Last night, my guild had our first attempt on Heroic Faction Champions in 25 man, but we were having various different issues. One question that I have been scouring the web for is: Should a frost or arcane PVP spec help for this particular fight? Myself and some of the other mages were thinking frost PVP for the improved snares, but arcane PVP for the reduced resistance to Counterspell and Polymorph.
A PvP spec is really not necessary, I've always done it as PvE Arcane. However each raid is different so if you happen to have a PvP spec as your secondary, then by all means try it and see how it works for you. There is no "right" answer as such, whatever you find works the best for you and the raid.
The Mage theme song.
<+icesurfer> this is the fucking security industry; if you want ethics, join the Red Cross
The discussion, in terms of Mages, would appear to support a conclusion that Ice Armor and/or an Ice Armor glyph would be about the best you can do in terms of improving survivability while using a normal PvE spec. Obviously, a PvP spec would increase the survivability even more; however, you pretty much need two PvE specs (arcane and FFB) to clear ToGC anyways, so I doubt it's worth the respec for that one fight because you will eventually need two PvE specs in one run to clear it.
As long as you are aware of the melee NPCs and do a good job of keeping your distance away from them, then survivablity really shouldn't be a problem,a nd there's no reason for any pvp talents. If you're having a big problem dying to melee dps, then either your raid is not doing a very good job of CC'ing them or you are not paying attention to where they are. Our raid puts raid symbols on each of the melee DPS, and assigns some kind of tanking class to root, slow, stun, etc them.
I'd recommond going with your favorite high DPS PVE spec--my personal favorite for this fight is PVE Arcane. I have a focus target for Counterspell on one of the healers, and throw out a few sheeps on either the hunter, mage, warlock, or spriest if I get the chance. Other than that, I just never get close to any of the melee, run/blink/root/iceblock when I'm targeted, and burst down our main target.
Can anybody say me why arcane missiles still be partly resisted when my +hit% value is over 17%?
In every fight i get part-resists.
You're getting two mechanics confused. Hit, as the name implies, increases the chance (until the cap, obviously) that your spells will hit the target. Once the spell hits the target, other mechanics, such as resists, come into play. Resistances aren't affected by how much hit you have at all (except that you won't be having spells resist if they don't even hit).
Spell Penetration is the stat which can be used to overcome resistances, but there is no way to negate the small amount of resistance that bosses have.
Last night, my guild had our first attempt on Heroic Faction Champions in 25 man, but we were having various different issues. One question that I have been scouring the web for is: Should a frost or arcane PVP spec help for this particular fight? Myself and some of the other mages were thinking frost PVP for the improved snares, but arcane PVP for the reduced resistance to Counterspell and Polymorph.
Thanks for the feedback!
I have always specced hybrid Fire-PvP and CC'd a caster. Fire PvP gives you more ways to keep a caster CC'd then any other spec, and if you will be able to do a decent amount of DPS after your CC target is dead.
Here's a breakdown of the CC abilities of Fire PvP Vs Frost/Arcane:
All Specs:
Polymorph:Baaaaaa, can be used x3 before DR is hit
Counterspell:Should always be Improved for champs so 4 second silence
Frost Nova:Slightly useless against casters, but useful against melee.
Fire-PvP:
Blastwave- Can use knockback to interrupt spell cast
Dragons Breath-Can use Disorient to interrupt spellcast
Impact Stuns-Rare, but useful when you get them, can be used to interrupt spellcasts
Arcane-PvP:
Slow: Slightly useless if you have plate classes (DK's) kiting melee
Frost-PvP:
Deep Freeze: Very useful in the fight, can be used to stun/interrupt/kite
Water Elemental: Can be used if you are kiting melee
Frostbolt/CoC: Can be used to slow/root melee if you are kiting one
Ice Barrier: Useful if kiting melee/you don't want to die XD
So with these abilities in mind, Frost-PvP is the best for kiting melee, and Fire-PvP is the best for CC'ing casters. Any caster I CC as Fire-PvE gets sub 10% of his casts off. If people would like, I can give you my CC rotation for fire, just PM me.
I have always specced hybrid Fire-PvP and CC'd a caster. Fire PvP gives you more ways to keep a caster CC'd then any other spec, and if you will be able to do a decent amount of DPS after your CC target is dead.
Here's a breakdown of the CC abilities of Fire PvP Vs Frost/Arcane:
All Specs:
Polymorph:Baaaaaa, can be used x3 before DR is hit
Counterspell:Should always be Improved for champs so 4 second silence
Frost Nova:Slightly useless against casters, but useful against melee.
Fire-PvP:
Blastwave- Can use knockback to interrupt spell cast
Dragons Breath-Can use Disorient to interrupt spellcast
Impact Stuns-Rare, but useful when you get them, can be used to interrupt spellcasts
Arcane-PvP:
Slow: Slightly useless if you have plate classes (DK's) kiting melee
Frost-PvP:
Deep Freeze: Very useful in the fight, can be used to stun/interrupt/kite
Water Elemental: Can be used if you are kiting melee
Frostbolt/CoC: Can be used to slow/root melee if you are kiting one
Ice Barrier: Useful if kiting melee/you don't want to die XD
So with these abilities in mind, Frost-PvP is the best for kiting melee, and Fire-PvP is the best for CC'ing casters. Any caster I CC as Fire-PvE gets sub 10% of his casts off. If people would like, I can give you my CC rotation for fire, just PM me.
Hope this information helps you out with your champs attempts!
This is so much overkill. PvE specs are just fine for this fight with arcane being the best so you can move and cast effectively. If you get targeted just blink away, or if they stay on you, use your MI or just block them off. We let the melee lock down melee and we cc the casters with lock/mage combos. I keep one cc target as my focus and use clique to sheep him and for the other I have a /target [name] /cast polymorph /targetlasttarget macro. The melee kiters call out in vent who their target is going after so that person can start moving. This fight is really easy peasy. Don't think to much into it as a mage.
This is so much overkill. PvE specs are just fine for this fight with arcane being the best so you can move and cast effectively. If you get targeted just blink away, or if they stay on you, use your MI or just block them off. We let the melee lock down melee and we cc the casters with lock/mage combos. I keep one cc target as my focus and use clique to sheep him and for the other I have a /target [name] /cast polymorph /targetlasttarget macro. The melee kiters call out in vent who their target is going after so that person can start moving. This fight is really easy peasy. Don't think to much into it as a mage.
Not really overkill... If you need a reliable CC'er, and one of the few reliable people in the guild happens to be a mage, they seem like a great option.
Not really overkill... It's using one DPS to CC a caster instead of your guilds strat which requires two.
I don't think you understand what I was saying. When I say that we use Mage/Lock combos, they are able to lock down to targets. The mage sheeps target A while the lock fears target B, when poly and fear go on DR, they swtich and the mage sheeps target B and the lock fears target A. Casting a poly every 5-8 seconds and dps'ing in the mean time is a way better damage output then using a near-useless PvP spec for the fight. My point is that although your PvP specs might give you more cc options on the fight, it's really not necessary. Mages have the ability to be in the top 5 on the meters on faction champs, and by specing that way you are greatly gimping your numbers. Not to mention that once you get past faction champs you'll need your offspec ffb for anub.
I don't think you understand what I was saying. When I say that we use Mage/Lock combos, they are able to lock down to targets. The mage sheeps target A while the lock fears target B, when poly and fear go on DR, they swtich and the mage sheeps target B and the lock fears target A. Casting a poly every 5-8 seconds and dps'ing in the mean time is a way better damage output then using a near-useless PvP spec for the fight. My point is that although your PvP specs might give you more cc options on the fight, it's really not necessary. Mages have the ability to be in the top 5 on the meters on faction champs, and by specing that way you are greatly gimping your numbers. Not to mention that once you get past faction champs you'll need your offspec ffb for anub.
I think you are looking at the situation with blinders on. The job of any particular dps class on faction champs can vary greatly from one raid to the next and depends a lot on the raid comp you have and the faction champs comp you are facing.
My own particular guild has 1 or 0 DKs in every raid. We understand the value of DKs, we just can't find good players to fill that role as often as we'd like. Because I am one of the more competent people in our raid, I get the task of controlling the rogue. I do this as frost and the rogue is continuously snared or CC'd throughout the fight. The rogue is particularly problematic because of shadow step and cloak of shadows so a sheep/fear rotation goes to shit very quickly if he uses CloS or SS out of range. Ideally we would have 4x DKs that could just deathgrip all of the FC melee but we simply don't have that type of raid.
DPS meters on faction champs are a joke and saying that mages are missing some opportunity to be top 5 on that particular fight is missing the entire point of that particular fight. Between sheep, frost nova, snares, and counterspell; mages have an important role on Faction Champs and DPS isn't always a part of that role.
There are a million different strategies for Faction Champs and all of them are equally viable so as long as the raid is successful.
Just another note on the "PvP Spec for Faction Champs" question:
If for some reason you've decided to go with a Frost/Frost PvP spec to help out in Heroic Faction Champs, using the Water Elemental's ranged Frost Nova is a great way to start the pull. It will hit all enemies on 10 man (and most on 25 man) and most--if not all--of them will immediately waste their PvP trinket to get out of the snare. This will allow your raid's CC to be used to its fullest off the bat.
We use a DK to pull with Hungering Cold, which also causes them to pop their trinkets, and our mages have Glyph of Polymorph, which removes all DoTs so we can sheep without worrying about it breaking, and we all stay our regular raid specs.
Before we started killing Heroic Anub, we were frost for Faction Champs because it seemed more forgiving for survivability until everyone became efficient at their roles.
Once it's on farm, using your regular raid spec is very helpful for killing them quicker.
I agree that any strategy that gets them dead is just as viable as the next, there really is no right or wrong answer, just whatever works for your raid. It's helpful to know how many options are available, though, as it gives you more ideas to tinker with. Good luck!
Oh and:
Focus Magic Stacking
Does Focus Magic stack with the Moonkin Aura for more that 5% Spell Crit?
I noticed an issue with the strategy of popping a speed pot pre-fight in ToC. If i pop a speed pot before Garmok actually begins attacking, it still counts as my potion for the fight. So I wanted to get a list from people of fights where it is actually possible to pop a speed pot pre-fight? Below is a list of what I believe to be the case - any corrections to that list would be greatly appreciated.
Beasts and Jaraxxus - No because the fight "begins" more than 10 seconds before you can actually attack them.
Faction Champs - Yes, so long as it is popped before any of the FCs are agro'd.
Twin Valks - Yes, so long as it is popped before either valkyr agroes.
Anub - Yes, so long as it is popped before Anub is agro'd.
You could use a macro to make sure you don't use the speed pot when you are already in combat. I'll illustrate with a mana gem macro that you can test easily without incurring any costs:
Yeah, as soon as you go into combat, the potion rule applies, which now makes me think perhaps that's why you're in combat on several ToGC fights before the boss ever starts attacking, perhaps to nerf this trick?
Your list is accurate as far as ToGC is concerned.
Beasts and Jaraxxus - No because the fight "begins" more than 10 seconds before you can actually attack them.
Actually, with regard to Lord Jaraxxus, I think this only applies to your first attempt. If you wipe and re-zone in, Lord J is already summoned and is passive (with those purple chains around him) until pulled. I presume the pre-combat haste pot would work in that case.
've been raiding off and on for about 3 years now, and have noticed that my dps has been usually below the norm for other DPS [they do 7k whilst i struggle to maintain 4.5],
Log; World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
I'm not asking for someone to hold my hand, but any insight as to where "I'm doing it wrong" would be much appreciated.
I looked over the report for Northrend Beasts, and what jumps out at me is Zenlop has more casts than you. His casts also hit harder, which is probably gear-related, but I didn't compare your armory profiles. I don't know if you're doing any unnecessary moving or repositioning, but make sure you're moving as little as possible.
Also, since neither of you are scorching, you may want to think about switching to Arcane as it is the higher single-target DPS spec right now.
I looked over the report for Northrend Beasts, and what jumps out at me is Zenlop has more casts than you. His casts also hit harder, which is probably gear-related, but I didn't compare your armory profiles. I don't know if you're doing any unnecessary moving or repositioning, but make sure you're moving as little as possible.
Also, since neither of you are scorching, you may want to think about switching to Arcane as it is the higher single-target DPS spec right now.
Odd, i thought koro was dishing out improved shadowbolt to the mobs - I guess I should be paying more attention to the talent specs of our wiley warlocks.
Odd, i thought koro was dishing out improved shadowbolt to the mobs - I guess I should be paying more attention to the talent specs of our wiley warlocks.
He was, the point is that if you aren't required to scorch due to either a Warlock or another Mage applying the debuff, there's no real reason to be fire.
How is Ignite handled in boss phases that buff DPS?
For example, lets say you are doing the heart phase of XT and you cast a spell that crits for 10,000 normal but would crit for 20,000 during the heart phase. If I understand the talent correctly, Ignite would then store 8,000 damage to be done over 4 seconds, but what happens if those tick happen during the heart phase? Would the two ticks hit for 4000 each and not be buffed by the heart, or would each of those ticks also be buffed and do 8000 each?
I ask because one of the Moonkin Tier bonuses is said to work like ignite, and I am trying to get a better understanding of the mechanic. Thank you for your help.
How is Ignite handled in boss phases that buff DPS?
For example, lets say you are doing the heart phase of XT and you cast a spell that crits for 10,000 normal but would crit for 20,000 during the heart phase. If I understand the talent correctly, Ignite would then store 8,000 damage to be done over 4 seconds, but what happens if those tick happen during the heart phase? Would the two ticks hit for 4000 each and not be buffed by the heart, or would each of those ticks also be buffed and do 8000 each?
I ask because one of the Moonkin Tier bonuses is said to work like ignite, and I am trying to get a better understanding of the mechanic. Thank you for your help.
Ignite is not further modified by any debuffs, it's 40% of the critical spell's damage. So if you hit for 20k because of a specific buff, the Ignite damage (total) would be 8k.
Ignite is not further modified by any debuffs, it's 40% of the critical spell's damage. So if you hit for 20k because of a specific buff, the Ignite damage (total) would be 8k.
Well Ingite does actually double dip on the Twins debuff.
11/06/09, 12:21 PM
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