything yet.

Søndag · 10/01/08, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

Does Torment the Weak interact at all with Fingers of Frost?

It should interact with everything that puts the "snare" message on the screen, which all the frost snares did last time i was frost on the PTR.. but it should be fairly easy to test..

Sinless · 10/01/08, 9:32 AM

So last night I played with the new and improved elemental spec to see how the new FFB worked. Even though it still hits for significantly less than fireball non-crit, its huge crits make up for the lost damage. Considering we are easily approaching 50% crit rates in your typical raid environment, overall dps of FFB seems to be slightly higher than fireball. The fix of spell impact (now 6% instead of a flat 6 increase) pulls fireball forward (especially with 4pT6 bonus, however with a much worse mana efficiency.

This leaves me once again with difficult choices to make. Do I spec elemental and use the excess mana for more living bomb upkeep time and molten armor? Do I use fireball and spec 18 into arcane for spell impact and use mage armor for maximum living bomb upkeep?

I'm at a loss.

Zaldinar · 10/01/08, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Living Bomb
Still at 4*20%+40% for me for rank 2 at 70.

Not tested at level 80 yet.
Possible issue: Living Bomb - Spell - World of Warcraft, Rank 3 Explosion is marked as level 70 spell, spell itself is level 80.

I've got it at 20% per tick, 25.33 to 25.39% per kaboom in build 9014. Anecdotally, I remember the LB ticking for 666 in prior patches and now it's down to 647, which could represent a coefficient change, or a base damage change. World of Warcraft (English) Forums -> Proven Beta Stuff

Edit: Strike that, 20% per tick, 36% per boom. And conveniently, the 647 vs 666 is 666 / 647 = 1.03 for PwF

Roywyn · 10/01/08, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by grayrest

Torment the Weak is now working and providing 12% damage instead of 6%. It works on both frostbolt and slow on the target dummies but only with slow on Dr. Boom. Edit: it does not work with thunderclap (attack slowing doesn't count as a snare apparently) or frostfire bolt but does work with slow cast by other people.

Hm, think you can find a druid to test it with Infected Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft
(not Rend and Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft).
[E]: That one works at least on snarable targets.

That's the only other thing I can think of that slow and does something else, hence sticks to bosses.
So, it's pretty close to the "Slow" spell.

Kyriani · 10/01/08, 10:25 AM

I am curious. Is there any possible way to effectively use FFB with a deep arcane spec? Or would this require at the very least for the devs to add FFB to spell impact (or somewhere else in the arcane tree)?

Also... can the feral talent "Infected Wounds" trigger the Torment the Weak talent?

dedmonwakeen · 10/01/08, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Hm, think you can find a druid to test it with Rend and Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft

That's the only other thing I can think of that slow and does something else, hence sticks to bosses.
So, it's pretty close to the "Slow" spell.

What about the "virtually frozen" aspect of Fingers of Frost?

grayrest · 10/01/08, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Hm, think you can find a druid to test it with Rend and Tear - Spell - World of Warcraft

I assume you meant infected wounds. I ran across a druid on one of the training dummies and it did work. Unfortunately the boss training dummy is snareable and he wasn't willing to fly to boom just to test (can't really blame him).

Originally Posted by dedmonwakeen

What about the "virtually frozen" aspect of Fingers of Frost?

Doesn't apply. Also only affects the first missile from an AM volley.

Originally Posted by Søndag

It should interact with everything that puts the "snare" message on the screen, which all the frost snares did last time i was frost on the PTR.. but it should be fairly easy to test..

Snare doesn't show up on the screen any more for anything.

Originally Posted by Kyriani

I am curious. Is there any possible way to effectively use FFB with a deep arcane spec? Or would this require at the very least for the devs to add FFB to spell impact (or somewhere else in the arcane tree)?

I ran it through my spreadsheet with a 53/10/8 spec and it was slightly lower than frost but you don't get any imp scorch/Frost Channeling/MoE, so I consider it pretty pointless. Nothing this patch would really change that.

Kyriani · 10/01/08, 10:43 AM

Ok just for curiosity I put focus magic (the proper cast on others version) on a rogue who was testing on the training dummy. Something he was doing was able to trigger the focus magic proc on me. Now I am sure his white hits were critting alot more frequently than the proc was happening... but SOMETHING he was able to do did trigger it though I couldnt tell exactly what.

I am unsure of rogue mechanics but can poisons crit? The rogue was of little help to me when I spoke to him but there is SOMETHING he was doing that was able to proc it.

EDIT: he said he was using instant poison and perhaps that was proccing it.

grayrest · 10/01/08, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriani

I am unsure of rogue mechanics but can poisons crit?

Instant/Wound poisons can crit and count as spells. I don't think deadly can but I only run my rogue through alt karas.

Roywyn · 10/01/08, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by grayrest

Instant/Wound poisons can crit and count as spells. I don't think deadly can but I only run my rogue through alt karas.

Deadly is a DoT and can't crit. Instant poison didn't trigger it last patch, seems they changed that too!

I'll update the first post post in a day or two once we know how most stuff works.

Kyriani · 10/01/08, 11:03 AM

Hypothetically if they added frostfire bolt to spell impact, would that make frostfirebolt an ideal off nuke to use for triggering torment the weak?

Currently I have been playing on the ptr cycling frostbolt, fireball, arcane barrage and hitting AM on MB procs. Basically trying to keep the uptime of the snare constant so the damage bonus from torment is always there.

I don't have a beta key so I cant post in the beta mage forums to suggest they add FFB to the talent

Also with the buff to MB is it worth taking as a dps boost? or would fire/frost talents serve better?

grayrest · 10/01/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kyriani

Hypothetically if they added frostfire bolt to spell impact, would that make frostfirebolt an ideal off nuke to use for triggering torment the weak?

Well there's that whole problem that FFB doesn't actually trigger TtW and GC has said that there's a good chance that the talent will be changed to only affect some spells...

Kyriani · 10/01/08, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by grayrest

Well there's that whole problem that FFB doesn't actually trigger TtW and GC has said that there's a good chance that the talent will be changed to only affect some spells...

Yea... I was assuming that FFB would be adjusted to trigger it. but still in that hypothetical situation would FFB actually be viable if it was part of spell impact and could trigger torment?

And I am still unsure if I want to bother with missile barrage. I love being arcane but the point investment so deep in the tree makes it very difficult to get out of tree talents that seem necessary.

Jonny_Monroe · 10/01/08, 11:49 AM

Hypothetically if they added frostfire bolt to spell impact, would that make frostfirebolt an ideal off nuke to use for triggering torment the weak?

There are plenty of classes that can passively 'snare' bosses as a result of their normal cycles. I'll get a list up in a few but its pretty good bet that your target in a raid will be snared anyway.

Feral Druid - Infected Wounds
Unholy DK - Desecration (might have hitbox problems)
Frostfire Mage

Theres probably more but I'm afraid i'm pushed for time just now.

Lhivera · 10/01/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Samuel

With the top mage talent being pretty much PvP only I have to say the Frost tree is a bit of a disappointment. Even with low damage it really wasn't going to be useful.

If you added a frozen effect for the duration of the stun would that make is good enough for PvE? You would loose a global cooldown but if it would add a shatter combo to the end of a FoF proc plus a little synergy with arcane/frost/fire damage I think it would go a long way to redeeming frost for PvE without making it overpowered in PvP.

No, the numbers don't work out. There isn't an instant-cast spell that deals high enough damage to make up for the lost GCD (and the Frostbolt just cancels out, since you would have cast that instead of the Deep Freeze on the second charge).

Shadout · 10/01/08, 12:41 PM

Maybe its not technically doable, but couldnt Deep Freeze either stun OR, if the target was immune to stuns (e.g. raid bosses mostly) do dmg.

Zaldinar · 10/01/08, 12:47 PM

A note on spell impact, it appears to be ADDITIVE in nature, not multiplicative.

Gain for Fireball from Spell Impact + Playing with Fire + Firepower

Tooltip Min: 898
Tooltip Max: 1143
Plus Damage: 1508

Datapoints: 1014
Min Observed: 2875
Max Observed: 3166
Expected Spread 1: (1143 - 898) * (1.06 * 1.1 * 1.03) = 294.2401
Expected Spread 2: (1143 - 898) * (0.06 +  1.1 * 1.03) = 292.285
Expected Spread 3: (1143 - 898) * ((0.06 +  1.1) * 1.03) = 293.755
Expected Spread 4: (1143 - 898) * ((0.06 +  1.03) * 1.1) = 292.726
Observed Spread: 3166 - 2875 = 291

Gain Formula:  Observed Value / Expected Value without Spell Impact
Expected Min: (898 + (3.5 / 3.5) * 1508) = 2406
Expected Max: (1143 + (3.5 / 3.5) * 1508) = 2651
Gain by Min: 2875 / 2406 = 1.1949293433084
Gain by Max: 3166 / 2651 = 1.19426631459826

Proposed Gain Formula 1: (1.06 * 1.03 * 1.1) = 1.20098
Delta by Min: abs(1.20098 - 1.1949293433084) = (0.00605065669160454)
Delta by Max: abs(1.20098 - 1.19426631459826) = (0.00671368540173534)

Proposed Gain Formula 2: (0.06 + 1.03 * 1.1) = 1.193
Delta by Min: abs(1.193 - 1.1949293433084) = (0.00192934330839534)
Delta by Max: abs(1.193 - 1.19426631459826) = (0.00126631459826454)

Proposed Gain Formula 3: ((0.06 + 1.1) * 1.03) = 1.1948
Delta by Min: abs(1.1948 - 1.1949293433084) = (0.000129343308395535)
Delta by Max: abs(1.1948 - 1.19426631459826) = (0.000533685401735262)

Proposed Gain Formula 4: ((0.06 + 1.03) * 1.1) = 1.199
Delta by Min: abs(1.199 - 1.1949293433084) = (0.00407065669160467)
Delta by Max: abs(1.199 - 1.19426631459826) = (0.00473368540173547)

I'm still casting trying to get a final spread that matches expected, but it looks like formula 3 is the most likely, so we're looking at:

(1.1 for Firepower + 0.06 for Spell Impact) * 1.03 for Playing with Fire

I'll rerun the test with Arcane Instability and the rest next to see how it works in. But this slightly complicates modeling depending on when it is added into the algorithm.

Lhivera · 10/01/08, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Shadout

Maybe its not technically doable, but couldnt Deep Freeze either stun OR, if the target was immune to stuns (e.g. raid bosses mostly) do dmg.

It would have to do a ton of damage, with excellent scaling, to make that work. At 2K spell power and 35% crit, it would need to deal an average of nearly 5400 damage on a frozen target just to match Frostbolt spam, and it would need to scale well enough to keep up as gear improved. Just doesn't seem very likely.

Setia · 10/01/08, 1:17 PM

I've noticed that Chilled to the Bone now affects Frostfire Bolt as well as Frostbolt and Ice Lance now. Is that new, or was it already that way and I missed it?

Raoke · 10/01/08, 1:31 PM

Has anyone tested to see if Arcane Potency will add 30% crit to every cast so long as PoM is active? Seems like it would get hit pretty hard with the nerf bat if it does, but how viable would that make a ABar -> AM rotation? Additional 30% crit to each cast could be huge.

Of course, the tip does read "Next Damaging Spell". So it's most likely a long shot.

Zaldinar · 10/01/08, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Raoke

Has anyone tested to see if Arcane Potency will add 30% crit to every cast so long as PoM is active? Seems like it would get hit pretty hard with the nerf bat if it does, but how viable would that make a ABar -> AM rotation? Additional 30% crit to each cast could be huge.

Of course, the tip does read "Next Damaging Spell". So it's most likely a long shot.

It did this at first, then was modified. Clearcasting and PoM both now grant the buff "arcane potency", which gives your next spell a crit bonus, casting a spell consumes the buff.

Søndag · 10/01/08, 1:35 PM

I just had a test round on a target dummy, testing Torment of the Weak. I looks like it indeed does 12% more now, eventhough the tooltip still says 6%! (my 1800 AB's got boosted to 2000)

I also had a frost mage applying different snares, and the all work, even the slow component from his frostbolts gave me the 12%..

◊ manly · 10/01/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Manly, I'll take a look at ZIT today, if they changed anything in the structure of the damage events in this patch then it'll behave wonky.

Edit: Oh, and I wasn't ever expecting 43 meg debug files, the script was tuned to allow 32 meg or lower, I raised it to 64 a moment ago if you still have the file.

Edit2: I'm observing no issues with vic 0.4 here. Were you using FFB? if so, FFB isn't handled in the v0.4 I released, and can potentially cause you to get a whole lot of unexpected ignite damage, since the addon is looking for fire spell crits, not frostfire crits.

Oh yeah, I was using FFB. Still got the file, but the end of it is severely mangled by ffb crits.

Zaldinar · 10/01/08, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Oh yeah, I was using FFB. Still got the file, but the end of it is severely mangled by ffb crits.

Make the condition on line 337 of Zit.lua change from:

	if(critFlag == 1 and spellSchool == 4 and spellID ~= 34913) then

to

	if(critFlag == 1 and (spellSchool == 4 or spellSchool == 20) and spellID ~= 34913) then

And it will cover FFB. And I can filter out the bad FFB entries from the database here if you don't mind uploading them anyway.